Europe Medical Care is Better than the US. Time to End the Myth.

reply to post by poet1b


That's now. China took over in 1997. So you fell for propaganda not me. The left tries to prop hong Kong up as a failed free market, however it hasn't been one for almost 20 years.

From 1960-1997 it was the most free economy in the world and had one of the lowest poverty rates.

reply to post by raymundoko


Then why did Hong Kong's markets collapse in 73?

Hong Kong has always had high poverty rates. Its success has mainly came for a continuous supply of cheap labor from China and other countries, and British influence making it the door to China. This is nothing but more right wing propaganda.

web.swk.cuhk.edu.hk...

The poverty has has always been much higher than Europe, and it is continuing to go up.

Hong Kong has never had the standards of living that people enjoy in Europe. Hong Kong living isn't even as good as S Korea, whose formula to success is the same formula used by Europe, and the US back in the day.

Effective regulation, with a mix of social programs is the proven route to stable economic prosperity for average people.

Maybe Hong Kong is your dream, but it sure isn't mine.

I'll take the 6 weeks of vacation and affordable healthcare.

reply to post by poet1b


Are you serious? Their market didn't collapse. There was a bear market that affected the entire world and originated in the USA. The UK was hit the hardest. What the heck are you reading that is giving you such bad data? The 72-74 market crisis is well documented.

I also never said Hong Kong now was my dream. It hasn't been the same since 1997. Pre china the poverty level was 5-10% Lower than Europe. Post china it is 20%. You're using data from the last 10 years to prop up an invalid argument.

Also I get 8.8 hours per pay period PTO and can take up to 12 consecutive weeks off if I put in the proper request. I can take 3 consecutive weeks off with notice. I pay 120 a pay period for PPO insurance for a family of 4. I got 2 weeks non PTO paid paternity leave when my wife had pur children.

So I already have what you are looking for. Perhaps you should get a new job with a better employer? Or perhaps you should just move since you hate the USA?

poet1b
reply to post by 8675309jenny

 

It is really sad how so many people have been convinced by pure propaganda myths into supporting policies that are against their own best interests.

You won't find Atlas working Wall Street.

6 years ago I was living out of my car. Today I run my own company, and make nearly 6 figures.

What changed was that I learned to take control of my life. I blame myself for my failures, and I don't believe in 'impossible'.

reply to post by raymundoko


Once again, you didn't bother to read my link. Hong Kong had double digit poverty well before 97.

How about putting up some links that actually support your claims.

As cities are rated, Hong Kong is 70 on the list, 1 above Detroit, and also rated as one of the most expensive cities on the planet. Yeah, such a paradise, what a bargain.

While Europe cities are the most highest rated.

www.hr.com...

www.finfacts.ie...

Hong was also an extremely corrupt city back in the sixties and seventies, I can see why the Heritage Foundation thinks Hong Kong is so great.

www.kwok-manwai.com...

www.scmp.com...

Sorry, I would rather live where the cities are nicer, people get six weeks vacation, and have affordable good quality healthcare.

reply to post by 8675309jenny


Good for you.

I think supporting policies that are in your best interest, are also a part of being responsible for your place in life.

This is why I speak out against bad ideas like communism, and the free market.

reply to post by poet1b


Nope. Your still posting links with current data. And the link from you last post had no source matrerial It was just a slideshow.

reply to post by poet1b


Oh yeah, you really hate communism?

reply to post by raymundoko


The slide show presented data, and other links had history, and you have yet to back up your claims.

As far as I am concerned, free market economics is just a new version of communism, with the corporation replacing the communist state.

Hong Kong, Detroit level lifestyle with the cost of Tokyo. The free market dream state.

reply to post by poet1b


Keep pushing that straw man. Nobody is saying Hong Kong now is great. I already posted that.

Hong Kong didn't even have an official poverty line until 2013. Before then others estimated the poverty line based on income/living conditions/healthcare/education.

Pre 2013 liberals made it a high percentage, conservatives a low. 18% are below the poverty line right now. In 1996 that number was closer to 10%.

You do realize Germany is at 15% right? The EU is at 16%...

en.m.wikipedia.org...

www.inequalitywatch.eu...

So here you are ragging on the CURRENT poverty rate of a fake free market when it is comparable to the European countries you are praising...

poet1b
reply to post by 8675309jenny

 

Good for you.

I think supporting policies that are in your best interest, are also a part of being responsible for your place in life.

This is why I speak out against bad ideas like communism, and the free market.

You're espousing the ways of Europe, but have you lived there?

This thread seems to have derailed from Healthcare discussion to capitalism vs socialism.

I already stated that capitalism is not compatible with a fair healthcare system, but you are very wrong in your beliefs about the evil free market. Europe is having major problems right now just like the US.

One VITAL thing you need to understand the free market is that nothing is there for your benefit. Benefits come by way of competition for your business! You are aware (or should be) that someone is trying to charge the MOST they possibly can for anything and everything. By it's nature it creates a more savvy consumer. Caveat emptor.

Socialist societies slowly creep toward becoming entitlement-infested and the people lose the will or even knowledge of how to do things for themselves.

Much like sacrificing essential liberty for some safety will get you neither. Sacrificing the rights of the individual for the benefit of the collective, ultimately destroys BOTH.

reply to post by raymundoko


Your claim is that Hong Kong has a better system than Europe, it doesn't.

So there is no basis for your claim that Hong Kong had a low poverty rate pre-1996. Hong Kong is still touted as the ideal market, and currently the poverty rate is around 20%, and people are living in cages.

Back in 1996, everyone was doing better, the world economy was in excellent shape.

