"Wages of Sin is Death", a Bad Translation

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

No. That is not what people think. Nor is that what anyone here is telling you. You are the only one talking about sin "currency". No one else is. You either have "sin" on you or you don't, it does not accrue, it's a 0 or 1 situation. Everyone who has ever lived will end up with a 1.

I have heard two different preachers use it that way in the last week in church.
That is why I am studying this verse, because they are ignoring what Paul meant and are reciting some sort of made up theology of an exchange that Jesus participates in to pay a supposed sin debt.

I did come up with the term "currency", but this what is being dealt with in what this theology I am describing amounts to, from my understanding of what those people were preaching.

Ummm what?
1Cr 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Cr 15:4
that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Your understanding of scripture is seriously lacking.

I understand what the verses actually say.
You have an understanding of what some people theorize and use those verses for "proof texts".

reply to post by jmdewey60


No. It's quite clear. Here are other verses with the same word. The only one who wishes this word to have a different meaning is you. It means EXACTLY what I have been saying it means.

Luk 3:14
Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?” He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.”

1Cr 9:7
Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink the milk?

reply to post by jmdewey60


I didn't hear them, so I have no idea what they were saying. Your belief the Bible does not teach Jesus died for our sins is in error, I proved it so already. Your understanding of this verse is in error. The different verses where this word is used in the Bible shows it was used in VERY MUCH the same way we use it today, and has a multifaceted meaning. It does not mean food or whatever else you want it to mean.

reply to post by jmdewey60


NIV?

I'll give it a go if I can KJV it...

reply to post by Klassified

Simplicity is always best. You're complicating something that isn't.

Paul used rhetoric that seems complex to people today dumbed down by watching TV.

Wages: This can be a single payment for services rendered, or it can be a regular payment for continuous services rendered. Either way, the meaning doesn't change.

Again, you are talking about the English word as it is understood today, rather than the Greek word that Paul was using and how it would have been understood by people in Rome at that time.

"Sin" is the employer in this verse, and you are the employee. What sin pays you equates to death. Whether it is one lump sum, or stretched out over a period of time. You still die in sins service.

OK, I think that is right. But, most people never think it through like that.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Enlighten us, when the verse says Christ died for our sins, what does it mean?

1Pe 2:24
“He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”

1Jo 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Enlighten us how Jesus did NOT die for our sins.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

No. It's quite clear. Here are other verses with the same word. The only one who wishes this word to have a different meaning is you. It means EXACTLY what I have been saying it means.

You keep talking about the English word, "wage".
My thread title says that it is a bad translation.
What that means is that the Bible was not originally written in English.
It was written in other languages, for example Hellenistic Greek (the Old Testament) and Koine Greek (the New Testament).

Luk 3:14
Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?” He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.”

1Cr 9:7
Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink the milk?

"Pay" is an English word. It is put into the verse in whatever English translation that you are quoting.
It says nothing about doing anything in order to receive that "pay".

Paul was given a living.
You can find the same sort of thing in nineteenth century writings talking about people in certain positions, given a "living, for example as the vicar of a parish.

In the second verse that you are quoting, it is talking about a soldier, where they don't serve in the military and live on their own money.
It would be expected that the kingdom that they were to fight for would feed them.

Luke 3:14

John is telling the soldiers to follow the one who is about to come and be happy with those wages...

"Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages."

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

I didn't hear them, so I have no idea what they were saying.

People have over time on this forum written very similar, if not exactly the same thing.

Your belief the Bible does not teach Jesus died for our sins is in error, I proved it so already.

I said that the Bible does not teach that Jesus paid for our sins. Obviously Jesus did die, and he would not have done that if we were not in a situation brought about by sin.

Your understanding of this verse is in error.

I would appeal to authority here, that I am in agreement with the recognized leading expert on the Book of Romans today, which is Robert Jewett who wrote the commentary for that book for the Hermeneia Bible Commentary Series.

The different verses where this word is used in the Bible shows it was used in VERY MUCH the same way we use it today, and has a multifaceted meaning.

I would disagree with that slightly, but then would you please explain what it means in Romans 6:23.

It does not mean food or whatever else you want it to mean.

Actually it does.
The literal original meaning of that Greek word was a specific type of food.

jmdewey60
So can you explain how death can be a living? A wage is your living. If death is your payment that you live on, then it wouldn't be a wage.

Well if you ask for a living wage, you are called a socialist so...

reply to post by Cuervo


a living wage is being like the one who is to come...

imo

reply to post by SisyphusRide

NIV?

I use that as the standard version, whether I agree with its translation or not.

I'll give it a go if I can KJV it...

Go ahead.
If I disagree with a translation, I will point it out.

reply to post by jmdewey60

ok I had a little edit up there, I am not to familiar with that part of the book...

but reading it from 7 -14 in KJV I feel it is saying the wages of being a good person are just and rewarding enough.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

and it is because there is something satisfactory about it...

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

Enlighten us, when the verse says Christ died for our sins, what does it mean?

1Pe 2:24
“He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”

1Jo 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Enlighten us how Jesus did NOT die for our sins.

You are here, and over there is your sins.
Jesus is standing there in front of you.
He turns away from you and says to your sins, "I died for you."

I never said that Jesus did not die for our sins.
Can you get that?
I said that he did not pay for them.
Can you see the difference?

it is wrong to feel good about bringing water when one sees a fire beginning to grow and grow in intensity in such a short time at and ever increasing rate?

I don't feel so...

reply to post by SisyphusRide

Luke 3:14

John is telling the soldiers to follow the one who is about to come and be happy with those wages...

"Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages."

These were Roman soldiers.
They didn't have to actually do anything in particular in order to get their daily food ration.
Suppose you were far away from your homeland and didn't have your family nearby to lend you further comforts like a nice place to live, and company and some wine probably.
What you might be tempted to do is to come up with ways to use your position to make money by, for example, extortion.
You could come up to someone and say, "Ahah! I just saw you breaking Roman law and I should haul you off to prison as a criminal, unless of course you wanted to pay me a bribe to forget about it and just give you a warning."

Now that we've got onto "for our sins";

In Romans ch4 v25, the word translated "for" is actually DIA, which has the basic meaning "through". Being followed by a noun in the accusative case, as here, it means "the ground or reason on account of which anything is done". "Our sins" is being given as the reason or the occasion for the death of Christ.

In 1 John ch 4 v10, the word "for" translates PERI, which has the basic meaning "about". But being used in this particular way, it means, once again, that the word which follows is the cause of something being done.

reply to post by jmdewey60


yes they were Roman Soldiers... I seen Ben Hur.

it is an honor to earn a living wage fighting the fire on the front line.

reply to post by DISRAELI

Being followed by a noun in the accusative case, as here, it means "the ground or reason on account of which anything is done".

What is the "as here" that you are talking about?
Sorry but I lost track of what the two things are that you are comparing.
Romans ch4 v25 and 1 John ch 4 v10, I guess.

The Romans verse is talking about our lawlessness.

The 1 John verse seems to be talking about a resolution to our sinfulness.
Jesus is the means of that resolution.
We come to him in a purity that he represents.
Jesus was accepted by God despite his awful death, and we can also be accepted even though we have what (according to the old written law) is sin.
This doesn't seem important to us today because we have done a pretty good job of getting away from the idea that we could actually be held to the stipulations described in the Old Testament.

reply to post by jmdewey60


John also addressed everyone who were included in the naming "generation of vipers"

there was no discrimination here nor distinguishing...

it is a parable, a metaphor and a bit of literal style commandment, if they so wished to do so.