Khufu Cartouche in Great Pyramid 20,000 Years Old?

greenfox86
reply to post by Scott Creighton

 

I have read long ago that the so called graffiti inscription of King Khufu in the great pyramid was most likely a hoax. I was always under the impression that the Egyptian Pharaoh's have huge egos and brag about everything that they have accomplished, and they documented these things with great accuracy.Yet at the top of the great pyramid with in a small crawl space is this one bright red painted inscription that Khufu had the great pyramid built....and yet his name is not in graved or carved in stone anywhere else, but I am suppose to believe his name has been painted in the pyramid...lol, you would think that if he built the great pyramid and wanted to make an eternal impact on the world, and want the world to know it, that he would in grave his name in stone not stamp it with paint. It doesn't make sense, I find the red paint to be very suspect.

The word is "engrave", as in "engraved". We don't know what was or wasn't in these structures. Materials have been looted from them throughout the ages. For all we know he had a neon sign on it saying, "Klub Khufu". I don't agree with your argument.

May have to disagree with the majority here, but what they did was a disgrace. That's the type of behavior that will see tourists banned or have limited access to all or parts of these sites.


Without an independent review of their sample and process etc, their findings are meaningless. Also I'd be surprised if the Cartouche (s) and wall murals wouldn't have been repainted at some point as these had power and meaning (these pyramids were never built as tombs for the dead IMO). So even if the date was found to be much earlier it still wouldn't have been a 'proof' of age.

Perhaps it was the impetuousness and frustration of youth, but we can't allow our ancient sites to be destroyed piece by piece on a fad or a whim.

Where is the proof of this other Lost Civilisation ?

you mean like old soda bottles and shopping bags?

current93
May have to disagree with the majority here, but what they did was a disgrace. That's the type of behavior that will see tourists banned or have limited access to all or parts of these sites.


Without an independent review of their sample and process etc, their findings are meaningless. Also I'd be surprised if the Cartouche (s) and wall murals wouldn't have been repainted at some point as these had power and meaning (these pyramids were never built as tombs for the dead IMO). So even if the date was found to be much earlier it still wouldn't have been a 'proof' of age.

Perhaps it was the impetuousness and frustration of youth, but we can't allow our ancient sites to be destroyed piece by piece on a fad or a whim.

So they repainted the "graffiti" with 20000 yr. old paint? Where would the restorers get paint older than the structure they're restoring? Kind of a silly argument, huh?

If they can prove their point, was it worth preserving a lie?

Is it just me or did the article even say they tried to smuggle paint scrapings out of Egypt and got caught. So if they never smuggled it out how did they test it? Seems they got caught before they ever did. They might think it is 20 thousand years old and wanted to test it. But they got caught before they could ever get any where to do that.

Probably a fanatical muslim who knocked the nose off of it.
Imagine being imagine being a muslim and seeing a statue with a small nose.

If you wanted to claim being a Pharaoh and right ruler of the land wouldn't you be offended by a forign face looming over the land?

Many myths about napoleion shooting off the nose for target practice, but there are earlier sketches from around that time that rendered the damage of the sphinx when they found it.

Did Napoleon's troops shoot the nose off the Sphinx? By Tom Holmberg

Although popular legend blames Napoleon and his troops during the French campaign in Egypt (1798-1801) for having shot the nose off the Great Sphinx, in fact this story just isn't true. I have yet to locate an original source for this myth. The idea that Napoleon was to blame for the Sphinx's missing nose dates at least to the beginning of the twentieth century. One traveler to Egypt around the time of World War One wrote the following: "To take our photos sitting in front of the Sphinx on a camel was the aim of another. ...And so, repulsing the hordes of robbers on all sides, we came to the wonderful, inscrutable, worth-millions-of-pounds-to-authors Sphinx. The great riddle of the mysterious East. How many reams of rubbish have been written about this misshapen block of stone. Napoleon, a practical man, fired a few cannon balls at its face. High explosive shells were not invented in those days." [From: Sommers, Cecil. Temporary Crusaders. (London: John Lane, 1919) Chapter VI. "19th April."]

