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The Liberal Newcomers and How to Destroy a Conservative America

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posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 12:22 PM
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Kali74
reply to post by Bassago
 


You understand that Amnesty is for people that were brought here by their parents illegally entering the country right? And yes Mexicans eligible to vote in the US, vote mostly Democrat... what choice do they have with the Republican Party mantra?


All well and good but unless they were born on American soil or followed the path of legal immigration they still need to go back (with their parents) and start again, in the manner prescribed by our laws. Starting out coming into the US by breaking our laws does not endear them to anyone, I don't care if they're from Mars. Apply for legal immigration status or go home.

From your earlier post:


after the GOP goes down in flames and citizenship becomes easier to attain, Mexican Americans could give birth to a new Conservative movement.


Totally agree and I wish these Mexican Americans all the best and a prosperous life. As for the GOP, as I've said before I couldn't care less about them. May they go down in flames tomorrow (with the Democrat party in tow.)




posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 12:24 PM
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Exactly how is immigration going to hurt the country?



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 12:27 PM
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nixie_nox
Exactly how is immigration going to hurt the country?


Bad timing Nix. Im an immigration proponent and want a retool and streamlining of our process, but when we already have so many out of work, industry is dead, and we have too many on welfare now... opening the doors will cause chaos. Too many people and not enough jobs ( or ones that pay a wage where a person can actually feed themselves).
edit on 5-2-2014 by Advantage because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 01:12 PM
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reply to post by Advantage
 


Good. I hope these extreme, failed, conservative ideas do fail.

I have a lot of work experience with illegals in the agriculture business in central Washington. The only thing I have against them is their failure of improving their own country, and have told them so.

Other than that, they are family oriented and that is where most of their "welfare and socialism" comes from. They do not like government intrusion, they like to work, mind their own business, and they are mostly happy people compared to the rest of the nation. And they really like to spend money, not sit on it.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 01:27 PM
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We're in the beginning stages of the death of "American Conservatism". Immigration reform or not, I'm glad that my generation is more able to tolerate people of different sexual orientation, different ethnicity, and different cultures.

Do you seriously think that the Tea Party or GOP is going to be able to win major elections in 10 or 20 years? The only people that are keeping the Tea Party and GOP afloat are the baby boomers. Not to sound harsh but most of them will be dead in 20 years. Go ask a group of 19-25 year olds what they think about the Tea Party or GOP...You won't like the answers.

Just look at the recent election numbers..Obama smoked Republicans when it came to the minority vote...to the tune of 80% to 20%. The only reason the GOP keeps winning the house is due to Gerrymandering and nothing else.

O.P you better be going shopping for a casket and the world's smallest violin because the death of Conservatism is imminent.

Good riddance I say!



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 01:33 PM
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I know I rail against extreme conservatives a lot, but really, I don't think we need to destroy conservative America. I think we just need to redefine what a conservative is as apposed to a liberal. The main culprit is the media and the political machine of the two parties. They don't represent what people in this country are. We're being brainwashed. that's the whole problem.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 01:42 PM
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MOMof3
reply to post by Advantage
 


Good. I hope these extreme, failed, conservative ideas do fail.

I have a lot of work experience with illegals in the agriculture business in central Washington. The only thing I have against them is their failure of improving their own country, and have told them so.

Other than that, they are family oriented and that is where most of their "welfare and socialism" comes from. They do not like government intrusion, they like to work, mind their own business, and they are mostly happy people compared to the rest of the nation. And they really like to spend money, not sit on it.


ALL conservative ideas? Thats as ridiculous as saying someone wants ALL liberal ideas to fail. Dont lump me in with the 2 partiers. Both sides are screwing us, but hey.. if you want to play left vs right.... go ahead... just leave me off of the team roster.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 01:46 PM
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reply to post by muse7
 




O.P you better be going shopping for a casket and the world's smallest violin because the death of Conservatism is imminent.

Good riddance I say!


Everyone is entitled to their opinion but we're not dead yet.

I am surprised at the folks who are against immigrants simply having to obey the immigration laws for entering the country. Do you really not care about such things? I'll guess not as things some people don't agree are simply ignored or shouted down.

As my fathers parents and my mother were all nationalized as American citizens. They followed the laws of the country in which they chose to become citizens. IMO illegal aliens are an insult to the memories and people who do things the right and legal way.

See I have an opinion too.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 01:49 PM
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Advantage

nixie_nox
Exactly how is immigration going to hurt the country?


