Let's talk about CHAOS

Couple of background points on this current debate. It actually is a pretty heated one in the physics, psychology, and philosophical community. That is the debate of whether or not chaos really exists at all. Free will vs. determinism. First off one major correction to some earlier posts. Free will is THE most chaotic concept currently conceived of and if its reality probably the most chaotic component of the universe. Think about it. If there was no free will, everything would be a continual line of cause and effect, including our actions - perfect, measurable order. Choice comes up and suddenly all time changes depending on the decision because the variables have changed, on their own.

Well determinism is simply the idea that everything is casual, even your mind. Yup, your childhood and biology made that bad date night happen, you had no choice in the matter. Everything is just a never ending stream of cause and effect. This would be on the order side of things, because there simply are no mistakes because before the dice even rolled the outcome was going to be exact because of the way you rolled it, because of the way you were going to roll it, and so on and so on.

Determinism started out in the physics community during the Newtonian era. It was a scientists wet dream. Perfect laws and experiments guaranteed. Currently the only theoretical physics not (yet???) determined, that is indeterminate, that is an actual possible element of chaos, is quantum physics. The reason for the "yet???" is that that's basically determinists' argument. It only appears indeterminate because we don't fully understand it at this point. Chaos theory, despite the name, actually relies heavily on determinism. Though I should mention chaos theory in itself is chaotic. No, really, the theory is. Its actually a conglomeration of physics ideas that have anything to do with chaotic looking phenomena. And mostly tries to prove its not actually chaotic. Someone really should rename it and come up with an actual definition. Chances are you know a bit about chaos theory already. Heard of the butterfly effect? That's part of it. And that's what I mean, butterfly wings causing a tsunami sounds pretty chaotic, but scientifically, is perfectly ordered, and determinant. Just kinda weird is all.

Well philosophers, and later psychologists started to catch the determinist wave along side. Philosophers though honestly kind of started this kind of thinking on their own; that is to say, I do not believe were influenced heavily by this line of scientific thought even though many came to agree with it. That is because the seeds were planted in the earliest of western philosophy in Greece, you know the whole logic rules all thing? Well Kant and others took it even further, that logic is all, eventually to the point of there really isn't a subjective reality at all, that its an illusion, much like Buddhist thought. What does that have to do with determinism, free will, order and chaos you ask? Well, the answer is in psychology.

See, in psych conception in the Freudian days, free will was assumed. Consciousness, subconsciousness, ego, id, superego, it was all a battle to see what choices we would make in life. That is, the study of human behavior was a study in how we chose what we chose. Freud had some great ideas. Freud had some downright disturbingly bad ideas. But that was just it, ideas. Now, its becoming a science. With so many advances in neuroscience and psychoneuropharmacology (fancy term for mental health prescriptions), much like for physicists the idea that if you know your psychology you can predict with certainty someones behavior has become very attractive. As it stands, most branches of psychological practice rely on determinism. Freudian, that is psychoanalytic, cognitive-behavioral, and humanistic are the only ones that don't. Psychoanalytical is outdated, humanistic is alternative at best, so that leaves only one actually accepted in the professional community that believes you have any choices at all!

If my opinion hasn't been painfully obvious yet, I think the very idea that free will, that is chaos in the universe does indeed exist. Why? Simple. I think, therefore I am. Seriously. Consciousness would not exist in a truly deterministic universe. It just wouldn't be. If we are the same as rocks, as in that system, why the experience, why the conscious will of choosing a different path. Even if self-delusion, self itself would not be. Subjectivity could not by definition exist. And, as much as I like Kant for getting so close to the truth of things, he was wrong about one major starting point for his theories. You can never be completely objective. Because if you could, you wouldn't exist at all. In short. Chaos is good. It is life.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

.. The universe started in chaos but settled and evolved into an order. ...

In fact the universe started in the most ordered state possible, and has been progressing toward a state of complete entropy.
This is in fact a valid description of "the arrow of Time" itself, it is also the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

Within chaotic systems however, there often appear fleeting "islands of stability", which are entirely probabilistic.

I suppose the journey into the abyss has some highly creative phases.

originally posted by: rom12345

originally posted by: FlyersFan

.. The universe started in chaos but settled and evolved into an order. ...

In fact the universe started in the most ordered state possible, and has been progressing toward a state of complete entropy. ...

Of course this is assuming the universe has a starting and and ending point at all. The votes still out on that one, what with m-theory and more to the point its related multiverse theory. But yeah, as a rule, chaotic elements are multiplicative, over time, they spread. Of course this is from a progressive linear perspective of time, which time just isn't, but I digress.

originally posted by: FlyersFan
Of course this is assuming the universe has a starting and and ending point at all. The votes still out on that one,

If we apply Edwin Hubble findings, certain conclusions become mathematically certain.
M-theory is interesting ,though I wander if it apply's to entropy within the domain of our universe.