Another book from about the same time (In the Footsteps of Napoleon (1915) by James Morgan, p 85) states "There is a tradition among the Arabs of the Pyramids that all the scars of time and the wounds of a hundred wars, which the Sphinx carries, were inflicted by Napoleon's soldiers, who used its mystifying and majestic countenance as a target. That, however, is only a legend for the tourist. Long before the discovery of gunpowder, the Arabs had laid iconoclastic hands on the beard of this god of the desert..." Though the Arab guides may have spread this tale, this myth has been perpetuated over the years by countless teachers the world over who have passed this bit of "history" on to their students.

A poll conducted on the Internet found that fully 21% of respondents believed Napoleon was responsible for the Sphinx's missing nose. One of the most recent examples of the persistence of this falsehood was Louis Farrakhan's "Million Man March" speech where he said: "White supremacy caused Napoleon to blow the nose off the Sphinx because it reminded you [sic] too much of the Black man's majesty." And the perpetuation of this myth in "Afrocentric" circles was even the subject of a segment of the U.S. television investigative journalism program "60 Minutes."

This error has persisted in spite of the fact that the truth can be readily found in such common reference sources as the Encyclopedia Americana> (Danbury, CT: Grolier, 1995). vol.25, p.492-3 under "Sphinx", which states: "Over the centuries the Great Sphinx has suffered severely from weathering...Man has been responsible for additional mutilation. In 1380 A.D. the Sphinx fell victim to the iconoclastic ardor of a fanatical Muslim ruler, who caused deplorable injuries to the head. Then the figure was used as a target for the guns of the Mamluks." In the book The Egyptian Pyramids: A Comprehensive Illustrated Reference (Jefferson, NC: McFarland, 1990), p.301, the author, J.P. Lepre, adds the fact that, in addition to the 14th century damage, "The face was further disfigured by the eighteenth century A.D. ruler of Egypt, the Marmalukes [Mamluks]."


European visitors to Egypt prior to Napoleon's expedition had already discovered the vandalism to the Sphinx. In 1546, for example, when Dr. Pierre Belon explored Egypt, he visited "the great colossus." "The Sphinx," writes Leslie Greener in The Discovery Of Egypt (London : Cassell, 1966), p.38, by this time "no longer [had] the stamp of grace and beauty so admired by Abdel Latif in 1200." Greener goes on to say: "this exonerates the artillerymen of Napoleon Bonaparte, who have the popular reputation of having used the nose of the Sphinx as a target." The charge against Napoleon is particularly unjust because the French general brought with him a large group of "savants" to conduct the first scientific study of Egypt and its antiquities.


Finally, an article by Ulrich Haarmann, "Regional Sentiment in Medieval Islamic Egypt," published in the University of London's Bulletin Of The School Of Oriental And African Studies (BSOAS), vol.43 (1980) p.55-66, states that according to Makrizi, Rashidi and other medieval Arab scholars, the face of the Sphinx was vandalized in 1378 A.D. by Mohammed Sa'im al-Dahr, a "fanatical sufi of the oldest and most highly respected sufi convent of Cairo." The nose and ears are mentioned specifically as having been damaged at this time. According to one account, Haarmann states, the residents in the neighborhood of the Sphinx were so upset by the destruction that they lynched him and buried him near the great monument he ruined. (Thanks to Ann Macy Roth's article in the online Ancient Near East Digest (University of Chicago, Oriental Institute) for the information on Haarmann's article).

20,000 years seems possible. Either way, Its much older than mainstream archeologists believe.
The Sphinx has signs of water Erosion.

That discredits Khufu and Khafre immediately.

Besides, Look at these faces.


I look more like the Sphinx than these guys do. And im white lol. Iv also seen aliens, Anubis is real.
Personified in a species of ET called Skinwalkers.


See the animal pelt? Where do you think Native Americans got the Skin walker pelt mythology from?
They must have been in Egypt at some point. And when you think of the Thunderbird.

Look at Bennu, The pheonix.


en.wikipedia.org...

Common depictions

Across many North American indigenous cultures, the thunderbird carries many of the same characteristics. It is described as a large bird, capable of creating storms and thundering while it flies. Clouds are pulled together by its wingbeats, the sound of thunder made by its wings clapping, sheet lightning the light flashing from its eyes when it blinks, and individual lightning bolts made by the glowing snakes that it carries around with it. In masks, it is depicted as multi-colored, with two curling horns, and, often, teeth within its beak.

