Help with translating a verse in Koine Greek

I should think that an adequate translation of ἐπὶ τῆς χειρὸς would be "upon the hand," given that the object of the preposition is in the genitive case, as pointed out above. Also, the prepositional phrase refers to the noun χάραγμα, which denotes a mark engraved or imprinted upon something. I don't see a big mystery here.

reply to post by yamammasamonkey

5480 xáragma – properly, an engraving (etching); (figuratively) a mark providing undeniable identification, like a symbol giving irrefutable connection between parties.
5480 /xáragma ("brand-mark") was originally any impress on a coin or a seal, used by an engraver on a die (stamp, branding iron). 5480 (xáragma) later became "the identification-marker" (like with an owner's unique "brand-mark").
[Ancient documents were validated by such stamps or seals (see Plutarch, Agesilaus, 15:6; De Lysandro 16:2, ala DNTT, 2, 574).

The Real ID does have an “etching” or “seal” which the DHS refers to as a “Mark”. Its a five pointed gold star. Actually this appears to support what I stated above, it doesn't seem to conflict at all.

Utnapisjtim
616 because 'Jesus' in Hebrew gematria adds up to 616 and Muhammed

I'm not getting this at all. Christ's name seems to add up to 444, even in Latin.
I'm also not understanding why you are relating Christ to 666/616 at all anyway? Christ has his own number, 777.

Utnapisjtim
All we'd need would be to add two symbols for ten and eleven, for twelve in base-12 is 10.

You would use a=10, b=11, and c=12 the same as hexadecimal.

reply to post by yamammasamonkey


Oh dear. If you say so I guess you're right. But please refrain from petty ad hominem slander, it only leads to anger and frustration. You don't know me. Period. I'm not an expert in linguistics, far from it, I'm a novice, but I have a passion for language, and right now that passion burns like hellfire, 'cause I don't like being spat at when I am trying to do my best

defcon5

Utnapisjtim
616 because 'Jesus' in Hebrew gematria adds up to 616 and Muhammed

I'm not getting this at all. Christ's name seems to add up to 444, even in Latin.
I'm also not understanding why you are relating Christ to 666/616 at all anyway? Christ has his own number, 777.

It's not that simple. At the time the Apocalypse was written only Romans would refer to the Master as Jesus (or rather Iesvs since letter U wasn't invented yet) and did everything in their power to hide the fact that he was a Jewish radical in oposition to Rome and the Jewish Quisslings of his time, "the Pharicees and the scribes". Jesus had another name, something like ישוע (Yeshuah) or similar. The Romans continued from there with turning Jesus into the supernatural miraclemaker and Roman style demi-god who had no wife or children, who hated his own people, the Jews and the list goes on and on. The Latin Jesus is the Beast that died and came back to life. ישוע however, Truth-- suffered, but survived crucifiction. He was proclaimed dead to us, but he was Life itself, showing us the Way to salvation. Antichrist means the False Christ. Get it?

Hebrew gematria is a rather complicated system where every Hebrew/Aramaic letter was assigned a numerical value. Infact our current numbers (1,2,3 and so on) were originally letters gathered from a wide variety of languages into Arabic numbers used in the base-10 system we use today which we aquired from the Moors.

J/I = Yod = 10
E = niqqud = 0
S = Shin = 300
U/V = Wav = 6
S = Shin = 300
SUM = 616

Source: en.wikipedia.org...

Utnapisjtim
All we'd need would be to add two symbols for ten and eleven, for twelve in base-12 is 10.

You would use a=11, and b=12, the same as hexadecimal.

Well, not exactly. using your system, ten would be A while eleven would be B. Twelve in base-12 becomes 10 if we continue using the position system we currently use. However, being a designer, I could never settle with using A and B. I'd look for two other symbols or letters. ✝ and ɣ perhaps?

reply to post by defcon5


This is your question as you stated it.

When taken in the context of translating this with the surrounding text, is there anything stating that the mark must be something that is engraved or implanted into the recipient? Can it just as easily mean that the persons hand print or photograph is placed into the mark system?

