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Europe Medical Care is Better than the US. Time to End the Myth.

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posted on Feb, 24 2014 @ 08:57 PM
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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

neo96

Because they have a different diet.

Diet does effect 'healthcare'.


and in many cases, their diet is actually worse than ours. They still end up living longer.

You know what else effects life expectancy and health care? Smoking. Many of those countries have very high rates of smokers. They still outlive us. Can't put that down to diet.

You know what else efefcts health? Pollution levels. Much of Europe is far more polluted because of the higher population densities and limited natural resources. Yet they still outlive us.


Governments also effect healthcare.


Well, duh.


Fiat currency also effect healthcare.


Like the one we currently are using?


People can't compare healthcare systems of other countries.

Because no country is the same.


Life Expectancy Rates by Country
Maternal Mortality Rates by Country (Wow. We have the same maternal death rate as Iran. Yay, us!

Infant Mortality Rates by country
Country Tobacco Rates

All of the above lists are very good indicators combined of a country's state of health care for its citizens.

Yeah, you can compare healthcare systems amongst countries. Some are great, some suck. The NHS is great. The Spanish system sucked.

Our system, or lack of one, sucks. And funny enough, we spend more money per person on our healthcare, and more of our budget on healthcare, even though we don't have universal coverage. Because of profit driven nature of healthcare in this country.


Hehe... Interesting how the CIA posts Denmark as a predominant evangelic lutheran society with 95% of us as following that church.

Here's a tip..... Danish churches are in crisis because we dont use them. We are by now most of all atheists and the most religious people we have here are the immigrant muslims and christian psycopaths like the mormons, jehovas witnesses and so on and luckily there arent too many of the latter around. Then theres the small amount of sect psycos like scientologists.... But most of all we are atheists... To be honest, I dont know a single person in my life that practises christianity.




posted on Feb, 24 2014 @ 09:42 PM
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neilarm
reply to post by poet1b
 


I worked in an international airport within the US and I never once heard any foreigner state that medical care was better outside of the US. What I did hear a lot about was that in European countries when children are injured playing sports they get to be crippled for life becuase the basic joint repairing surgeries offered here are not offered elsewhere becuase it's not life threatening. The majority of people who mentioned this sort of thing were well off retired people coming here for surgery to repair their knees and hips becuase they could not get that type of medical care in their own countries and they would plead with us to do what ever we could to stop obamacare. Nearly all advancements in medical care in the last 50 years has come from the US there is no way our system is less beneficial than anywhere else. It doesn't always get paid for here but it is not denied to anyone, obama care will reverse that. It will be always paid for but basic and essential care will be denied to everyone.


Kid's crippled for life? No joint replacement surgeries except in the U.S.? Lol, what a load of BS.

My ex's son just got hip and knee replacement last year. On the NHS. Our neighbor's grandson, who screwed up his ankle playing soccer, had it repaired on the NHS. When I was there, I certainly did not see schoolyards full of cripple children.

Even in Spain, as crappy as the system was there, people got joint replacements all the time.

In my whole time over in Europe, I never met anyone who had to, or wanted to, come to the U.S. for necessary treatments for anything. In fact, what people talked about more than anything was how horrified they were learning what the cost of medical treatment in the U.S. was. A friend had a daughter living in L.A., and told me about her daughter getting billed something like 1500 dollars for an ambulance ride alone to the hospital, not counting the ER bill, doctor's bills, test bills, ect. Most people over there are horrified we do not have any universal system. One of the biggest reasons my ex didn't want to live here was the ridiculous costs of medical treatment and insurance.

And B S that healthcare doesn't get denied to anyone. Beyond basic stabilization, if you ain't got the money, doctors and hospitals ain't gonna do anything for you beyond the most basic treatment. Happens all the time. I already stated how it happened for my mother.