Wouldn't it be a mind trip if the great Exodus was Native Americans cross the ocean? And the Israelist are actually Native Americans.

Naming

The thunderbird's name comes from the common belief that the beating of its enormous wings causes thunder and stirs the wind. The Lakota name for the thunderbird is Wakį́yą, from wakhą, meaning "sacred", and kįyą, meaning "winged". The Kwakwaka'wakw have many names for the thunderbird, and the Nuu-chah-nulth (Nootka) called it Kw-Uhnx-Wa. The Ojibwa word for a thunderbird that is closely associated with thunder is animikii, while large thunderous birds are known as binesi.

So the word Binesi is used. pretty similar to bennu if you played a game of Telephone. lol.
Really weird coincidences.

JBA2848
Is it just me or did the article even say they tried to smuggle paint scrapings out of Egypt and got caught. So if they never smuggled it out how did they test it? Seems they got caught before they ever did. They might think it is 20 thousand years old and wanted to test it. But they got caught before they could ever get any where to do that.

It's just you. Re-read the article.

Bilk22
So they repainted the "graffiti" with 20000 yr. old paint? Where would the restorers get paint older than the structure they're restoring? Kind of a silly argument, huh?

If they can prove their point, was it worth preserving a lie?

That's not what I said, but then you knew that. It is quite possible to get 'paint' older than the structure, depending on what the pigment is actually made of. Red pigment is one of the earliest colours that man learned to make, however, without knowing the methods they used or access to the results etc its difficult to give credence to their findings.

So if the results had come back and said 5000 years instead would that have been a proof ?

I still think what they did was a disgrace and wouldn't prove or disprove anything.

JBA2848
Is it just me or did the article even say they tried to smuggle paint scrapings out of Egypt and got caught. So if they never smuggled it out how did they test it? Seems they got caught before they ever did. They might think it is 20 thousand years old and wanted to test it. But they got caught before they could ever get any where to do that.

Hi JBA,

They actually claim that the sample material from the Khufu cartouche is “now in the hands of a well known institute for lab analysis in Germany."

Regards,

SC

Kudos to the two "adventurers" for having the courage to proceed. We cannot rely on an ignorant culture, which hides the truth from the world, to be forthcoming.

current93

Bilk22
So they repainted the "graffiti" with 20000 yr. old paint? Where would the restorers get paint older than the structure they're restoring? Kind of a silly argument, huh?

If they can prove their point, was it worth preserving a lie?

That's not what I said, but then you knew that. It is quite possible to get 'paint' older than the structure, depending on what the pigment is actually made of. Red pigment is one of the earliest colours that man learned to make, however, without knowing the methods they used or access to the results etc its difficult to give credence to their findings.

So if the results had come back and said 5000 years instead would that have been a proof ?

I still think what they did was a disgrace and wouldn't prove or disprove anything.

Hey at least they didn't leave their own graffiti behind If their findings prove out, which is more of a disgrace?

18,000 B.C. isn't so hard to believe, Gobelki Tepe sure opened a few eyes so we don't have to push
the dates of civilization to far. The evolution of the pyramids are well documented but the ancient Egyptians
could have been copying what was already there, the great pyramid.

The only problem I have is with the symbols on the cartouche, they certainly look
ancient Egyptian to me.


Would these style of glyphics have been used 20,000 years ago?
I'm not sure.

Bilk22
Hey at least they didn't leave their own graffiti behind

If their findings prove out, which is more of a disgrace?

Very true mate, both are wrong....sad that some leave the pyramids talking about the graffiti and its age rather than the bloomin' pyramids themselves ( I kid you not !!).

A wee star to yrself for that one.

So it all has to do with they want at least five figure donations in Euros? They say we have samples we took a long time ago. We just need money lots of money.

www.indiegogo.com...

reply to post by JBA2848


I don't think anyone has the slightest clue how old or what the great Pyramid was for. The fact that the name means "Fire in the middle" Must be a clue at least to an age that knew it was in the middle. The present civilisation didn't know it was in the middle until the earth had been mapped. Its dimensions are pretty good as far as the dimensions of the earth and true north orientation is concerned. Which makes you think, whoever built it knew a heck of a lot. Whatever it was for, the main clue must be the lack of cap, suggesting it was deactivated, it smells a bit like arc of the covenant stuff to me. At the bottom of this page is an interesting bit of practical history. www.gizapyramid.com...

