Europe Medical Care is Better than the US. Time to End the Myth.

reply to post by raymundoko


I'm not arguing if the US is "number 1", but rather countering the argument put forward that "nearly all" medical advancements, as previously claimed, are the result of the US. You're own source supports this assertion, so what point are you trying to make exactly other than that you are a brash, arrogant Yank?

And yes, I meant foolish, but the spell correcter on my browser seems to have chosen the wrong word when I got some letters round the wrong way and slipped me by.

Did it make you feel better policing my grammar, I hope so, I wouldn't want you to think for one second that you're not superior in any way and your position as "number 1" in everything remains unchallenged.

reply to post by stumason


It didn't make me feel better, I just wanted to make sure you intended to call me dimwitted.

reply to post by raymundoko


Free markets destroyed the US economy. Solid business regulation, high taxes on the rich and consumer and labor protection is what built up the US economy in the first place, back in the fifties and the sixties.

If you knew anything, you wouldn't use the heritage group as a source, it is nothing but a pro-corporate banker propaganda machine. That is where FOX gets their news.

I get it, you are another corporatist who thinks banks and insurance companies can do no wrong no matter how much evidence proves you wrong.

reply to post by poet1b


Wow. Your history is horrible.

reply to post by raymundoko


Where is my history wrong?

Read it again, and get some more schooling.

While you are at it, look at how free market schemes destroyed the economies of Ireland and Iceland, and back in the day, Mongolia. Maybe you will succeed in posting something respectable.

Europe socialized healthcare is better than Insurance for profit based healthcare. Businesses are in business to make money, when they have eliminated all competition, as is the case in the US, they make more money by providing poor coverage, calling for expensive tests and turning our doctors into drug pushers, and providing insurance that doesn't actually cover anything.

While the US used to lead the world in research, we are losing ground, because ancient giant corps have bought up all the small corporations that innovated the tech, and these giant corps are bureaucratic nightmares. When you look at where Europe is going as a whole, they are starting to kick our behinds.

The only people who don't see this are the people who take the Heritage Foundation seriously. The world is laughing at you.

reply to post by poet1b


As an International Tour Director who travels a lot and has clients get sick on the road and even die.... Let me give you two perspectives.

I was in Morocco with a group a few years ago and the day we were leaving, one of my passengers fell backwards at the airport, had a heart attack and died. I was standing right there with him. Me and another person started CPR, but it really didn't matter. We were in a country where all the great CPR in the world couldn't save this guy. That's because the doctor that showed up at the scene had no life saving equipment. The airport had no life saving equipment. The ambulance that pulled up had no life saving equipment.

No one could save this man's life because of the poor condition of healthcare and training in the country we were in. Trust me, you don't want to have a heart attack in Morocco.

But contrast this to some excellent treatment my passengers have received in as far flung places as the Atacama Desert in Chile or on Easter Island. We went to modern hospitals or clinics, were treated fairly and kindly by the staff, the right diagnoses were made, we were given medication and sent on our way and my passengers improved. All this for under $100.

What I do know from my travels is that many, many countries have good health care for a reasonable cost. I don't know that I'd want to have major surgery at any of those places, but hey, for the flu? Perfectly fine.

In the interest of Cherry Picking, here's a couple from my own experience.

Two years ago I had to fight tooth and nail to get the Insurance Company to pay for my wife's Chemotherapy. I didn't, however, have to fight them tooth and nail to take our premiums for the past seven years.

Last year, back in Dear Old Blighty, my ninety three year old Grandmother underwent a Heart valve replacement. Four days later she was home, speaking to me on the phone and her voice sounded stronger than it had in years. She had a three month wait before hand to make sure she had a good chance of surviving the operation but the only problem she faced was the shocking Parking at the Hospital.

America needs Single Payer.

reply to post by BritofTexas


Don't talk about the parking - jeebus...