Free market ideology destroyed the US economy after repubs got their deregulation package passed, so we are all worse off.

The point remains, the US insurance based system is far worse than Europe. Single payer insurance works better. Socialized medicine works better.

reply to post by 8675309jenny


That is the ideal, but the reality is Corporatism, where corporations control the market, bargaining over price does happen anymore.

There is no competition, everyone works for the corporate empire, and buys from the corporate empire.

People become less productive when they start to realize that working harder does not get them ahead.

Wallmart does not make a more savvy consumer.

In order to establish productive healthy competition, there has to be a fair set of rules. Could you imagine trying to play professional football without rules and referees? There is a reason that profession sports develop governing bodies to establish a fair set of evenly enforced rules.

But the market system doesn't work for everything.

If you are dying, or someone you love, you aren't in a position to bargain for a fair price.

reply to post by poet1b


No, I said it HAD a better system. It doesn't anymore. The numbers that show it is a free market are greatly manipulated by the Chinese government and it has only gotten worse since 2004. You're straw man is a fallacy as I am specifically talking about PRE 1996 when Hong Kong was under UK control. The UK used HK as a Free Market "Utopia" to drive other world markets up. That is why people were wondering if they would actually hand it over to the Chinese government.

You keep sticking with numbers from NOW or within the last few years. HK has been under communist control for 20 years bro.

reply to post by poet1b


You know Wal-Mart provides 1.4 million FULL time jobs and another .6 million part time jobs right? Now you might be of the thought process that they have destroyed more than they have created, I agree with that. However; they have done more for consumers in the process:

www.forbes.com...

The average pay for a full time employee is 13.00 an hour...

The lowest pay at Wal-Mart is almost 9.00 an hour, well above minimum wage.

So here you are, ragging on a corporation that provides jobs that keeps the majority of it's work force well above the poverty line. (25k a year on average, 16k for lowest pay, which is double the poverty line for a single earner and over a single income for a family of 2 in the USA), anyone who works more than 8 hours in a day or 34 hours in a week gets OT.)

U.S. Census Bureau Poverty Thresholds, 2012
Size of Family Unit Poverty Threshold
One person (unrelated individual) $11,720
Under age 65 11,945
Age 65 or older 11,011
Two people 14,937
Householder under age 65 15,450
Householder age 65 or older 13,892

www.irp.wisc.edu...

Wal-Mart is actually looking to increase the minimum pay rate to 10-12 an hour as of this month. You should also know that they are almost solely responsible for the NATIONAL minimum wage increase that took effect in 2007. They lobbied for it starting in 2000 and it finally got passed in 2007.

So yeah, you don't know anything about the "evil corporate giant Wal-Mart" at all.

reply to post by poet1b


I had a co-worker's son get in a motorcycle accident. He broker both is legs and his back. It took him two years to fully recover after the surgery.

In year one his medical bills were 130k. You know how much he paid? 3k. That was the maximum he could be billed per his insurance deductible.

In year two his medical bills were 55k. You know how much he paid? 3k.

So almost 200k worth of medical bills and he only paid 6k. His son fully recovered as he had access to any treatment he wanted per the PPO insurance coverage.

I have the same exact insurance for my family. I pay 120 a pay period (240 a month) and my company pays the rest (about 600 on their side)

So my amazing insurance is around 10-11k a year if I paid for it all on my own. So let's say something happens and I have to pay my deductible of 3k. That's 13-14k I spend on medical insurance costs.

OH MY GAWD SO EXPENSIVE RIGHT!???

No. It's still cheaper than if I was getting taxed at a 42% tax rate...waaaaaaaaay cheaper. My current effective tax rate is 17% because I am head of household (single earner family) with 2 children. So to use a round number let's say of 100k I lose 17k a year to taxes. At a 42% tax rate I would lose 42000 to taxes. That's an additional 25k I would have to spend to get "free" healthcare, or 11k more than I pay for insurance.

Now let's use the national average of 45k a year. A person who makes that with the same filing status of me would have an 11% effective tax rate or just under 5k a year. So let's say they pay for the awesome insurance and spend another 14k. That's 19k a year for taxes and insurance and a deductible. If they had a 42% tax rate they would pay 19k a year in taxes which is exactly what they would pay for top notch insurance. They aren't getting anything for free, they are paying more in taxes for the same thing. Keep in mind in the years they don't need to use it they get to keep that 3k deductible.

en.wikipedia.org...

Keep in mind low income earners in the USA already get free healthcare.

Do you see the math here? If our tax rate goes up to euro standards the average family would be EXACTLY where they would be if they paid for top notch insurance. The beauty of the USA is people have the choice to decide their coverage. If they go cheap, they get what they pay for.

reply to post by raymundoko


Hong Kong never had a better system.

The only thing Hong Kong offers is access to cheap labor and Asian markets.

Hong Kong isn't even in the same class as Europe in any shape or form, and you have presented no evidence to back up your claim.

Hong Kong is just a right wing fantasy.

reply to post by raymundoko




So you think Wallmart turns people into more savy consumers?

That. Is the point I made.

You can worship at Wallmart's gate if you want.

reply to post by poet1b


I am not worshiping at Wal-Marts gate. I don't shop at Wal-Mart because I disagree with their business model, which is the same reason I won't use Apple or Windows products in my home (I'm actually leaning towards allowing Windows back in because of how much Gates is doing from a "helping the world" perspective). However, I can never say those companies did not improve the market that exists today. I can just tell that you really don't know anything about how finance, business or industry work and you only go off what hot topic blog you've recently read tells you.

Do you own an iPad? Do you own an iPhone? You do realize that apple has a far more despicable business model than Wal-Mart right?