AliceBleachWhite

The vandalism itself immediately discredits any legitimacy these STUDENTS might have had to begin with.

Further, they're STUDENTS.

Additionally, we not only have records, as well as a clear line of pyramid building evolution starting with Pharaoh Djoser with his architect Imhotep building the First Step Pyramid which was really just several of the then traditional Mustaba tombs stacked one upon another.

From there, we see Pharaoh Sneferu attempt to build a pyramid at Median which failed, and not to be deterred there was a second attempt that resulted in the Bent Pyramid, and finally, with success he achieved the first proper smooth sided pyramid with what's known as the Red Pyramid.

We know these things.
We have documentation and a clear line of architectural evolution.

This "Mysteries of the Pyramids" stuff claiming them to be older than they are is the domain and product of fantasists with an agenda to push their own fantasy versions of magical myth making toward whatever purpose, or simply willful denial and rejection of well studied material examined over Generations and Generations of scientists who'd have loved to have produced amazing results counter the current findings that would have made their careers, but, all in all continue to support the established paradigm.

I can predict your posts Alice lol. I wonder why do you even use these forums sometimes. You just steamroll into every thread like this regurgitating the same current paradigm BS logic that you're so convinced is correct.

Lets employ some of our own critical thinking. 'Cos you know, that's what actually makes a good scientist and logician.

You're so convinced of the current paradigm that you don't even finish your theory off because of its fatal flaw(s) subconsciously or even consciously (I hope not). The first mastabas and step pyramids in the Egyptian era start at about ~2600 BC if I remember correctly. That gives them about 150 years of time to gain the engineering knowledge required to build the great pyramid of Giza - we can work with that for now. So, for those 150 years each of these step pyramids and the bent pyramid etc, had associated (mostly) hieroglyphs or records of their construction. They are also nowhere near as accurate or impressive (in terms of orientation, joint width tolerances, general dimensions and geometry, material, architecture and so forth) as the great pyramid. Then in 2450 they take a x100 fold jump (in relation to the last pyramid) in knowledge and build the great pyramid, which would require one ~2 tonne block to be moved every 150 seconds according to your trusted Egyptologists theories!! Seriously lol, I think it is you believing the myth. These guys are on crack (pardon the informal conjecture) and clearly are just taking any historical account (thousand years later lol) because there are NO OTHER records of the great pyramids construction, unlike the linear growth pyramids apparently leading up to it.

Oh wait, there were some ancient hieroglyphs (the only ones mind you) discovered in the hidden chamber in the great pyramid by the university of Leeds and some robotics company. You can google it yourself, I've had my university essay and report referencing days. They dated them to 4500BC. You might automatically brush that aside with one of your current paradigm preserving logic sequences, so lets look at official carbon dating. Material collected from 1st and 2nd dynasty tombs was 200~ years off the apparently associated kings. Any records of attempted carbon dating of the actual pyramid only include surrounding material and I believe some from the interior. All records pushed it back at least ~400-500 years giving us ~3000bc, and other more recent results have pushed it back 900-1000 years, giving us 3500 BC - or just in line with the Sumerians. Either way, real evidence shows its older than all your little baby pyramids, which were, by the rule of scientific method, built after the great pyramid and are hence imitations. See, it can still make sense.