I went last year to pick up the missus from Hospital, found a space (bear in mind I have an A6, so it's quite a big car) and went to move in. Some genius architect thought it was a good idea to place a pillar (or more accurately place the bay) inside the yellow markings, but hidden enough behind the 4x4 in the next bay I didn't see it... Cost me £120 to get the yellow paint off my car and have it touched up...

My son thought it was bloody hilarious - as did the chap sat behind me in his car waiting for me to finish parking...

reply to post by poet1b


I can only laugh...

raymundoko

Oh yeah, it's soooooooooo cheap.

42% tax rate in Germany (Over 60% of the population pays this much), 45% for wealthy. The poor still pay a tax rate of 18%. (And everyone, including the poor pay the 5.5)

Hey, I have to give up half my income, and a 5.5% "Solidarity Tax" on top of that...but hey....super cheap yo.

For comparison: In the USA the poor pay NO TAXES. In fact, about 40% of people in the USA pay NO TAXES. The middle class has an average effective tax rate of 15% (they get taxed at 23-27%, but when deductions etc come in to play you get the effective rate). The upper middle class pay an effective tax rate around 20% and the wealthy (250k+) pay an effective tax rate between 30 and 40%. The wealthy actually pay 70% of the total tax income in the USA. So the rich, despite what you believe, actually pay the majority of the taxes.

I know where you're coming from, I honestly do!

So please stay with me here. As an American who has lived overseas and spent some time in Germany also, I honestly think it comes very close to breaking even in terms of getting what you PAY for. We all need healthcare, some use it less than others, but it's been shown that in the US, those who avoid medical care and then go to a hospital when they are badly ill, end up costing much MORE than the preventative healthcare would have cost. Also look up salaries for skilled trades in Germany.

If one keeps 58% of €100,000 it's still more than keeping 80% of $80,000 dollars.

The bottom line is we Americans lose out before we even pay the taxes. Our salaries are lower, our standard of living is lower, our happiness is lower, our life expectancy, the protection of our economy is MUCH LOWER than Germany. The little hidden costs of living in the US add up quickly! Germans might pay what seems like high taxes to Americans, but they get MUCH MORE for their money, on top of the fact they are better paid for the same jobs anyway.

And then lets talk about basic things like food and clothing. The cost of groceries in the US never shocked me until moving back here from Europe. While eating out is expensive in Europe, eating at home is VERY affordable. Basic goods are noticeably more affordable.

It's all relative.

But I am always the first to correct people when they say "FREE" healthcare.

Visit Germany sometime, you will be impressed.

reply to post by raymundoko


Good to hear you are laughing with us.

Nice that someone brings some humor to the thread.

reply to post by 8675309jenny


These days I get little to nothing for my tax dollar. I can't think of anything I get for income taxes paid. The military doesn't protect our borders, they protect the interests of the ICBs. Interest on the debt goes to the ICBs. Medicaid goes to subsidize illegal immigration flowing across our unprotected borders, which is allowed in order to create an illegal supply of cheap labor flooding the market. None of the fed agencies work to protect my liberties, and that is what the US fed gov is supposed to do.

State and local taxes are pretty bad these days as well. Again, very little comes back in services.

And the finance market takes a 40% bite out of the US economy.

reply to post by 8675309jenny


I lived there...it costs more to live there than it does to live in NYC. I've lived in several EU countries as I'm an Irish citizen. (Dual cit)

The pay for my job in Germany is identical to the USA even with the conversion rate. So I'm far better off here.

Also I have no idea where you are grocery shopping...I get groceries for a family of 4 in SoCal for 100 a week...it's mostly produce. You do know the USA has some of the cheapest food in the world right?

www.dailyfinance.com...#!slide=988841

Edit: let me be clear...Germany is fing awesome. But I was there a year in 4 cities (visited everywhere, but 2-4 months in each city) and it's pretty expensive

reply to post by aLLeKs


The poor can't afford Obama care. The deductibles are just to high. It doesn't cover vision or dental. A surgery that I need is considered elective because it is to repair a botched surgery that I got because, get this, it isn't considered a permanent injury because it can be repaired with surgery, a surgery that will cost me $5000 out of pocket.

stumason
reply to post by BritofTexas

 

Don't talk about the parking - jeebus...