Kids in this country would be more likely to be denied joint surgery because their parents couldn't pay for it. The only way many can get it done is through charities and children's hospitals, and even then, parents get hit with bankrupting bills.



posted on Feb, 24 2014 @ 09:44 PM
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reply to post by flice
 


It is not really a matter of people actually practicing a religion. It is what they report on census/statistics data. I know many people who are agnostic or even atheist who still put down the religion of their parents, or the religion they were brought up in, regardless of whether or not they actually believe or practice it.



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 12:50 AM
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I have always laughed at the Americans (I'm born and raised in the US myself) who slam the NHS or Canadian medical care... talking out their asses about some mythical friend of a friend who had to wait 3 years to see a doctor.

Christmas 2013 I was in the UK with my Scottish wife and made an appointment to see a doctor 3 days after I got off the plane. I had forgotten about a meeting I had that conflicted so I called and rescheduled for the next week. My appt. was at 5pm, I was called in at 5:30 (American doctors have almost always been 30-45min late with my appointments too). Saw the doctor, had a few tests done and paid my £40 which covered the visit and the bloodwork.

I am not a UK citizen, not even a resident. I was told if I wanted an MRI I would have to wait a few weeks, but I could also just go somewhere private and pay cash (same as the U.S.) and the cash price was slightly less than the U.S.

I looked into having an MRI here at home and it was $240 cash. Which is quite funny, because a few years ago I had 2 MRI's for my spine and my insurance refused to cover them even though the policy clearly should have. So the office came after me personally for $2600.

$2,600 for TWO FECKIN MRI'S!!!! These were plain old non-contrast MRI's, just lay in the machine, bang-bang-ding-whiirr-zing-ring-silly noises and done.

Oh and guess what, $2,600 was the price that my insurance had somehow "negotiated". LOL as if insurance is some big Italian guy with a bat who's "gonna make yous an offer yous can't refuse". But... that IS what they are! common thugs...

So I called the MRI place directly and told them if they wanted to ask for a reasonable amount of money, I would consider paying the bill. They declined, and I couldn't give a sh!te really.

F ü C K this whole corrupt con-artist system.



Interesting reading:
Bluecross paid $1,650 for my $8,000 MRI healthcaresavvy.wbur.org...

How much for an MRI $500/$5,000 ? www.kaiserhealthnews.org...
edit on 25-2-2014 by 8675309jenny because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 01:20 AM
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neilarm
reply to post by poet1b
 


I worked in an international airport within the US and I never once heard any foreigner state that medical care was better outside of the US. What I did hear a lot about was that in European countries when children are injured playing sports they get to be crippled for life becuase the basic joint repairing surgeries offered here are not offered elsewhere becuase it's not life threatening. The majority of people who mentioned this sort of thing were well off retired people coming here for surgery to repair their knees and hips becuase they could not get that type of medical care in their own countries and they would plead with us to do what ever we could to stop obamacare. Nearly all advancements in medical care in the last 50 years has come from the US there is no way our system is less beneficial than anywhere else. It doesn't always get paid for here but it is not denied to anyone, obama care will reverse that. It will be always paid for but basic and essential care will be denied to everyone.


I can't fathom how that could be- I have inlaws who had joint repair type of surgeries here. Bad knees run in my husbands family, so both his mother and brother have had pretty extensive surgery. There is an american couple I know who just built a house and moved in to a nearby village because he came here to get a hip replacement, and the experience convinced them they need to change countries. He had the surgery quicker, and even though he was not covered by the national social security, it still cost him less then what the deductable would be in the US. He also had the doctor calling him weekly to keep up on how he was doing.

Why would foriegners plead to stop Obamacare? It has nothing in common with the healthcare systems in Europe...? Or does it? Is there a european country that has a similar system? It is not like the one in France, at least.



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 02:16 AM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


I wonder that this is still news for you..

Watch "sicko" or is Michael Moore to "left wing" for you?

In germany no one has to worry about health care.
Every one has it.....Its not expensive. And it works.

At least i got over a lot with it.

I think i already cost the health care system between 100 000 and 1000 000 euros.. (i had many operations)



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 04:04 AM
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lakesidepark
That data sounds impressive. HOWEVER - is it realistic? Does this data represent all general care (which may be improved) or serious medical conditions? Does this data also reflect areas where universal health care has NOT done as well?