But let's go deeper. The great pyramid originally stood at 146.5m in height with a base of 230.4m. Diving the height by the base gives you 2pi, or half the height divided by the base gives you pi. This is to like 6 or 7 decimal points accuracy - that is mathematically an absurd coincidence. The angles of the pyramid and its dimensions were chose in such a way for this to happen, which would effectively create circular geometry with a radius node smack in the centre of the pyramid. 'Officially', pi first cropped up in Babylonian clay tablets at about 1600 BC with pi at 3.16, and the Rhind Egyptian papyrus from roughly the same time first stating pi as. 3.12. So you're established, so well trusted current story of events is telling you that the Egyptians had knowledge of pi to 6 decimal places in 4500BC - 3500BC (from actual data) or ~2500BC (based on absolutely no scientific evidence but rather an attempt to fit it into current understanding, the ONlY link is Thuban but we shall get to that) and by 1600BC they couldn't get it accurate to 2 decimal places? Does this sound like a progressive society to you from our current understanding? The best and least documentated pyramid was built first, incorporating mathematics not discovered for thousands of years later, and the following pyramids started at the bottom again. All logical and scientifical conclusions point towards the surrounding and mass amount of micro size geometrical unbeautiful pyramids are imitations of the original. Remember, I'm only going off scientific data here... ;]

Oh yeah. According to your trusted sources, the Egyptians only had copper tools (which they perfectly cut granite with and extruded passageways to extremely accurate dimensions, using a tool that would struggle extremely hard to provide a straight surface for tight joints. The average joint tolerance across the whole great pyramid is. 0.5mm - think about that - the others come nowhere near close), and their best mechanical technology was a windlass which can't explain the lifting and general logistics of stone transportation, not to mention building a ramp around the pyramid would require a volume of rigid material greater than the pyramid depending on its width. There's various examples of machine marks across granite and other quarry rocks all around the great pyramid, and the statues of Luxor demonstrate a surface finish and geometric design that is simply not achievable if the current paradigm view of the Egyptians is taken.

The great pyramid is aligned to true north by 12 seconds of an arc of a degree. This is ridiculously accurate. For them to know this they either knew how to map it using shadows or they followed the North Star (which changes on a 25000 year precession). To support the 2500Bc theory Egyptologists claim they used Thuban as their North Star, which was closest at about 2800BC. Or 28000BC, depending on which precession it was mapped to. This can be said for any of the north stars - I.e the date can be manipulated to orientate to any of the 25000 year cycle stars.

Seriously just think about it. Nothing I've said is mythical or made up, it is evidence and reasoning. Continued in my next post

reply to post by DazDaKing


Continuing from my post...

But let's put all these astonishing inconsistencies aside for a second. Lets look at the Sphinx, the great pyramids associate of ancient wonder. All radiocarbon dating tests give atleast a date of 4500BC, with recent experiments on the limestone core giving 5000BC. Weather erosion studied from various groups indicates heavy erosion requiring heavy and long sustained periods of rainful, which can last be attributed in Egypt in the 10000BC onwards range, but not past ~5000-4000BC. So all scientific evidence says the great pyramid and the sphinx (both with practical no documentation of their purpose or construction, by a civilisation that decorated every wall with their stories and beliefs) are older than the ancient Egyptians and practically any recorded civilisation. Just shortly after these dates we get the Sumerians, who depicted te gods as humanoid forms walking amongst us (not quite a primitive Imaginary sun god or something youre taught in school, look at the carvings and tablets for yourself) who had beard like features (often representated in a synthetic way or as a snake. Then followed the Egyptians whose pharaohs wore fake beards in imitation of these original gods. You'd think with the Egyptians great mathematical and engineering knowledge, they wouldn't be so incline to believe in apparently animal headed gods, but to them its been the most important thing from day one and consumes almost all of their writings - the creation of the universe, the creation of man, the flood and the story of Noah(s), the underworld and the beings from there, life and death and so forth. They were pretty sure of something to say the least.

When one looks at all the evidence, including the beliefs of the first civilisations, how they came about, the dates and sequences of ancient structures and so forth, it seems to suggest that there was a civilisation existent prior to the Sumerians, who built the sphinx and Giza, and for them to have the knowledge to do so we can assume if that is the case that they must have existed prior to that date. However, considering the great pyramid has never had an actual one of its integral components carbondated properly, it could be as old as 10/20/30,000 years or so forth. Likewise with the sphinx, considering only one test has been done on its only reliable content and that test is prone to accuracy errors that can push the date back thousands of years.

