An Open Letter to Lovers of the Gun

reply to post by SuperFrog

because we are unable to prohibit or control heroin, which is largely result of bad control of guns

Are you saying that heroin can't be controlled because the dealers have guns. That would mean that most heroin deals involve a gun battle with the police that the police lose.... you did say largely.

Guns overall, including hand guns and riffles kill more people than those other object you mentioned. Assault riffle made possible some tragical events, also showed in video.

Yet the anti-gun lobby has been focused on banning assault rifles only.... why is that?
Also, let's add all other deaths together, against guns, if we are going to lump all guns together. Include all suicides in that because anti-gunners always lump suicide by gun in with gun violence.

I don't agree that more guns means more safety, where all data points that this is not true.

More guns may not correlate to more safety, of course. They are dangerous things. Just like cars, if there are fewer of them, there will be fewer deaths. I am not saying that though. More gun control does not correlate to more safety.... see Chicago, Illinois as an example. The reason? Gun control only controls law abiding citizens.... the criminals still have guns.

You omitted to comment who made guns used by criminals, how did those large quantities of guns get into wrong hands. What we can do to prevent that?

Nope, I covered that. It is irrelevant who makes the guns. If the gun is being used by a criminal, existing laws are already being broken, whether possession of a firearm by a felon or by using a gun in the commission of a crime, which is a crime in most states.
It is also irrelevant for the reason that I previously stated. If guns were totally illegal, guns would be made by enterprising criminals and sold illegally... to other criminals. You know that methamphetamine is illegal to make in your house, but I am pretty sure there are busts all over the country where guys are doing it... to make money. Ever hear of a television series called 'Breaking Bad' ? There will always be criminals that want to make an easy buck. Making a law outlawing firearms or making them prohibitively expensive would only open up a large black market arms industry.

Now you tell me, How do you prevent that?

SuperFrog
Compare something made just to kill people with tools, cars, airplanes, bubble gum, condoms...

Are you now just trying to be funny, or do you seriously think that firearms are only manufactured with the narrow purpose of taking human life.

If you could literally be more ignorant, I wouldn't believe it.

SuperFrog
Assault riffle made possible some tragical events, also showed in video.

I don't seem to have found any situation where an "assault rifle" was not only used, but was the reason why someone was able to carry out said instance.

Did senator de Leon bring you up to speed on firearms?

reply to post by SuperFrog


Guns are only designed to kill people?

First off.... there are well over 300 million guns in civilian hands in the United States by department of justice estimates, and less that 400 rifle murders a year and under a 100 thousand deaths from all types of guns total in a year. So .... obviously people use them for stuff other than killing... either that or they're SPECTACULARLY ineffective at their "job" by your logic.

See you can just call an argument a failure and then post a blatant LIE to "refute" it but you WILL be called on it time and again.

You are, plainly put, a LIAR who is using shady tactics because your argument has no validity.

This isn't a DEBATE.... this is one ignoramus being put in their place over and over again by an entire litany of better educated people.

You can keep THINKING whatever you like but the reality is you are just making yourself look shadier than a used car salesman the more you talk.

SlapMonkey

SuperFrog
Compare something made just to kill people with tools, cars, airplanes, bubble gum, condoms...

Are you now just trying to be funny, or do you seriously think that firearms are only manufactured with the narrow purpose of taking human life.

If you could literally be more ignorant, I wouldn't believe it.

Yes, there are other purpose of guns.... www.enduringvision.com...

You guys should really stop joking...




What is really purpose of gun? Here is little quote of person who's work I admire:

When you carry a gun, you mean to harm somebody, kill somebody.
Bill Cosby

roguetechie
reply to post by SuperFrog

 

Guns are only designed to kill people?

First off.... there are well over 300 million guns in civilian hands in the United States by department of justice estimates, and less that 400 rifle murders a year and under a 100 thousand deaths from all types of guns total in a year. So .... obviously people use them for stuff other than killing... either that or they're SPECTACULARLY ineffective at their "job" by your logic.

See you can just call an argument a failure and then post a blatant LIE to "refute" it but you WILL be called on it time and again.

You are, plainly put, a LIAR who is using shady tactics because your argument has no validity.

This isn't a DEBATE.... this is one ignoramus being put in their place over and over again by an entire litany of better educated people.