I went last year to pick up the missus from Hospital, found a space (bear in mind I have an A6, so it's quite a big car) and went to move in. Some genius architect thought it was a good idea to place a pillar (or more accurately place the bay) inside the yellow markings, but hidden enough behind the 4x4 in the next bay I didn't see it... Cost me £120 to get the yellow paint off my car and have it touched up...

My son thought it was bloody hilarious - as did the chap sat behind me in his car waiting for me to finish parking...

Paying for parking has become standard at many U.S. hospitals too. When my ex took me to the Royal Hospital in Bournemouth for my endoscopy (a procedure I could not get here at home because it cost like 700 bucks, not counting all the other fees with it), he was ranting about the atrocity of now having to pay for parking at NHS hospitals. I explained to him when I went to visit my mom in the hospital back in Seattle, it cost me like 7 bucks to park for the two hours I was there visiting. On top of the fact, of course, my mother, who still had pneumonia, was to be released two days later even though she was still feeble, due to the fact she was homeless and uninsured, and the hospital really wasn't going to do anything beyond stabilize her. I told the ex to stop whinging about the freaking 2 quid for parking and be thankful that would be the only cost incurred that day.

Hell, I remember the cow he had when the NHS raised the co-pay on prescriptions to 7 pounds from 6.50. I shook my head, remembering how my mom sometimes had to put jewelry in hock at a pawn shop to get her 182 dollars a month meds until her next social security check arrived. When people would complain about the NHS, I'd share some of the tales of the uninsured from home. That would usually shut them up.

I never had any complaints about the NHS. In fact, I got more thorough care there than back home. When I was having severe gut problems, they were running tests and trying treatments that U.S. doctors didn't even mention due to my low income and uninsured status. Though I had a number of complaints while living in England (excessive CCTV cameras everywhere, RFID chips in our bins, speed cams, strict firearms regulations, chavs, and ridiculous EU interference), the NHS was definitely not one of them.

calstorm
reply to post by aLLeKs

 

The poor can't afford Obama care. The deductibles are just to high. It doesn't cover vision or dental. A surgery that I need is considered elective because it is to repair a botched surgery that I got because, get this, it isn't considered a permanent injury because it can be repaired with surgery, a surgery that will cost me $5000 out of pocket.

Obamacare is a travesty. I don't even understand how anyone can compare it to the systems the Europeans have. It is not different than forcing people to have car insurance. In fact, it's worse, because health insurance is used more, and is more expensive, than auto coverage. The only people I see benefiting from Obamacare are insurance companies. I don't know how in the hell anyone could have thought Obamacare would help the poor and insured. Poor people couldn't afford healthcare before, what makes them think, now that it's forced, it is going to be any more affordable?

Utterly ridiculous.

raymundoko
reply to post by 8675309jenny

 

I lived there...it costs more to live there than it does to live in NYC. I've lived in several EU countries as I'm an Irish citizen. (Dual cit)

The pay for my job in Germany is identical to the USA even with the conversion rate. So I'm far better off here.

Also I have no idea where you are grocery shopping...I get groceries for a family of 4 in SoCal for 100 a week...it's mostly produce. You do know the USA has some of the cheapest food in the world right?

www.dailyfinance.com...#!slide=988841

Edit: let me be clear...Germany is fing awesome. But I was there a year in 4 cities (visited everywhere, but 2-4 months in each city) and it's pretty expensive

edit on 26-2-2014 by raymundoko because: (no reason given)

In Germany I generally shopped at REWE, in the UK usually Tesco, and FarmFoods. In the US, I shop at Publix. Specifically I noticed Milk was cheaper in Europe as well as sausages, cheese, oatmeal, cereal (when did cereal in the US start costing $5 a box?!??). All of these items you can easily buy in Europe for £1, or €1.50, but they will cost you $3-4 in the U.S. It adds up to an extra $50 a week or more easily. Also in the UK, you will notice 2for1 and 2for£1 tags up and down every aisle all over the place. 2for1's are much more rare here.

