Help with translating a verse in Koine Greek

I have a question that I'm going to put out to the community in hopes that someone out there knows there stuff regarding the translation of Koine Greek.

Its has been argued that Revelation 13:16:

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

states specifically that the mark is something that must be “in” the taker. Is that in fact that case? From what I can find the word “Epi” has quite a number of meanings.

Revlations 13:16 greek comparison

Epi in Strong's Concordance

1909. epi ep-ee' a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution (with the genitive case), i.e. over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.:--about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, (where-))fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-)on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively).

When taken in the context of translating this with the surrounding text, is there anything stating that the mark must be something that is engraved or implanted into the recipient? Can it just as easily mean that the persons hand print or photograph is placed into the mark system?

reply to post by justreleased

Obviously I am using Strong's Concordance, which is already superior to Google Translate. However, I would like a bit more specifics. For example why is that one specific meaning for Epi used, is it the only possible translation, are there any other translations that are just as acceptable?

If this was something that I could simply pull up through a google search I already would have done so. That is why I would like to find some folks who actually know the how's and why's of translating.

reply to post by defcon5


Etymonline says :

epi-
word-forming element meaning "on, upon, above," also "in addition to; toward, among," from Greek epi "upon, at, close upon (in space or time), on the occasion of, in addition," from PIE *epi, *opi "near, at, against" (cf. Sanskrit api "also, besides;" Avestan aipi "also, to, toward;" Armenian ev "also, and;" Latin ob "toward, against, in the way of;" Oscan op, Greek opi- "behind;" Hittite appizzis "younger;" Lithuanian ap- "about, near;" Old Church Slavonic ob "on"). Before unaspirated vowels, reduced to ep-; before aspirated vowels, eph-. A productive prefix in Greek; also used in modern scientific compounds (e.g. epicenter).

Epi- Center?

How about the "Epic Enter" ?

epic (adj.)
1580s, perhaps via Middle French épique or directly from Latin epicus, from Greek epikos, from epos "word, story, poem," from PIE *wekw- "to speak" (see voice). Extended sense of "grand, heroic" first recorded in English 1731. The noun meaning "an epic poem" is first recorded 1706.

"Speak", "Story", "Word" = The "Epic One we Enter"
It's the Entire Story of Existence, the Meaning of it All

This "Figurative Knowledge from Epimetheus that we Seen" will hit the Scene as Epicene :

epicene (adj.)
mid-15c., epycen, originally a grammatical term for nouns that may denote either gender, from Latin epicoenus "common," from Greek epikoinos "common to many, promiscuous," from epi "on" (see epi-) + koinos "common" (see coeno-). Extended sense of "characteristic of both sexes" first recorded in English c.1600; that of "effeminate" 1630s.

Epimetheus (/ɛpɨˈmiːθiːəs/; Greek: Ἐπιμηθεύς, which might mean "hindsight", literally "afterthinker")

This is the Epic that Cure Us of the Epidemic, call em Epicurus

epicure (n.)
late 14c., "follower of Epicurus," from Latin Epicurus, from Greek Epicouros (341-270 B.C.E.), Athenian philosopher who taught that pleasure is the highest good and identified virtue as the greatest pleasure; the first lesson recalled, the second forgotten, and the name used pejoratively for "one who gives himself up to sensual pleasure" (1560s), especially "glutton, sybarite" (1774). Epicurus' school opposed by stoics, who first gave his name a reproachful sense. Non-pejorative meaning "one who cultivates refined taste in food and drink" is from 1580s.

Virtue is the Highest Pleasure

Virtue (Latin: virtus, Ancient Greek: ἀρετή "arete") is moral excellence. A virtue is a positive trait or quality deemed to be morally good and thus is valued as a foundation of principle and good moral being. Personal virtues are characteristics valued as promoting collective and individual greatness. The opposite of virtue is vice.

The Moral of the Excellent Story ? Here's the Epilogue of the Demagogue of the Synagogue that Gouge the Sign of Syn.
It would be the Epilepsy of the Epiphany :

epilepsy (n.)
1570s, from Middle French epilepsie (16c.), from Late Latin epilepsia, from Greek epilepsia "seizure," from epi "upon" (see epi-) + lepsis "seizure," from leps-, future stem of lambanein "take hold of, grasp" (see analemma).

epilogue (n.)
early 15c., from Middle French epilogue (13c.), from Latin epilogus, from Greek epilogos "conclusion of a speech," from epi "upon, in addition" (see epi-) + logos "a speaking" (see lecture (n.)). Earliest English sense was theatrical.

epiphany (n.)
early 14c., "festival of the manifestation of Christ to the gentiles" (celebrated Jan. 6; usually with a capital -E-), from Old French epiphanie, from Late Latin epiphania, neuter plural (taken as feminine singular), from late Greek epiphaneia "manifestation, striking appearance" (in New Testament, "advent or manifestation of Christ"), from epiphanes "manifest, conspicuous," from epiphainein "to manifest, display," from epi "on, to" (see epi-) + phainein "to show" (see phantasm).