As this thread is under Philosophy and Metaphysics:

Philosophically, the implications of an infinitely ordered ,small and massive state, are quite interesting to ponder.
This state must by it's observed consequences be highly unstable.
I suppose it tells us that order is unstable, and chaos approaches equilibrium.

originally posted by: rom12345

originally posted by: FlyersFan
Of course this is assuming the universe has a starting and and ending point at all. The votes still out on that one,

If we apply Edwin Hubble findings, certain conclusions become mathematically certain.
M-theory is interesting ,though I wander if it apply's to entropy within the domain of our universe.

That's exactly what I'm getting at. You might have this universe contracting, many big bangs later, ending, but for all we know the laws of a parallel universe are completely different, hence a different outcome, and in another.... see what I mean? An earlier poster mentioned he believed in infinite big bangs and universes. Though I cannot say I agree with the former, the latter, to me is almost assumed in multiverse theory, if nothing else because every change between dimensions, like chaos, would be multiplicative.

a reply to: hk00107

Perhaps there are many big bangs due to M-Brane collisions.
I believe however, that the entropy, matter ,space and time, are strictly confined within the instantiated universe,
almost as a determining factor as to whether it exist at all.

There is so much we can never really know.
Which brings us to probabilistic mathematics, and chaos theory.

Its poetic in a way... though I would rather like the idea that though this universe may die, countless others are born. An end to it all is rather depressing. Though at this level of theoretical physics 'belief' is the operative word, we really don't have the answers yet, or as you said, ever. Humanity does have its limits after all, especially in this cosmic scale of understanding.

originally posted by: hk00107
Its poetic in a way... though I would rather like the idea that though this universe may die, countless others are born. An end to it all is rather depressing. Though at this level of theoretical physics 'belief' is the operative word, we really don't have the answers yet, or as you said, ever. Humanity does have its limits after all, especially in this cosmic scale of understanding.

Whether it will happen only once, or many times over,
I believe there is profound meaning in the transformation of entropy,
through it, harmonics exist.
Only sentient life could possibly ever contemplate it.
Pantheism, resolves most of the existential inconsistencies.

And I think that's the point of it all, the reason I find something lacking with the deterministic view. There's meaning in life, in death, in all of this. Its not just an equation running its course. It doesn't have to be proven its self-evident. I really have to agree with Einstein's assessment that one can either take everything as a miracle or that nothing is. But I think I've hijacked this thread enough. Anytime one can find meaning or beauty in life its a good thing, so good on you.

originally posted by: hk00107
There's meaning in life, in death, in all of this.

indeed without "life, death, and all of this" , there is no meaning.
it is all on the path toward meaninglessness.

Okay ... If there is such a thing as reincarnation, I'd better come back as a brilliant physicist so that I can follow all this in more depth. Seriously good stuff. Trying to wrap my head around it and dive in ....

absolute order is stagnation/death.
life is a product of chaos.
both chaos and order are necessary for existence.
while law and order are nice and give us stability;
it is from the fires of chaos that beauty arises and life flourishes.

originally posted by: The Benevolent Adversary
absolute order is stagnation/death.
life is a product of chaos.
both chaos and order are necessary for existence.
while law and order are nice and give us stability;
it is from the fires of chaos that beauty arises and life flourishes.

most eloquently beautiful and teutonic.

Agreed. I might have been drumming up chaos a lot, but you need both. Balance in all things and all that. And thanks FlyersFan

a reply to: hk00107

chaos probably rules. ok.

Chaos is cool and all. I mean, it's the reason anything happens, I think. I mean, the way I see it, you can have either no change, or moderate change, or extreme change. No change is a thing or place that.. well... never changes. Not very interesting, eh? I can't imagine never changing. Can you? I have to think time would not even be possible because that implies change. Moderate change is what allows things to move and grow. It makes things interesting. Now we can start talking about lifeforms such as ourselves. Extreme change doesn't allow for enough order for lifeforms to exist. Nothing has a name where there's extreme change. Things just change too fast for that. Extreme change is like the noise on a TV screen.

I think the universe is good when times are good, but it's bad when times are bad. Some people have a high tolerance for conflict and pain and can feel good in tough times. Some don't fair so well. Generally, when a person feels good inside, the world (and universe) looks better to them.

It's a wild and dangerous place sometimes. Some make it, others don't.

I want to bring up this video:

Com'on guys/gals, chaos reigns where mind in absent. The 2 don't go together. Its that dualality thing, to keep it simple. I thought this was accepted by now.

All things in moderation -- Aristotle

One owes it to society to keep his affairs in order -- Jaques Barzun

Our brains are hard wired to perceive the universe as cause and effect. Immanuel Kant

Without chaos is there free will?

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Without chaos is there free will?

A resounding NO. If you skim my super-long post several posts back, to me that is why chaos is a good thing, and what this topic is really about, free will vs. determinism.

@jonnywhite: I like your perspective on things. That perspective itself makes a difference, and that balance in dualistic forces is important. I wholeheartedly agree.

@Shema: Actually I'd say its the opposite. The mind IS a chaotic thing, and order rules in its absence. Without the mind, Everything can be broken down to mathematical equations and cause and effect. The will and the word gives way to different directions, purpose, meaning.

originally posted by: Shema
chaos reigns where mind in absent. The 2 don't go together.

That's true. A quiet and ordered mind can do great things.
A mind in the turmoil of chaos is just a mess.