You can keep THINKING whatever you like but the reality is you are just making yourself look shadier than a used car salesman the more you talk.

Once better educated beings such as yourself learn to respect that others don't have to agree to them just as sign of pack in instance when we talk about some of 'hunting urges' that many express here, we can talk. Until then, you and similar posts will be avoided in future discussions.

Just hint for you - start worrying about your gunz only if President says that you can keep it.

reply to post by SuperFrog


This is what we use our guns for in my household:

www.dosplumashuntingranch.com...

The sidearms....when you are on the hunt at 5am, and its dark, the hog has an advantage. it can smell you when y ou can't see it. They are nearly blind, so in the dark they are advantaged. I have had to use my sidearm more than once to get a group of hogs to back off of me in the dark. A hog tusk to the gut area, or catching an artery in the leg, is a bad way to die out in the middle of the West Texas brushland.

I wonder....have you ever spent any meaningful time outside of the city? Do you know anything about living out here in the country? Have you ever had to shoot a large hog that was threatening your family? Ever looked a bobcat or mountain lion in the eyes while you were away from anyting to protect you?

ETA: anyone interested in the above link, Dos Plumas is a great, great hunting trip. Low cost, and you better be ready to field dress your own animals...but Brice is a good guy and makes a good hunt.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

A hog tusk to the gut area, or catching an artery in the leg, is a bad way to die out in the middle of the West Texas brushland.

That's no lie.
As a child, I had a schoolmate whose father nearly died when a domestic hog gashed his leg. The femoral artery was cut, and he would have bled out there if his son wasn't there to put his belt around his leg to stop the bleeding. This was an old sow and she used the upper diamond-shaped tusk to cut him. The lower tusk rubs against the upper tooth and sharpens both of them when the hog eats.

reply to post by SuperFrog

When you carry a gun, you mean to harm somebody, kill somebody. Bill Cosby

So you believe this?

If so, then every cop goes to work with the intention of killing someone. (cops carry guns you know)
Even I don't believe that.

reply to post by SuperFrog

Just hint for you - start worrying about your gunz only if President says that you can keep it.

BTW, this was really good.
I liked it and almost starred your post.

reply to post by FyreByrd


I think it is crazy to hear people talk about gun control. How quickly would they change their minds if they were victims of some vial violent crime. If you had wife or loved one raped or killed and if you had a weapon could have protected them. How quickly most people change their minds about guns after suffering a crime.

The bad guys will always have guns. Most of them can't get guns legally but yet they still have them. No matter how many laws you pass they will always break them and have guns.

As for all the shootings don't you read the forums, it is all just a conspiracy. Now I don't really think it is, but I will say I would not be surprised if it were so.

The past few years should be enough to show everyone that the government and other forces will do anything, anything to further their agenda. Guns are not the problem.

Instead why don't you talk about the real issue, mental health. The unspoken illness in our society. The major shootings were all done by the mentally challenged. Instead of talking about gun control how about talk about what we can do to help the mentally impaired.

Increase the number of beds and treatment facilities. Create treatment programs. Many end up suffering terribly in our prisons when they should be in hospitals. But, because we don't have programs to help them they end up in prison.

Mental illness is suffered by everyone at some point in their lives. Not me you say. Yes you. Everyone has been depressed etc. Some it effects more than others but it is a form of mental illness. We need to put more money into understanding mental illness and helping those who are sick.

Did you see sixty minutes Sunday. The senator would have never been stabbed and his son not killed if there would have been a bed. There was no bed in any facility for him.

We don't need gun control, we need the guts to talk about the real issues like mental illness.

The Bot

SuperFrog
reply to post by butcherguy

 

You actually bring rather good point - because we are unable to prohibit or control heroin, which is largely result of bad control of guns, we should do nothing about it?? Same goes for guns? That was well covered by Jon Stewart video. So, IMHO it would be good side-product of gun control and less crime.

Guns overall, including hand guns and riffles kill more people than those other object you mentioned. Assault riffle made possible some tragical events, also showed in video.

It is all common sense, really.

Sorry about bully comment, just got tired from some insults because I don't agree that more guns means more safety, where all data points that this is not true.

You omitted to comment who made guns used by criminals, how did those large quantities of guns get into wrong hands. What we can do to prevent that?


@ 8675309jenny

There is 41 TIMES LESS gun related deaths per 100K in UK. So, yes - you got it a bit wrong. Click here to view related post.