These ideas don't arise to fulfil some inner need to prove aliens or Atlantis or whatever you convince yourself is the case. Those concepts simply appear as additional dots on the radar when one looks at the whole objectively. For example, considering everything I just said in this post and my previous, combined with the unusual end of the ice age around 12000-1000BC (look up nmichenlovsky (sp?) curve that models cycle of ice ages) and the repeated flood/Noah stories and accounts of pre flood civilisations and Demi-gods (epic of Gilgamesh) makes Platos mention of Atlantis existing in 11000 BC and sinking not so absurd.

The pigeon hole goes so deep that I won't even bother going further. If what I have said thus far doesn't make you think at least twice about even just the credibility or scientific honesty of leading Egyptologists - then there is no point anyway. But the ancients knew of things we didn't. Something did happen in our past and there does seem to have been advanced non caveman like civilisation prior 4000Bc. Infact, when you consider our species has been around officially for atleast 200,000 YEARS, it is absurd to assume it took us 160,000 years until we showed art work like the lion man statue and then another 35000 years of no apparent growth until suddenly we've got the Sumerians with a distinct belief system about their origins and what existed prior to them. The official account just doesn't add up. If environmental pressure spurs physical and intellectual growth, how did we not develop for such a long time, and considering we officially take it that we existed throughout the Ice age, you would've have thought conditions like that should have inspired a civilisation spur of growth through required cooperation and knowledge to survive - but we remain virtually silent until another 40000 years - something doesn't add up with all of this - which is why ultimately I think it's incredibly naive to attempt to claim you know for 100% what happened and what is fairy tale, especially when your own method of choice is providing evidence on the contrary.

Another second, another time step forward. We'll get to the truth eventually :]

JBA2848
So it all has to do with they want at least five figure donations in Euros? They say we have samples we took a long time ago. We just need money lots of money.

www.indiegogo.com...

I think all that proves is these guys were there with the full knowledge and permission from Egyptian authorities. It doesn't seem likely they would gain access with equipment depicted in that article. So someone isn't telling the truth here.

snoopy11

Rosinitiate


Yes the ancient Egyptians called it Zep Tepi: "The first times" when the world was ruled by the gods.

Hmm,

Well the trouble I have with this is that Zep Tepi is a creation 'myth' that states the universe was created from primordial waters haven't we moved on somewhat from these ancient myths and have better, more data based theories
on how the Universe got started that dont rely on the Ogdoad or Ennead ?

Are you saying the Great Pyramid was built by Gods or something else ?

Primordial waters?!?! Hahahaha, what #ing idiots these Egyptians were with their silly theories. It was a primordial SOUP of course! They've got nothing on our 5000 years of knowledge! They say we started from the voids of nothingness, from which the universe arose and underwent a primordial state, eventually leading to the universe and life as we know it - and that our reality had an underworld dimension directly linked to ours with apparent entities?! What are these crack smoking sun worshiping fools on about! Science has clearly shown it started from a single particle within a void, that experienced an accidental force that split it in such a way that it was asymmetrical to allow growing combination but uniform so to as have fundamental rules, which created a primordial SOUP and from that came all that the universe contains and ultimately life, and parallel to our universe exists the dimensions that constitute dark matter and are linked to ours by effect - and theorized to contain entities. They couldn't have been further from the truth with that one!

Damn fools must have spent half the day trying to make fire and the other half worshipping it. We are so superior in every way, shape and form.

snoopy11

Rosinitiate


Yes the ancient Egyptians called it Zep Tepi: "The first times" when the world was ruled by the gods.

Hmm,

Well the trouble I have with this is that Zep Tepi is a creation 'myth' that states the universe was created from primordial waters haven't we moved on somewhat from these ancient myths and have better, more data based theories
on how the Universe got started that dont rely on the Ogdoad or Ennead ?

Are you saying the Great Pyramid was built by Gods or something else ?

it's a double story. nothing is ever that simple when it comes to the oldest texts. there are 2 creations. 1 is the universe being created from the abyss, which is to say, from super massive black holes. look up the science channel episode on super massive black holes, created the galaxies, planets and stars during their active phase.

the other is the re-creation from a global cataclysm, a chaotic tohu, in which the dry ground is covered with water. the water draws down to reveal the land beneath it that already exists. this is a description of re-terraforming not original creation

verse 1 is a different time from verse 2.
because the word usage was so similar, i think the translators and interpreters assumed a little more than they should there.