Etc.

[quote/]

Hiya mate. I think the state the USA is in now is too far beyond salvaging and as nobler and correct those and further questions are, even the most basic epidemiology isn't going to help.

Just take everyone else's word that the USA has crap public healthcare. If you are a citizen of the USA, I think you should come down to Australia and get very sick. That isn't the insult it first appears to be.



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 10:54 AM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


US healthcare insurance companies will strongly disagree with you and can come up with all sorts of statistics and experts to the contrary; and point out how their OWN rates increased because of obamacare which is the start of nascent US universal healthcare.



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 02:10 PM
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reply to post by reject
 


US healthcare insurance companies wrote Obama Care, and it made it as horrible of a policy as they could get passed. The insurance companies have the HoRs in their back pockets. They practically run the world, and they keep making things worse.

Wake up people.



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 02:33 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


You are so uneducated on this matter.

The free market made the USA the greatest country on earth. Those who lead the country failed the free market, not the other way around. What we are moving towards is crony capitalism.

Your argument about the failing of the free market is INVALID since 3 of the 6 countries you listed have a more free market than the USA and are considered the most free market economies in the world:

www.heritage.org...

Canada, New Zealand, Switzerland.

So yeah. Good one there guy. You totally showed the free market how bad they suck...by using them as an example of how well they do.



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 02:41 PM
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reply to post by kauskau
 


Oh yeah, it's soooooooooo cheap.

42% tax rate in Germany (Over 60% of the population pays this much), 45% for wealthy. The poor still pay a tax rate of 18%. (And everyone, including the poor pay the 5.5)

Hey, I have to give up half my income, and a 5.5% "Solidarity Tax" on top of that...but hey....super cheap yo.

For comparison: In the USA the poor pay NO TAXES. In fact, about 40% of people in the USA pay NO TAXES. The middle class has an average effective tax rate of 15% (they get taxed at 23-27%, but when deductions etc come in to play you get the effective rate). The upper middle class pay an effective tax rate around 20% and the wealthy (250k+) pay an effective tax rate between 30 and 40%. The wealthy actually pay 70% of the total tax income in the USA. So the rich, despite what you believe, actually pay the majority of the taxes.

Edit: There is a misconception about the rich paying a very low effective rate based on Mitt Romney's tax returns when running for president. His effective rate was 17%. However, he donated a HUGE portion of his income to charities and the rest of the income was from capital gains tax. The rate (can't be deducted down) is a constant % and he paid that amount. He had no other income so he didn't have to pay a higher tax rate. All economists agree that the lower a capital gains tax the better an economy does. Both Republican and Democratic presidents have strived hard to keep this rate as low as possible.
edit on 25-2-2014 by raymundoko because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 02:54 PM
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raymundoko
reply to post by poet1b
 


You are so uneducated on this matter.

The free market made the USA the greatest country on earth. Those who lead the country failed the free market, not the other way around. What we are moving towards is crony capitalism.

Your argument about the failing of the free market is INVALID since 3 of the 6 countries you listed have a more free market than the USA and are considered the most free market economies in the world:

www.heritage.org...

Canada, New Zealand, Switzerland.

So yeah. Good one there guy. You totally showed the free market how bad they suck...by using them as an example of how well they do.

Moving towards crony capitalism? Don't you mean knee deep in it.
There has not been a free market.

The countries rated by Mercer was not done on health care standards. New Zealand is not a free market, the PM [ an investment banker for wall st with a blind trust], just took New Zealand's most profitable public assets and sold them privately .
New Zealand's health system is "ill' , it is run by The Corporation[Bank of England] if you are wealthy and have a good dr you get treatment if not [with the growing wealth inequality] healthcare provision drops off to nothing for some.



edit on 25-2-2014 by BDBinc because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 03:07 PM
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neilarm
reply to post by poet1b
 


I worked in an international airport within the US and I never once heard any foreigner state that medical care was better outside of the US. What I did hear a lot about was that in European countries when children are injured playing sports they get to be crippled for life becuase the basic joint repairing surgeries offered here are not offered elsewhere becuase it's not life threatening.