8675309jenny
You clearly aren't qualified to involve yourself in this debate.

You really are incapable to restrain your self from provocations and outbursts? Do you really own a gun? You are best example of people who would worry me if they posses guns.

Does bad experience with people with guns make me qualified for debate? If that is case, what makes you qualified to evaluate my qualifications... again, at least this was not blunt attack like last time. Thank you!

So, all the heroin gets in the country via a gun battle? I know I live in the country and that it seems makes me kind of stupid in so many people's eyes. But I have lived in some of the biggest cities in this country and from then to now I don't remember any heroin smugglers using armed conflict to get heroin on American shores so some asshat can sell it in happy meals in a McD's drive thru. In fact I don't think many smugglers even carry a gun because it would draw attention to themselves.

Another thing I remember about cities was some of these urban gardens of Eden had very strict gun laws; some still do. But still somehow these bad people get guns that many due to previous offenses should not be able to obtain a firearm. But they can because when something is illegal much like those bad guys getting guns or smugglers of heroin use the underground black markets to get what they need. Just like they do in other countries.

But at the end of the day your position is to punish me and those like me for something that I have not done. Being I am a collector I own..A few firearms. Not one has ever been used in an illegal act. But that somehow warrants me to be punished anyway?

So much of he gun control debate brings up the modern sporting rifle (you might call that an assault rifle...A very untrue definition). This particular type of rifle has been involved in less crimes than ...anything else that is used to commit similar crimes. But it is singles out anyway. Why? Because it scares people like you. It looks like a military rifle so it must be the same...It is not. One round per trigger pull. No different than my Ruger 22 rifle (a rifle I can put a similar looking stock on). I own an AR15, I use it for coyotes because it is very effective. But it still is just another semi automatic firearm.

Just because something can be used for bad things should not make the argument that it needs restricted. I only have 10 round mags for my 22. But I can load 10 mags and put them in my pocket if I wanted and drop and load a fresh one in a couple seconds. I could...But I don't. Scary looking guns are not the problem. I do think a lack of scary guns in places where these crazy people go to do their bad things is a problem though. All the bad things like mass shootings don't happen where people might be able to defend themselves. They happen in places where the control of guns is the most strict.

So stop worrying about good people that just want to hunt and/or defend themselves. They wont hurt you. And for Gods sake think of the children and support an end to gun free zones. It's a bad persons favorite target to do illegal things that effect ones right to pursue their happiness one day.

dlbott
reply to post by FyreByrd

 

I think it is crazy to hear people talk about gun control. How quickly would they change their minds if they were victims of some vial violent crime. If you had wife or loved one raped or killed and if you had a weapon could have protected them. How quickly most people change their minds about guns after suffering a crime.

The bad guys will always have guns. Most of them can't get guns legally but yet they still have them. No matter how many laws you pass they will always break them and have guns.

As for all the shootings don't you read the forums, it is all just a conspiracy. Now I don't really think it is, but I will say I would not be surprised if it were so.

The past few years should be enough to show everyone that the government and other forces will do anything, anything to further their agenda. Guns are not the problem.

Instead why don't you talk about the real issue, mental health. The unspoken illness in our society. The major shootings were all done by the mentally challenged. Instead of talking about gun control how about talk about what we can do to help the mentally impaired.

Increase the number of beds and treatment facilities. Create treatment programs. Many end up suffering terribly in our prisons when they should be in hospitals. But, because we don't have programs to help them they end up in prison.

Mental illness is suffered by everyone at some point in their lives. Not me you say. Yes you. Everyone has been depressed etc. Some it effects more than others but it is a form of mental illness. We need to put more money into understanding mental illness and helping those who are sick.

Did you see sixty minutes Sunday. The senator would have never been stabbed and his son not killed if there would have been a bed. There was no bed in any facility for him.

We don't need gun control, we need the guts to talk about the real issues like mental illness.

The Bot

Your post reminds me of this old Orwell quote:
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

The cowardly are those who abrogate their safety completely to other men with guns and refuse to take responsibility for their own well being upon themselves.

reply to post by SuperFrog


Where are you from. You do not sound like an American. This explains allot. It is no mistake that our right to bare arms is so high on the constitutional list. We don't need you or Obama to give us permission to have and bare arms. Did you get the bare part.