My lexicon of choice is a massive old volume by Thayer (a translation, apparently of Grimm's Wilks's Clovis Novi Testamenti).
The meaning of EPI seems to depend on whether it is followed by the genitive, dative, or accusative cases.
In the verse you're quoting, I think "hand" is in the genitve case, but forehead" accusative.
As far as I can tell from initial reading of the entry, this ought to relate to a place "above or over" which something has been placed. Perhaps, for example, on the surface.
But I'll keep reading through the page to see if it throws up any more light.

Right; The first meaning given for usage with the genitive case is "Place upon the surface of which somethng remains, goes, or is done".
It looks like the accusative case is more about someone or something moving to that place, while the genitive case is about remaining there.
Adding them together, you get a sense of "is placed on hand/forehead and remains there".

reply to post by defcon5


Kasus is everything in languages like Vulgar Latin and Koine Greek. In this example, the first instance is genitive, while the second one is accusative. Seeing that 'epi' can only be translated 'in' when in dative-- it cannot be translated 'in' in either occurance in the given verse. Or so it seems anyway:

The quoted text below is from www.teknia.com... a great resource for anyone in need of studying biblical texts at word level:

(gen.) on, over, when; (dat.) on, at, in, while; (acc.) across, over, on, to, for, while - See more at: www.teknia.com...

He also caused everyone — small and great, rich and poor, free and slave — to receive a mark on (epi | ἐπί | prep-gen) their right hand or on (epi | ἐπί | prep-acc) their forehead. - See more at: www.teknia.com...

reply to post by defcon5


Epi (sorry I'm on my phone and don't have my Greek keyboard apps) is such a bastard of a word that is purely circumstantial in context. I'll need to dig out my Liddell-Scott Greek-English lexicon and still be confused...had a New Testament Greek class. Maybe I should have paid more attention but hell that was twenty years ago and college.

I can't speak to the Greek translation aspect of this but I would like to add that my copy of the New Testament, in which the Book of Revelation is still titled Apocalypse, the verse you refer to uses the word "on" and not "in"

Also, the footnote to this verse refers you to Galatians 6, 17 which is:

"Henceforth let no man give me trouble, for I bear the marks of the Lord Jesus IN my body." This was said by St. Paul as a way of impressing upon others that he is a slave to Christ and no other - perhaps in the way St. John in Revelations/Apocalypse may be trying to convey the message that the false prophet will similarly seek to brand us as slaves, whether in or on...

But this gets us into just personal interpretations and I could go on and on...

I haven't any input on the Greek etymology - so I'll shut up now

Prepositions are highly idiomatic in any language. You pretty much have to memorize lists of them and their appropriate usage. There isn't much "consistent usage," and what we think of in English as the prepositional function (describing the relationship of the object to some other sentence element) is basically a grab bag of concepts that changes every 50 years or so. Notice how in modern American English, "Different from" is being replaced by the phrase "different to."


There is no single English translation for every instance of EPI in the Biblical Canon.

"Epi ths ghs" (epi tays gays) is best used as "upon the earth" when reading the Septuagint account of creation.

Upon works best as the idiomatic translation for the imposition of the mark.

It's all a vision. Visionary language is "kairos", not "kronos"; thus you cannot find a literal manifestation of "John's" vision. By the time you recognize it in Kronos, it wlll have been too late.

kalunom
...for I bear the marks of the Lord Jesus IN my body."

The word 'marks' here is 'Stigmata'-- 'wounds'. Since Jesus is genitive here, 'in' is a valid translation, and given we are talking about wounds here, 'in' is a valid translation, though I would probaby have used 'on'. Then again, I'm not very good at this. Planning to take some Koine Greek classes, should have done that years and years ago.

Thanks guys this is exactly the kind of stuff I’m looking for, though I can't say I fully understand all the syntactical rules yet. If you can't tell by my signature line, I'm greatly concerned over various biometric national ID systems. As far as I can tell the only criteria that they do not presently meet is that none of them go directly “on” or “in” the “hand” or “forehead”. What concerns me though, is that they are “based upon” biometrics captured from the “hand” (fingerprints) or “forehead” (facial recognition). So, with that in mind, does the syntax used in writing this exclude it from being a system “based on” biometrics and stored in a database, and make it something that MUST be placed in some way directly “in” or “on” the skin?

reply to post by defcon5
.
My first reaction to this question;
What I notice in the various meanings of EPI is a very definite sense of "moving towards".
In this verse, the verb that precedes EPI is "given", which suggests the same thing. The body receives.
It seems to me that the information you're thinking of, such as fingerprints, is being extracted from the body- in other words, moving in the wrong direction.

