Khufu Cartouche in Great Pyramid 20,000 Years Old?

DazDaKing


Primordial waters?!?! Hahahaha, what #ing idiots these Egyptians were with their silly theories. It was a primordial SOUP of course! They've got nothing on our 5000 years of knowledge! They say we started from the voids of nothingness, from which the universe arose and underwent a primordial state, eventually leading to the universe and life as we know it - and that our reality had an underworld dimension directly linked to ours with apparent entities?! What are these crack smoking sun worshiping fools on about! Science has clearly shown it started from a single particle within a void, that experienced an accidental force that split it in such a way that it was asymmetrical to allow growing combination but uniform so to as have fundamental rules, which created a primordial SOUP and from that came all that the universe contains and ultimately life, and parallel to our universe exists the dimensions that constitute dark matter and are linked to ours by effect - and theorized to contain entities. They couldn't have been further from the truth with that one!

Damn fools must have spent half the day trying to make fire and the other half worshipping it. We are so superior in every way, shape and form.

edit on 30-11-2013 by DazDaKing because: (no reason given)

edit on 30-11-2013 by DazDaKing because: (no reason given)

I never said they smoked crack that was you...

I never said we started from a tin of SOUP that was you..

I never said they worshipped the sun like fools that was you...

I never said there was a universe parallel to this one containing Gods of dark matter ... that was you..

I would have said the Universe started with a big explosion and left it at that... that was me..

snoopy11
Hmm,

What research is that ?

Where is the proof of this other Lost Civilisation ?

There were Ancient Egyptians... before that there were just local tribes ....

What culture in the Upper Paleolithic could have built the Pyramids ?

After all a lot of people dont think it was possible for the Egyptians to build them so going back in time
doesn't really help....

Local tribes? That makes sense. A civilization arises out of nowhere. There was no civilization before Egypt. Nothing to see here. Move along. Who cares if these student scraped paint off artifacts. The Egyptians are murdering people who are protesting against a military coup that removed the democratically elected leader. Many of these artifacts were stolen. They were decent not to steal some. You know you are on to something when you are mocked by journalists and the truth authorities.

undo

snoopy11

Rosinitiate


Yes the ancient Egyptians called it Zep Tepi: "The first times" when the world was ruled by the gods.

Hmm,

Well the trouble I have with this is that Zep Tepi is a creation 'myth' that states the universe was created from primordial waters haven't we moved on somewhat from these ancient myths and have better, more data based theories
on how the Universe got started that dont rely on the Ogdoad or Ennead ?

Are you saying the Great Pyramid was built by Gods or something else ?

it's a double story. nothing is ever that simple when it comes to the oldest texts. there are 2 creations. 1 is the universe being created from the abyss, which is to say, from super massive black holes. look up the science channel episode on super massive black holes, created the galaxies, planets and stars during their active phase.

the other is the re-creation from a global cataclysm, a chaotic tohu, in which the dry ground is covered with water. the water draws down to reveal the land beneath it that already exists. this is a description of re-terraforming not original creation

verse 1 is a different time from verse 2.
because the word usage was so similar, i think the translators and interpreters assumed a little more than they should there.

edit on 1-12-2013 by undo because: (no reason given)

terraforming implies deliberate manipulation however nowhere in the description of events is there any indication of that
the description sounds like the water level rising and then lowering again which can and does occur through natural means (and can occur in cycles as ice melts and freezes) the idea that this implies terraformation is a pretty big leap in logic

reply to post by sirhumperdink


it's the information that follows it. those are life forms being re-created not created for the first time. for example, elohim copies elohim and makes male and female adam copies. those copies weren't men, yet. they were male and female elohim copies, called adam in genesis and called atum, in egypt. remember moses wrote the foundational text there, and he was raised with the egyptian information about this stuff. the gods of egypt, particularly the creation gods, are "self-created" -- et.al, copies of themselves. atum is self-created, that is to say, adam is self created. this spills over into the idea the flood story is actually 2 floods. one global catastrophe and one a bit more localized, like the black sea flood. moses originally told the global catastrophe and later, some priests in babylon, added the more localized flood story, as recounted by the atrahasis epic and the epic of gilgamesh.

the ancient writers tended to tell the story, then tell it again with different details . same story, same timeline, different information. a translator would look at it and assume it was one contiguous series of events, unless told otherwise. also note the flood text claims 7 clean animals in pairs, 7 birds in pairs and 2 unclean in pairs. that's only 32 animals and therefore contradicts the rest of the passages that say all the animals were taken on the ark. the big flood,the global catastrophe is seen in the opening passages of genesis 1, then told in more detail in the flood story.