It is only a matter of time until that part of the constitution is put to the test again. See how fast, go ahead try and take our guns.

Go stick your head back in the sand.

The Bot

reply to post by NavyDoc


Nice quote doc and from one veteran to another thanks for service. I won't even hold against you for being Navy lol. Thanks for saving our brothers and sisters, you sir are hero in my book. Hooooorah

Me, my family is not going to become a crime statistic waiting for someone else to come and protect us, lol. Show up here and you will get what you didn't come for, lead.

These gun control nuts are lucky they have brave men and women willing to protect them.

The Bot

Mods, sorry bout double post, tablet hosed please remove one thanks for your hard work.

reply to post by NavyDoc


Nice quote doc and from one veteran to another thanks for service. I won't even hold against you for being Navy lol. Thanks for saving our brothers and sisters, you sir are hero in my book. Hooooorah

Me, my family is not going to become a crime statistic waiting for someone else to come and protect us, lol. Show up here and you will get what you didn't come for, lead.

These gun control nuts are lucky they have brave men and women willing to protect them.

The Bot

SuperFrog
reply to post by Galvatron

 

reply to post by butcherguy

Fail argument is fail argument, and from videos posted above you could see why. Compare something made just to kill people with tools, cars, airplanes, bubble gum, condoms... radicalization mostly made by NRA followers does not very well to explain why we have for example 41 times more murders per 100,000 people than for example England. If you have nothing smart to bring to discussion, please stop trolling.

How can anyone explain why the US has 41 times the killings in England? England has banned guns! there shouldn't be any gun deaths over there, and you are saying someone else is trolling?
Explain why in Chicago there are any gun deaths? Maybe because "gun control and gun bans" DONT WORK? Don't keep me in suspense here..

bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by SuperFrog

 

all data does not point that this is not true. Some data does, yes. And the obvious point of there has to be a gun present to enable a gun to be used is duly noted and agreed upon.

I think people keep asking the same question over and over, though: why do we focus on "gun death"? Is being murdered by a gun somehow worse than being bludgeoned or stabbed? Most would argue that it is likely a less painful death if you are shot rather than beaten to death. But all that aside....is the US more likely to see people murdered on any higher degree?

There are a few reasons to forcus on gun violence. First and formost, we can easily do without them. We don't need guns to survive (I'll address your following point there). We don't live in a society that requires hunting in order to provide shelter, food and clothing.

2) Guns can, and do, cause much more extensive damage then do other weapons, in normal hands (not TV superheros). Also, guns are a stand off weapon and can be used from a distance without the wielder taking much risk. To murder a person with a knife, a cast iron pan, a tree limb or your fists requires the perpertrator to be "up close and personal" and because of it, the 'target' is more likely to defend against and survive the attack.

Which lead me to:

And that is the REAL crux of the issue here for me, and many others who support the 2A: if the government is willing to utilize guns as leverage for power, why on Gods green earth would we want to give up our own leverage?

This is the argument of a child - "Everybody else is doing it...." While I agree that the US doesn't have a moral leg to stand on in this arena, it's no more valid an argument then it was when you were a child (maybe excuse is a better way to state it).

I am willing to tolerate the rough seas of liberty a little in order to keep an eye on Big Brother. Big Brother is a bigger psychopath than any lunatic with a gun.

Anyone, you, me, can be insane without warning due to physical, emotional or mental impairment. Any impaired person is a danger to themselves and others and removing guns from this, very common, situation can save lives and reduce suffering.

On a side note - psychopaths are probably the safest gun owners as they are not subject to emotional upheaval.

I see so much justification and very little, excluding some noteable posts, reason. When our faith or sense of self is threatened, we all react irrationally, myself very much included. When we feel threatened we react and we regret.

FyreByrd

There are a few reasons to forcus on gun violence. First and formost, we can easily do without them. We don't need guns to survive (I'll address your following point there). We don't live in a society that requires hunting in order to provide shelter, food and clothing.

How do you know this? I know several people (mostly in Wyoming) that, without hunting, would not be able to feed themselves. It is the society that THEY live in, anyway. And that is still America.

My society that I live in...we hunt as a combination of recreation and providing food. Some of us like to keep in touch with that aspect of being human: to be outdoors and provide our own food. There are multiple life lessons that can be had by the process, and I use those processes to teach my sons those lessons. It is important to me. It is my culture. It is the way we have been for as far back as when we settled this area a few generations back.