It's also worth noticing that this verse is a clear counterpart of the verses in Deuteronomy where israel are instructed to keep God's law on their hands and between their eyes- e.g. ch6 v8, ch11 v18
(i believe this is a metaphor for "in the forefront of their minds").

reply to post by defcon5


The prophecy in question was fulfilled around 1900 years ago or since the Church changed 616 into 666. While 616 is related to the Latinised name Jesus adding up to 616 if you apply Hebrew gematria, and perhaps points to the year Muhammed received his revelation (if Jesus was born in 6BC and Muhammed received his revelation in 610AD, you get 616 years from Jesus' birth)-- 666 includes nearly every living human on the planet, since 666 links human anatomical proportions to the Cosmos or anything surrounding us: The width of your hand equals the height of your forehead, and on arm's length your hand equals 10° of the horizon (and how do soldiers salute again? And doesn't it involve the right hand and the forehead or in some way displaying the hand or fist on arms length?). There are a total of 360° in a full circle, or 36 hands to complete the circle:

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9 + 10 + 11 + 12 + 13 + 14 + 15 + 16 + 17 + 18 + 19 + 20 + 21 + 22 + 23 + 24 + 25 + 26 + 27 + 28 + 29 + 30 + 31 + 32 + 33 + 34 + 35 + 36 = 666

So instead of leaving the mark with the two persons best capable of dealing with 616, the two greatest prophets of all time, the Pope made "all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave,to be marked on the right hand or the forehead" with a stroke of pen. If I ever complete my own translation of the Apocalypse one day, 666 will be replaced by 616, then Jesus can carry our sins like he was supposed to, and "all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave", will be given a second chance, and 666 will be just a funny number that shows up everywhere. However, 77 bytes à 8 bits become 616 bits, so we might be too late, but we would still have a better chance than with 666, because that one shows up anywhere and everywhere.

reply to post by Utnapisjtim

I am aware of the 616/666 relationship, but it was my understanding that was intentionally changed by the early monks (who hand wrote many of the early bibles) to further show a relationship to Nero Caesar as his name fits both 666 and 616.

You sort of lost me on some of this, but this part sounds interesting, what are you referring to here:

So instead of leaving the mark with the two persons best capable of dealing with 616, the two greatest prophets of all time, the Pope made "all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead" with a stroke of pen.

reply to post by defcon5


I think you can come up with the answer yourself by researching the word that comes before it which is translated as "mark". The meaning of this word makes what you consider impossible.

defcon5
reply to post by Utnapisjtim

 

I am aware of the 616/666 relationship, but it was my understanding that was intentionally changed by the early monks (who hand wrote many of the early bibles) to further show a relationship to Nero Caesar as his name fits both 666 and 616.

You sort of lost me on some of this, but this part sounds interesting, what are you referring to here:

So instead of leaving the mark with the two persons best capable of dealing with 616, the two greatest prophets of all time, the Pope made "all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead" with a stroke of pen.

"The two greatest prophets of all time" are Jesus (or his real Aramaic name) and Muhammed (or his real Arabic name). Both are directly linked to 616 and 666. 666 because they are human, 616 because 'Jesus' in Hebrew gematria adds up to 616 and Muhammed since he had his revelation 616 years after Jesus was born (if he was born 6BC which most scholars believe). Me blaming the Pope for the forgery, is somewhat biased, I must admit, and not something that is simple to prove. But we know that what is probably the oldest fragment we have containing the number of the beast has 616 written instead of 666. I believe the number was changed from 616 to 666 as an anachronistic proof Nero was the Beast and thereby the Apocalypse had happened, and the Pope et co were all victors and the RC Church was Heaven on Earth with the Pope being God's physical replacement and his empire the Kingdom of God.

Another way to solve the whole number of the beast thing would be to replace the faulty base-10 system we use today with the by far superior base-12 system. When you get used to base-12 it's even much simpler to use and much more precise. 666 in base-12 makes no sense. 666 written in base-12 is 476, while 942 in base-10 equals 666 in base-12. By leaving the number as it's written, but changing base from 10 to 12 indirectly change 666 into 942. 942 divided by 300 is 3.14. That's about it. You can even count to twelve on your ten fingers, by counting the bones in your fingers using your thumb. All we'd need would be to add two symbols for ten and eleven, for twelve in base-12 is 10.

reply to post by defcon5

I have a question that I'm going to put out to the community in hopes that someone out there knows there stuff regarding the translation of Koine Greek.

Epi means on the outside, where you can see it, like a brand or a label.

I wouldn't worry too much about what some standard Bible translations say.
I recommend everyone to learn as much Greek as they have time enough to study, and to make a habit of creating your own translations.

As for the mark of the beast, that just means that you serve the beast as if you were one of its slaves.
The beast is a negative entity which opposes God and is destructive to our very existence on this earth.

There is a historical example of people being made to receive a mark, and this was in the Greek Ptolemaic rule over Egypt, where the mark was the symbol of the goddess Demeter, which was the shape of a leaf.
That may have been an inspiration for John's use of that imagery.

yamammasamonkey
reply to post by defcon5

 

I think you can come up with the answer yourself by researching the word that comes before it which is translated as "mark". The meaning of this word makes what you consider impossible.

Whenever the Devil hears the word 'impossible'-- he grins, claps his hands and goes "hmmm, is that so....."

Put a stamp on something and insert it under your skin, the 'Charagma' ('mark') is INSIDE your hand. "Never say never". My dad always says that "Nothing is impossible, the impossible just takes a little more time to figure out". 200 years ago it was impossible to fly. People had tried for millennia until one man finally got it right not too long ago.

reply to post by Utnapisjtim


You don't understand the argument. And what your saying has nothing to do with the language works.