Bad timing Nix. Im an immigration proponent and want a retool and streamlining of our process, but when we already have so many out of work, industry is dead, and we have too many on welfare now... opening the doors will cause chaos. Too many people and not enough jobs ( or ones that pay a wage where a person can actually feed themselves).
edit on 5-2-2014 by Advantage because: (no reason given)


I like you Advantage, even if we don't always agree. So I will refute respectfully.

Let me start off by saying that I don't believe in blanket amnesty or an open door policy. But if a person was brought here at 2 years old, went to school here, is going to college, no criminal record. Make them a citizen.
I also agree that no one should make money off of paying someone third world rates.

I am not saying the process isn't crazy. In fact, I think it is a little too difficult. I worked with a girl who spent 7 years trying to get her citizenship. She was here on a work visa. The astounding costs bankrupted her family. After all that, she was sent packing.
THAT is also a crime.

What industry is dead?

The largest recipient of welfare is white.

What jobs are there not enough of?

These are blanket statements in what is otherwise a complicated employment society.

There are sectors where they can't fill the positions.

So you shouldn't remove options for a people based on blanket statements.

Do you really want to punish the kid who is getting a degree in nursing who was brought here when they were 2?

Because they are certainly not a welfare recipient. They are not taking minimum wage jobs.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 01:52 PM
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Bassago
reply to post by muse7
 




O.P you better be going shopping for a casket and the world's smallest violin because the death of Conservatism is imminent.

Good riddance I say!


Everyone is entitled to their opinion but we're not dead yet.

I am surprised at the folks who are against immigrants simply having to obey the immigration laws for entering the country. Do you really not care about such things? I'll guess not as things some people don't agree are simply ignored or shouted down.

As my fathers parents and my mother were all nationalized as American citizens. They followed the laws of the country in which they chose to become citizens. IMO illegal aliens are an insult to the memories and people who do things the right and legal way.

See I have an opinion too.



I have found that the people who are outraged the most are my friends who went through the citizenship process. It is not for the weak.

So they hate to see people skirt the whole system.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 01:55 PM
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Bassago
reply to post by muse7
 




O.P you better be going shopping for a casket and the world's smallest violin because the death of Conservatism is imminent.

Good riddance I say!


Everyone is entitled to their opinion but we're not dead yet.

I am surprised at the folks who are against immigrants simply having to obey the immigration laws for entering the country. Do you really not care about such things? I'll guess not as things some people don't agree are simply ignored or shouted down.

As my fathers parents and my mother were all nationalized as American citizens. They followed the laws of the country in which they chose to become citizens. IMO illegal aliens are an insult to the memories and people who do things the right and legal way.

See I have an opinion too.


Then you should at least be familiar with the process of applying for citizenship then no? You'd know that there is no way to simply get in line and wait for your turn right? No one is denying that these people broke the law by coming here illegally, that's why a lot of people support a process to give these people an opportunity to become part of this country by paying fines, back taxes, getting to the back of the line and learning English.

I believe in giving people who have committed a crime a second opportunity.

By the way when did your ancestors apply for citizenship? You should compare it to the process we have now.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 01:59 PM
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What people don't realize is that we do need immigrants. Anyone who thinks we "don't have the resources" is thinking simply, and don't understand how society and economy works.

First off, the baby boomers are retiring. 76 million of them. There are only 46 million workers. We will need immigrants to fill the shortages.

Caps on immigration force over 20,000 college educated students each year to leave to find work. We barely have more immigration cards than Australia, despite the population being 14X larger.

We need to add 25 million workers to the workforce in order to sustain the current economic growth.

Immigrants also create jobs. For every 100 H1-B visas issued results in 183 jobs created for U.S.-born workers.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 02:00 PM
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nixie_nox

Advantage

nixie_nox
Exactly how is immigration going to hurt the country?


Bad timing Nix. Im an immigration proponent and want a retool and streamlining of our process, but when we already have so many out of work, industry is dead, and we have too many on welfare now... opening the doors will cause chaos. Too many people and not enough jobs ( or ones that pay a wage where a person can actually feed themselves).
edit on 5-2-2014 by Advantage because: (no reason given)


I like you Advantage, even if we don't always agree. So I will refute respectfully.

Let me start off by saying that I don't believe in blanket amnesty or an open door policy. But if a person was brought here at 2 years old, went to school here, is going to college, no criminal record. Make them a citizen.
I also agree that no one should make money off of paying someone third world rates.

I am not saying the process isn't crazy. In fact, I think it is a little too difficult. I worked with a girl who spent 7 years trying to get her citizenship. She was here on a work visa. The astounding costs bankrupted her family. After all that, she was sent packing.
THAT is also a crime.