Besides, who are you (or anyone else) to decide what people need and need not do? Where is the concept of "Freedom" in that?

2) Guns can, and do, cause much more extensive damage then do other weapons, in normal hands (not TV superheros). Also, guns are a stand off weapon and can be used from a distance without the wielder taking much risk. To murder a person with a knife, a cast iron pan, a tree limb or your fists requires the perpertrator to be "up close and personal" and because of it, the 'target' is more likely to defend against and survive the attack.

Well, i think the issue of sniper deaths is not something that is really a concern on anyones mind on a typical day in America. I know I don't concern myself with scouting for snipers before I leave the hosue, anyway.

But all that is deflection. Sure, it seems logical, and all that....but I keep asking for numbers to support that more guns = more murders. Not more "gun deaths", or "gun violence". I want to see that America, with our insane possession of "killing machines" results in a higher rate of murder.

The numbers I see are 4.1 for the US, and 1.7 for UK (per 100k). Global is 7.9. However, Canada (whose gun restrictions aren't too far off from the US when compared to the UK) is 1.6. If you look at the US, the biggest regions of murder is in the south, where people have been noted to be at a higher risk for any kind of violent crime. Our northern states are in line with the EU and Canada.

This is the argument of a child - "Everybody else is doing it...." While I agree that the US doesn't have a moral leg to stand on in this arena, it's no more valid an argument then it was when you were a child (maybe excuse is a better way to state it).

This isn't about "Well, they have one". This is about leverage. Your government is not your friend. You should return the favor to them. I am not saying you are enemies....only that you likely should be watching them cautiously. With a round in the chamber.

Uncle Sam showed his value for life with the way he leveraged guns against people who didn't have guns. Fast and Furious highlights how little Uncle Sam values life, and how they will leverage fear, terror, and violence for their benefit.

Mind you, i didn't say "our benefit". Can you imagine a scenario where gun running to Mexico is benefitting The People?

Anyone, you, me, can be insane without warning due to physical, emotional or mental impairment. Any impaired person is a danger to themselves and others and removing guns from this, very common, situation can save lives and reduce suffering.

On a side note - psychopaths are probably the safest gun owners as they are not subject to emotional upheaval.

I see so much justification and very little, excluding some noteable posts, reason. When our faith or sense of self is threatened, we all react irrationally, myself very much included. When we feel threatened we react and we regret.

We are discussing here.

If you want reason, then it all ends with, "Who are you to decide what makes someone else safer? Why should I go without something I want just because of your fear? Where do my rights begin? Anywhere where your fear doesn't reside?"

You should have the freedom to not own one. I should have the freedom to own one. It is that simple. I do not believe you have lived outside of the city. I don't believe you have ever had to shoot a wild predator to protect your family. I don't believe you understand the cultural attachment to outdoorsmanship that we can have in non-urban areas.

There are many good reasons given to you. I don't think you have given a single good reason to support your argument, for what its worth. Other than your fear....which shouldn't be my concern.

Dang frog you are really good at digging logic holes and loosing arguments,You should run as a Democrat!

SuperFrog
reply to post by butcherguy

 

You actually bring rather good point - because we are unable to prohibit or control heroin, which is largely result of bad control of guns, we should do nothing about it?? Same goes for guns? That was well covered by Jon Stewart video. So, IMHO it would be good side-product of gun control and less crime.

Guns overall, including hand guns and riffles kill more people than those other object you mentioned. Assault riffle made possible some tragical events, also showed in video.

It is all common sense, really.

Sorry about bully comment, just got tired from some insults because I don't agree that more guns means more safety, where all data points that this is not true.

You omitted to comment who made guns used by criminals, how did those large quantities of guns get into wrong hands. What we can do to prevent that?


@ 8675309jenny

There is 41 TIMES LESS gun related deaths per 100K in UK. So, yes - you got it a bit wrong. Click here to view related post.

8675309jenny
You clearly aren't qualified to involve yourself in this debate.

You really are incapable to restrain your self from provocations and outbursts? Do you really own a gun? You are best example of people who would worry me if they posses guns.

Does bad experience with people with guns make me qualified for debate? If that is case, what makes you qualified to evaluate my qualifications... again, at least this was not blunt attack like last time. Thank you!

What is your first language and your age?