The answer is no, the word translated to mark, makes the interpretation impossible. The mark is the owners "brand", (person, system, antichrist, whatever). It does not refer to the mark of the individual. The mark will be the same on everyone (or a couple versions). Not individual to each. Taking a photo of the individual and placing somewhere doesn't come close to this meaning.

reply to post by yamammasamonkey

Yes, a mark, a seal, just like on the new DHS Real ID's:

[the gold star]

From the Real ID Benchmarks:

I find the lingo used rather funny all by itself. Usually a government department refers to any type of logo or marking as a “seal” not a ”mark” or “marking”.

reply to post by defcon5


As for the Mark, how about the hyper inflated Nazi war currency, the Military Reichsmark. It came in denominations 1,5,10 and 50, but it was valued at 10/1 compared to the ReichsMark, thus 100 and 500 denominations are included. These follow the pattern of Roman numerals which add up to 666. 1+5+10+50+100+500=666. Hence, add the typical 100 and 500 and you have 666. "noone could buy and sell...". 666 is all over the place. You find it in all computer software, currencies, you name it and it's there. It's in your wrist watch, your phone, the money in your pocket, your credit card, your TV, it's even encoded in the social seurity number, your passport, and to top it all, it's encoded into the very proportions of your body. So well, 666 is just about anywhere. You certainly wouldn't need a chip in your head. It's a thing that we can't escape if we want to live normal lives. What you'd need to change this, will be to issue a new numerical system and use the original 616 where 666 is in the Apocalypse. Unless you're prepared to cut off your right hand and poke out your eyes, abstain from all use of electronics, money, well everything we need in this world to live normal lives.

reply to post by Utnapisjtim

666 is all over the place.

I have a **** account ending with that number.
It makes me laugh whenever I use it.
Revelation says that it is the number of man.

reply to post by defcon5


As for the lingo, people are less and less literate all the time at all levels. They might have simply deemed "seal" to be archaic and switched to something they figured everyone would understand. You know, basic KISS principle.

reply to post by ketsuko


You're exactly right. And yet there is a real difference between a seal and a mere mark. A seal denotes ownership, possession, and the power to "keep" whatever is sealed.

Having the antiChrist's seal definitely indicates that IT owns you, and won't be letting go---you won't be snatched out of IT's hand.

Cf. Rev. 7:3 where the seal of God is to be put on his own servants.

tovenar
reply to post by ketsuko

 

You're exactly right. And yet there is a real difference between a seal and a mere mark. A seal denotes ownership, possession, and the power to "keep" whatever is sealed.

Having the antiChrist's seal definitely indicates that IT owns you, and won't be letting go---you won't be snatched out of IT's hand.

Cf. Rev. 7:3 where the seal of God is to be put on his own servants.

Well, I haven't quite gotten to the level of equating our government with the anti-Christ yet. They are definitely too intrusive, and there are some things they could do that I won't accept, an RFID chip implant, for example or a tattoo ID.

But I haven't started attaching spiritual significance to the legal language they are using.

Attaching spiritual significance to the Bible and similar is another matter.

reply to post by defcon5


reply to post by jmdewey60

jmdewey60
reply to post by Utnapisjtim

 

666 is all over the place.

I have a **** account ending with that number.
It makes me laugh whenever I use it.
Revelation says that it is the number of man.

edit on 6-2-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

This is a difficult one, for Gr. 'ánthrōpos' can refer to both 'a man', 'an individual' and 'humankind'.

[444 /ánthrōpos ("man") answers to the Hebrew term, ̓adam – and 435 (anḗr) answers to the Hebrew term ̓ish.

biblehub.com...

Thus it is not limited to males, but either 'a man', 'a human individual' or 'all humankind', most like the English idiom 'man' or similar in Hebrew 'adam'.