Well, that's just crap! You've made that up, because I know full well the NHS provides for joint repair as I've had it done, as has my father. Both of us damaged our knees playing Rugby and have had treatment for it. Yes, you might have to wait a few months for an appointment, but it is still covered.

Hip and other joint replacements are pretty standard stuff for Old peeps on the NHS and have been going on since the 1960's. Each year, there are approx. 160,000 replacements.


neilarm
The majority of people who mentioned this sort of thing were well off retired people coming here for surgery to repair their knees and hips becuase they could not get that type of medical care in their own countries and they would plead with us to do what ever we could to stop obamacare.


See, now I know you're making it up. Most people aren't even aware of "Obamacare", much less would they "plead" to an airport worker to stop it. In fact most people of that age bracket, in the UK at least, are even more defensive about the NHS than the younger generations.


neilarm
Nearly all advancements in medical care in the last 50 years has come from the US there is no way our system is less beneficial than anywhere else.


Once again, total bollocks and a stereotypical response from a Yank who think the Sun revolves around them. I think you'll find that "most" medical advancements in the past 50 years have come from a wide variety of sources, not the US. A good deal of medical advancements and research going on now is in fact being done in the UK and around Europe, not the US.



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 03:42 PM
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reply to post by stumason
 


/buzzer wroooooonnnngggg

The USA has been the medical leader for longer than most people on earth have been alive.

www.forbes.com...

en.wikipedia.org...

The UK is on the list of innovators, but notice the distinct lack of other European countries.

The USA literally spends 1000% more (10 times) than the UK on medical research and development...It has consistently led in medical innovation and clinical medicine.

Edit: orthoinfo.aaos.org... 285k in the USA

And so you are aware, people come to the USA from the UK all the time for cancer treatment. We are the #1 country for Medical Tourism when it comes to getting treated for cancer. Your NHS rationing body has regularly denied cancer treatment outside of outdated procedures. A good example is when people want to try to get an updated form of treatment (because old treatments are not working and they are dying) and are denied:

www.theguardian.com...
www.telegraph.co.uk...
www.express.co.uk...

So yeah. F*ck your death panel.

Not to mention your NHS is broke:

www.theguardian.com...
edit on 25-2-2014 by raymundoko because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 04:00 PM
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reply to post by BDBinc
 


If you really think we are knee deep in crony capitalism you are woefully misguided. Sure, there have been some major examples of it which were highlighted in the Media (See the Auto Industry) but for the most part America is in the top 20 for a free Market economy. To put that in perspective the USA used to be consistently in the top 10. During the Regan era we were in the top 5.

The USA is SLIPPING more and more away from a free market towards Crony Capitalism, and the economy falters as it happens. As it slips socialists are able to attack it and say it is the fault of a free market economy, when in reality it is socialistic policies which cause crony capitalism to usurp free market capitalism.



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 04:03 PM
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My only issue with everyone comparing U.S. healthcare to another country is the comparison is usually NOT apples to apples. Denmark has like 6 million people. Sweden has maybe 10 million people. America has about 72 million people on Medicaid, which is pretty close to free health care. And on top of that America is currently providing 47 million people with free food (stamps). That's 3x the population of Denmark AND Sweden. Getting free food. And a lot of times those people also get Medicaid, Welfare or Unemployment, etc. And the population base is not densely clustered. If America had a population of 10 million social programs would be a whole different ball game.



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 04:28 PM
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reply to post by jjkenobi
 


I couldn't agree more.



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 04:41 PM
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raymundoko
reply to post by BDBinc
 


If you really think we are knee deep in crony capitalism you are woefully misguided. Sure, there have been some major examples of it which were highlighted in the Media (See the Auto Industry) but for the most part America is in the top 20 for a free Market economy. To put that in perspective the USA used to be consistently in the top 10. During the Regan era we were in the top 5.