What industry is dead?

The largest recipient of welfare is white.

What jobs are there not enough of?

These are blanket statements in what is otherwise a complicated employment society.

There are sectors where they can't fill the positions.

So you shouldn't remove options for a people based on blanket statements.

Do you really want to punish the kid who is getting a degree in nursing who was brought here when they were 2?

Because they are certainly not a welfare recipient. They are not taking minimum wage jobs.



Argh... it didnt post!

I agree with nearly all youve said... but if someone is proposing flinging the door open, blanket statements apply. There are MANY more things we can do.. including the "illegals' children" issues. There shouldnt be a all or nothing approach, and that is exactly what our govt is pressing : all or nothing, because - they wouldnt get off of their asses and deal with the problem ina timely manner.
This country was BUILT on immigrants backs and blood. Its what Americs IS. If we can right a few things, we can flourish again.. due to immigration. Firstly we have to right a few things, which our govt ( right and left) absolutely refuse to do.
edit on 5-2-2014 by Advantage because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 02:07 PM
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reply to post by Bassago
 


As long as American business can profit from low wage labor from immigrants, primarily Mexicans; not only will legal and illegal immigration not stop; it will increase.

So the conservatives that normally support business above the workers find themselves in a quandary and splintering into groups of ineffectual political has beens.

Even the glorified leader of the Conservative movement, Rush Limbaugh, can't get any heavy weight advertisers among big business....

The irony is astonishing.

The upcoming Democrat mantra is going to be "Corporations are not people" What voter demographic do you think this will resonate with?




edit on 5-2-2014 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 02:16 PM
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olaru12
reply to post by Bassago
 


As long as American business can profit from low wage labor from immigrants, primarily Mexicans; not only will legal and illegal immigration not stop; it will increase.

So the conservatives that normally support business above the workers find themselves in a quandary and splintering into groups of ineffectual political has beens.

Even the glorified leader of the Conservative movement, Rush Limbaugh, can't get any heavy weight advertisers among big business....

The irony is astonishing.




I know right? I mean this is just capitalism at work. The biggest cost to a business is labor most of the time, so it makes sense that in a capitalist economy the worker that demands the lower wage will get the job 95% of the time.

It's also highly ironic how Conservatives bitch about big bad government, but they would gladly support a national ID card for everyone and giving cops the power to stop anyone and ask them for an ID.

Just look at how they gladly supported SB1070 in Arizona



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 02:34 PM
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Nobody needs to do anything.

Time will eventually destroy SOME of archaic conservative ideals. I would not mind some "too" liberal ideals go away with it as well.

You know what!! Lets cut off welfare completely. Some poor immigrants will suffer.

You know who would suffer the worst? Citizen('Muricans) in the Red States. Considering Red States and (lets not bring race in there but)is the ones that take in most welfare.

Right wing just shoot themselves in the foot.
edit on 2/5/2014 by luciddream because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 02:37 PM
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reply to post by muse7
 




Then you should at least be familiar with the process of applying for citizenship then no? You'd know that there is no way to simply get in line and wait for your turn right? No one is denying that these people broke the law by coming here illegally, that's why a lot of people support a process to give these people an opportunity to become part of this country by paying fines, back taxes, getting to the back of the line and learning English.

I believe in giving people who have committed a crime a second opportunity.

By the way when did your ancestors apply for citizenship? You should compare it to the process we have now.


Yes familiar but by no means an expert and yes I'm sure things have changed in the 60 - 90 years since much of my family became naturalized citizens. Bureaucrats seem to love complexity and paperwork.

I have no problem with reviewing, updating and even easing immigration policies to people who are willing to follow the rules. A friend of mine was sent back to Ireland simply because he couldn't get his work visa extended. There are definite problems.

I'm less inclined to worry about illegal foreigners (whether they pay the fine or not) when we have tens of millions of our own citizens in dire need of a second chance due to say the failed war on drugs.


It's also highly ironic how Conservatives bitch about big bad government, but they would gladly support a national ID card for everyone and giving cops the power to stop anyone and ask them for an ID.

I don't believe that's true. I don't know a single conservative person who supports such a thing. Please don't use the pols from DC as examples either.
edit on 903pm1212pm22014 by Bassago because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 05:15 PM
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Advantage

nixie_nox

Advantage

nixie_nox
Exactly how is immigration going to hurt the country?