κύριός ἐστιν ὁ ὑιὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου can thereby be translated into 'The Son of Man is Lord' (Mark 2:28)

and

Ὧδε ἡ σοφία ἐστίν. ὁ ἔχων νοῦν ψηφισάτω τὸν ἀριθμὸν τοῦ θηρίου· ἀριθμὸς γὰρ ἀνθρώπου ἐστίν. καὶ ὁ ἀριθμὸς αὐτοῦ ἑξακόσιοι ἑξήκοντα ἕξ ' can be translated into '...for it is man's number...' or '...for it is a man's number...'

However, seeing it in context, 666 is refering to the whole humankind, while 616 is not a number you find generally in humans, atleast not the same way as 666. Therefore, I would say that the (anachronistic) changing of 616 (arbitrary in humans in general) into the funnunumber 666 (found in the very proportions of our body), the number went from refering to a particular man, into man in general. The prophecy was fulfilled as (I suspect) intended, since including a number so close up to the well known funnynumber 666, and seeing how the very prophecy would be fulfilled by a stroke of pen, that it was just to sit down and wait for the Romans to do what they normally did in cases like this, they changed a letter or a word, destroyed (nearly) every copy including 616, and then they could have a drink for job well done. By changing a number, they changed the whole meaning of the text.

The dilemma for the translators then is: "Do we want all humans to have the number of the Beast, or do we want to limit it to Jesus and Muhammed and a few others?" My answer to this should be known by now. Change 666 back to 616 and translate 'anthropou' into 'a man' and we can all live blissfully until some schmock finds a new way do damn all humans. However, by then I would possibly be concidered the Messiah anyway so I would coup the UN and change our numerical system into base-12 at any given chance scrambling the funnynumber even further

Sources for the book worms out there:
--> www.teknia.com...
--> greek-language.com...
--> biblehub.com...
--> www.bible-researcher.com...
--> biblehub.com...

reply to post by defcon5


The mark is not physical, it is spiritual.

"Your right hand" is not your physical hand, but what you do/how you live (actions).
"Your forehead" is not your physical forehead, but what you think (thoughts).

There is much understanding in these verses; but not until it is time for it to be known.

Which "mark" do you bare? The mark of God, or the "mark" of Man?

God Bless,

Utnapisjtim
reply to post by defcon5

 

As for the Mark, how about the hyper inflated Nazi war currency, the Military Reichsmark. It came in denominations 1,5,10 and 50, but it was valued at 10/1 compared to the ReichsMark, thus 100 and 500 denominations are included. These follow the pattern of Roman numerals which add up to 666. 1+5+10+50+100+500=666. Hence, add the typical 100 and 500 and you have 666. "noone could buy and sell...". 666 is all over the place. You find it in all computer software, currencies, you name it and it's there. It's in your wrist watch, your phone, the money in your pocket, your credit card, your TV, it's even encoded in the social seurity number, your passport, and to top it all, it's encoded into the very proportions of your body. So well, 666 is just about anywhere. You certainly wouldn't need a chip in your head. It's a thing that we can't escape if we want to live normal lives. What you'd need to change this, will be to issue a new numerical system and use the original 616 where 666 is in the Apocalypse. Unless you're prepared to cut off your right hand and poke out your eyes, abstain from all use of electronics, money, well everything we need in this world to live normal lives.

edit on 6-2-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: added 10/1

The "mark" is an indicator of the set of laws which govern your thoughts (forehead) and actions (right hand) in life.

If you are subject to God's laws and allow them to determine your thoughts and actions; then you may receive the "mark" of God.

If you are not subject to the laws of God, but rather your thoughts and actions are guided by your own reasoning/logic/ethics/morality according to the will of self or as agreed upon in your society; then you have already taken upon yourself the "mark" of man (self determined governance).

The Beast is the system of mankind's self rule; where mankind can design whatever rules they choose to in life and live according to those ideas originating within self, without regard for how it effects others (those who have a different idea of what is right).

Every man is "right" in his own eyes for "the natural mind is against/an enemy to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be".

The mark of God is recorded in Exodus 31.

"Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths (commanded assemblies) you shall keep, for it is a sign (MARK) between Me and you throughout your generations (forever), that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you (set you apart for Holy use)."