I also like how things just frickin work in Germany!! Scotland too. Paperwork for anything is cake, very little headache for regular things. Zero tax on private car sales, no transfer fees, just pay your road tax (cheap) and you're done.

Coming from Florida it was like a zen revelation. Florida has a relatively high cost of living and much lower standard of life than most of the rest of US, so I do understand there are much better places thtoughout the US (been to many of them).

Last note, I am a huge fan of Germany's protectionist policies on import tax which protect German jobs and also consumer protection (mandatory 2 year manufacturer/store warranty, so it deters companies selling Chinese garbage)

Edit: let me be clear...Germany is fing awesome. But I was there a year in 4 cities (visited everywhere, but 2-4 months in each city) and it's pretty expensive

You are aware that walmart once tried to establish itself in Europe, but FAILED because it couldn't compete with the cheap costs of food etc. in Europe? (ALDI anyone???).

Food costs here (several countries in Europe) are ridiculous low. When someone shopped at REWE, ugh..this is a really high-priced chain...but there are countless ALDI-like grocery stores where food is really incredible cheap. You can give me €15 right now and I come home with 4 full grocery bags including beers and wine, cat food, coffee, human food : )

6x 0.5L German beer six pack, €1.80 (can is 0.37, sometimes on sale for 0.29), yes I am talking half liter cans, not 0.33
250g coffee, €1.15, milk 1L €0.70, 1 large box conflakes (500g or something) €1.20. Bottle water (1.5L, here in Spain....€0.15).
400g ground beef (hamburger meat) €2, pack of noodles (500g) €0.60 etc...etc... 1.5L pop/tonic whatever €0.50 etc.

Lots IS expensive here in Europe..obviously utilities/gas etc...but groceries are definitely not.

One issue also is that "cheap" food in the states usually means really cheap, processed foods like from Walmart. For healthier, organic foods you have to pay a fortune in the States. The "cheap" food in Europe is not necessarily low quality, so it's way cheaper to buy "good" food here.

I don't know how anyone in there right mind could seriously consider the US health System better than Europe anyway?

I imagine only untraveled people and pure propaganda would make you think so!

NoRulesAllowed

Edit: let me be clear...Germany is fing awesome. But I was there a year in 4 cities (visited everywhere, but 2-4 months in each city) and it's pretty expensive

You are aware that walmart once tried to establish itself in Europe, but FAILED because it couldn't compete with the cheap costs of food etc. in Europe? (ALDI anyone???).

Food costs here (several countries in Europe) are ridiculous low. When someone shopped at REWE, ugh..this is a really high-priced chain...but there are countless ALDI-like grocery stores where food is really incredible cheap. You can give me €15 right now and I come home with 4 full grocery bags including beers and wine, cat food, coffee, human food : )

6x 0.5L German beer six pack, €1.80 (can is 0.37, sometimes on sale for 0.29), yes I am talking half liter cans, not 0.33
250g coffee, €1.15, milk 1L €0.70, 1 large box conflakes (500g or something) €1.20. Bottle water (1.5L, here in Spain....€0.15).
400g ground beef (hamburger meat) €2, pack of noodles (500g) €0.60 etc...etc... 1.5L pop/tonic whatever €0.50 etc.

Lots IS expensive here in Europe..obviously utilities/gas etc...but groceries are definitely not.

One issue also is that "cheap" food in the states usually means really cheap, processed foods like from Walmart. For healthier, organic foods you have to pay a fortune in the States. The "cheap" food in Europe is not necessarily low quality, so it's way cheaper to buy "good" food here.

edit on 32014RuWednesdayAmerica/Chicago49AMWednesdayWednesday by NoRulesAllowed because: (no reason given)

You are aware Walmart just rebranded to ASDA which is one of the biggest supermarkets in the UK right?

There are ASDAS all over here.