The USA is SLIPPING more and more away from a free market towards Crony Capitalism, and the economy falters as it happens. As it slips socialists are able to attack it and say it is the fault of a free market economy, when in reality it is socialistic policies which cause crony capitalism to usurp free market capitalism.

Trace the big businesses & see who owns and drives govt policy from the top.
This goes back hundreds of years the free market ideal was not in place as the same 13 families controlled trade/wars/production even back then.

If it weren't for "disinformationists" I wouldn't know there were still people who say they believed there was a free market or that and caring about each other /socialism is negative ( obamacare is not any form of socialism as it was drafted by insurance corps ).



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 04:52 PM
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reply to post by raymundoko
 


You're own source article says that just over 50% of new medicines have been developed in the US - far, far less than you're claim of "nearly all", which is what I was disputing.

Also, the article appears to be only concerned with medication, which is only part of the medical research field.

However, the UK consistently pioneers new surgical treatments and has arguably the worlds leading renal centre in Guys St Thomas Hospital, London, for example. We are also a a world leader in stem cell research and other new, alternative therapies that don't rely on pumping the body full of drugs. That is a singular example of a constant stream of health research being done in the UK.

Secondly, the article also points out the decline in US medical research owing to much more favourable tax and regulatory regimes elsewhere - we don't have legions of God botherers complaining about stem cell research, for example.

As for people going to the UK for treatment - this is usually terminal patients who are looking for one last chance and go to the US to try out new and largely untested treatments as guinea pigs (who are charged a fortune as well).

Many do not come back - I myself have paid into three funds in the past 2 years set up to send kiddies over to the States to try out new therapies for their rare and incurable cancers, all of which died. The doctors made a nice buck out of offering false hope, though....

It is also deeply misleading of you to claim the NHS only offers "outdated" treatments. The NHS has actually pioneered a great many medical therapies and you'd know this if you didn't dig your sources from the gutter press which is always eager to stick the knife into the NHS over a couple of individual and highly complex cases.

In the examples you have provided, the NHS refused to fund the drugs because the evidence it offered any real benefit was limited - in most patients it only delays the inevitable by weeks at huge cost. There is nothing stopping them, however, paying for it themselves or, if they have health insurance through their employer, which many do, the chances are it is available there.

It is also worth noting that the bulk of your source articles are from several years ago at the height of the recession and just after the free-spending Labour party were ousted, so the whole way the NHS is funded was under review. Also, there is some from 2008 when NICE took a battering for it's decisions on drugs - guidance has since been changed as a result.

The NHS is NOT however, broke. It cannot go broke - individual trusts can be wound up if they do run out of cash, but this doesn't mean they shut the doors to the Hospitals. Usually, another Trust will take over until it gets sorted.

On a final note, you might think the circumvention of the censors to swear might be cool, or emphasise your point but it just makes you look like a foolhardy, low IQ moron. You clearly don't actually know what you're talking about and seem to have your opinions based on media stories - which will always blow isolated incidents out of context and way out of proportion.

As I said before, the NHS treats millions of people, so finding single examples of whatever you want is easy - I could do the same about your system where people are denied treatments on their insurance or have to sell their family home to pay for life saving treatment - I know which system I'd prefer.

In fact, a recent study shows that 2/3rds of NHS staff would "happily recommend" the NHS to their family and friends over private treatment. 65% were happy to recommend with only 11% saying they wouldn't, the remainder being in the middle camp.
edit on 25/2/14 by stumason because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 25 2014 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by stumason
 


Nope. In medical treatments and devices USA is #1...wrong again.

You might have a good hospital who does well in R&D, but it pales in comparison to the R&D of the USA. I linked articles which show that.

And over 50% of the entire planet...one country carrying over half the weight when it comes to the medical field.

Edit: I think you meant to say foolish, not foolhardy. One is calling me dimwitted, the other recklessly bold...so who has the low IQ?
edit on 25-2-2014 by raymundoko because: (no reason given)




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