Keeping the law of God in your mind (forehead) and doing the law of God through your works (right hand) places God's "mark" on the mind of the individual.

Living according to "my way", places the mark of the Beast on the mind of the individual.

So, to some degree everything you have mentioned in this thread is part of the "mark' (fiat currency, world governments etc.) But the "mark" is something we place upon ourselves by choice individually, not something that is forced upon you externally.

The primary "force" mentioned in the scripture is through peer/social pressure to conform to the mob's current morality flavor of the month, "if you don't agree that we are right, and we outnumber you, we will attack your beliefs until you do." This is how one who bare's God "mark" (obeys God's laws) can be "cutoff" (beheaded) from society for refusing to accept the "mark" of man.

God Bless,

ElohimJD
The "mark" is an indicator of the set of laws which govern your thoughts (forehead) and actions (right hand) in life.

I guess you refer to Exodus 13:9 and 13:16 and Deuteronomy 6:8 and 11:18 which describe similar use of mark on hand and forehead. However, Jews and especially the Hasidim, use Tefillim or Phylacteries in English, two boxes containing parts of the Torah, which they physically place on their hand and forehead during the morning prayer. "The Torah commands that they should be worn to serve as a "sign" and "remembrance" that God brought the children of Israel out of Egypt" and "It is the Talmud, the authoritative oral tradition for Rabbinic Judaism, which explains what are to be bound to the body and the form of tefillin.".



Source: en.wikipedia.org...

Utnapisjtim

ElohimJD
The "mark" is an indicator of the set of laws which govern your thoughts (forehead) and actions (right hand) in life.

I guess you refer to Exodus 13:16 and Deuteronomy 6:8 and 11:18 which describe similar use of mark on hand and forehead. However, Jews and especially the Hasidim, use Tefillim or Phylacteries in English, two boxes containing parts of the Torah, which they physically place on their hand and forehead during the morning prayer. "The Torah commands that they should be worn to serve as a "sign" and "remembrance" that God brought the children of Israel out of Egypt".

Source: en.wikipedia.org...

To an extent.

Present day Jews interpret God's spiritual laws physically. They rejected the Passover 2000 years ago and as such cannot "see" spiritually today, they can only interpret scriptures physically, which is why they have such an odd tradition regarding this observance.

Those are physical objects meant to explain a spiritual application. What is to be "worn" in spirit and in truth is God's Holy Spirit dwelling in the mind's of His called out ones (ecclesia) when we go before God in prayer. God wants you to place His spiritual laws in your mind (think upon them, meditate on them), not the physical object physically on top of your physical head.

The interpretation of these verses is not Jewish in origin, looking to them for understanding will not produce spiritual growth at this time.

reply to post by ElohimJD


Some would say that it is you and your likes who misinterpret the divine word of God, by changing a doctrine that has been around since atleast the Babylonian exile around the time the Torah was first written down, just to suit your own means. The Torah orders it, the Talmud turns it into doctrine, and until the Talmud was written down a couple of centuries AD it was taught and observed orally. A little exegesis on your hand (pun intended) would serve you well. They found Tefillin in the Qumran caves dating back to first century BC. And there are far older ones around.


Here's another picture showing the Tefillin unwrapped.

reply to post by Utnapisjtim

This is a difficult one, for Gr. 'ánthrōpos' can refer to both 'a man', 'an individual' and 'humankind'.

What I had in mind when I made that post saying that 666 is the number of man, was the NET Bible translation.
That was where I used to look for the Greek meanings of the original text, before I started using the Bible Hub almost exclusively for that.

IMHO utnapisjtim and elohim are right, and it's an argument I've made many times in the past regarding this verse.

Charagma can mean brand or tattoo, but it can also mean to take an oath or accept a belief, also I believe you can use it to mean signature (making your mark). In this case, I'm pretty sure it has to do with acceptance/embrace of something, because the description of the mark is that of a tefillin. You're expressing your choice of beliefs in your thoughts and actions. THAT's the mark of the beast, not a chip or social security card.