Bad timing Nix. Im an immigration proponent and want a retool and streamlining of our process, but when we already have so many out of work, industry is dead, and we have too many on welfare now... opening the doors will cause chaos. Too many people and not enough jobs ( or ones that pay a wage where a person can actually feed themselves).
edit on 5-2-2014 by Advantage because: (no reason given)


I like you Advantage, even if we don't always agree. So I will refute respectfully.

Let me start off by saying that I don't believe in blanket amnesty or an open door policy. But if a person was brought here at 2 years old, went to school here, is going to college, no criminal record. Make them a citizen.
I also agree that no one should make money off of paying someone third world rates.

I am not saying the process isn't crazy. In fact, I think it is a little too difficult. I worked with a girl who spent 7 years trying to get her citizenship. She was here on a work visa. The astounding costs bankrupted her family. After all that, she was sent packing.
THAT is also a crime.

What industry is dead?

The largest recipient of welfare is white.

What jobs are there not enough of?

These are blanket statements in what is otherwise a complicated employment society.

There are sectors where they can't fill the positions.

So you shouldn't remove options for a people based on blanket statements.

Do you really want to punish the kid who is getting a degree in nursing who was brought here when they were 2?

Because they are certainly not a welfare recipient. They are not taking minimum wage jobs.



Argh... it didnt post!

I agree with nearly all youve said... but if someone is proposing flinging the door open, blanket statements apply. There are MANY more things we can do.. including the "illegals' children" issues. There shouldnt be a all or nothing approach, and that is exactly what our govt is pressing : all or nothing, because - they wouldnt get off of their asses and deal with the problem ina timely manner.
This country was BUILT on immigrants backs and blood. Its what Americs IS. If we can right a few things, we can flourish again.. due to immigration. Firstly we have to right a few things, which our govt ( right and left) absolutely refuse to do.
edit on 5-2-2014 by Advantage because: (no reason given)



I see what you are saying.I don't think all government is proposing blanket amnesty. My liberal governor, who plans on being a 2016 potus contender, put up a bill to give amnesty under the conditions I have listed. No criminal record, must have been here at least 15 year, pay back taxes for like 5 years, and more. I think that is fair.

I am glad you brought up the second paragraph, that this country was built on immigrant's backs. We wouldn't of had the railroad without the Chinese. When Tombstone was the NYC of the west, the population was 15k. But they didn't count Chinese in the census. So the population was actually 33,000.

The government hasn't completely ignored the issue. We have spent a fortune on the southern border. We have a lot of illegal Canadians too, but since they blend in so well (they are from "Minnesota") that many Americans don't even know that we have them.

I am not crazy about the illegal immigrants who come here to make a buck, send it back to their country, and then leave, either. They are just taking advantage. And the attitude of some is just horrible, not to mention the crime. I certainly don't believe in giving these people amnesty. But at this point, there are so many, the resources to handle them would be astounding. I am not sure what the answer is to that one.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 05:19 PM
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olaru12
reply to post by Bassago
 


As long as American business can profit from low wage labor from immigrants, primarily Mexicans; not only will legal and illegal immigration not stop; it will increase.


The amount of illegal immigration has slowed greatly. Even among illegals, there is still an economy. With the economic downturn, there was less building, therefor less jobs for them. Some even ended up going back home. There is no point in coming here if you can't find a job.

I think the answer is there. There must be more of a push to force these companies to have to hire legal labor. But Americans like paying a much reduced price for everything. As long as that happens, there will be a problem.

Just like walmart will continue booming by selling toxic, cheap crap because people are more concerned with getting salt n pepper shakers for a dollar than for their neighbors to make a living salary, and will continue to support that business.



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 05:26 PM
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nixie_nox
What people don't realize is that we do need immigrants. Anyone who thinks we "don't have the resources" is thinking simply, and don't understand how society and economy works.

First off, the baby boomers are retiring. 76 million of them. There are only 46 million workers. We will need immigrants to fill the shortages.

Caps on immigration force over 20,000 college educated students each year to leave to find work. We barely have more immigration cards than Australia, despite the population being 14X larger.

We need to add 25 million workers to the workforce in order to sustain the current economic growth.

Immigrants also create jobs. For every 100 H1-B visas issued results in 183 jobs created for U.S.-born workers.


OF course we welcome immigrants.

They just need to be legal and follow our laws.

We don't need unskilled and uneducated people to swell our welfare roles, however, we need skilled and educated people.

It is harder for an engineer from Sweden who speaks English fluently to emigrate and become a US citizen than an uneducated one from a third world country with no skills and no language. We can thank Hart-Celler and IMMACT for that.



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