I always felt that the pyramids were built by man for man to survive a coming cataclysm that would wipe mans history, memory and knowledge away (again).

The pyramids seem to have been built with knowledge of everything important that our ancestors felt should not be forgotten in its construction, not to mention what was really kept in them as we all know they were found looted. Many things about the earth can be learned from studying the pyramids. It is a ark of sorts.

Adaluncatif

snoopy11
Hmm,

What research is that ?

Where is the proof of this other Lost Civilisation ?

There were Ancient Egyptians... before that there were just local tribes ....

What culture in the Upper Paleolithic could have built the Pyramids ?

After all a lot of people dont think it was possible for the Egyptians to build them so going back in time
doesn't really help....

Local tribes? That makes sense. A civilization arises out of nowhere. There was no civilization before Egypt. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Again I am not saying that.

I am saying where is your proof that there was a culture in the Upper Paleolithic that could have built the Great Pyramid.

There were other cultures Nubians, Elamites, Sumerians etc.

And yes Egypt did rise from the banding together of local tribes most nations did, nothing surprising there.

Saying that Atanteans did it but I have no proof of Atlantis is very fortuitous reasoning dont you think ?

I am not having a go.

I am really not, as I have actually said I dont know who built the Great Pyramid, but since it is situated in Egypt there is a good chance the Egyptians had something to do with it, thats all I am saying.

reply to post by snoopy11


if you've seen this before, recall to your mind the sections about the great pyramid, specifically

It must be very cool being a German citizen than Bangladesh citizen.

Apparently, there's a grand lottery being drawn before we're even born. Some gets to be born were life is easy and potential is huge. Most just get born where the most you'll ever achieve is weave clothes, mine gold, make electronic goods for the "lucky ones" and live in slums.

snoopy11
Hmm,

What research is that ?

Where is the proof of this other Lost Civilisation ?

There were Ancient Egyptians... before that there were just local tribes ....

What culture in the Upper Paleolithic could have built the Pyramids ?

After all a lot of people dont think it was possible for the Egyptians to build them so going back in time
doesn't really help....

I think trying to find a civilization capable of building the Pyramids and then attributing it to them is the wrong way to go about it. We couldn't even build it today if we wanted to. Instead figure out how old they are, and then look at what civilizations were around, logically one of them had to build them. Egyptians have historically shown very complex stonework, the types of things we've only had the ability to reproduce with high tech gadgets over the past 20-30 years and they did it with rather low tech instruments. It's not unreasonable to say the Ancient Egyptians built them based on previous achievements, if the testing shows however that the Pyramids are 20,000 years old though then the first conclusion you come to is that the Ancient Egyptians go further back in time than we know.

SasquatchHunter
reply to post by HumAnnunaki

 

Dont you understand it is insulting the people and history of Egyptians when you claim they didn't build what they did build. Don't you understand it is insulting everyone who has built exceedingly better structures since the pyramids.

You guys are insulting every architect engineer and persons with common sense that is alive when you say we can't build structures like the pyramid of Giza, because were not as advanced as its builders.

Actually every engineer that has some knowledge of the pyramids will tell you we can't do it today. We can plainly see how the thing was built and recently we even likely learned the method. It's beyond the ability of all our high tech tools though. We can't make a building foundation as perfect as that of the Pyramids, we can't lift the stones, we can't cut and fashion the stones, and we can't make a building earthquake proof. Our greatest engineering marvels today can only remain standing for centuries not several millenia. The things we do design to last for millenia are much more humble, something on the scale of the Pyramid is just beyond what we're capable of. The most frustrating part about that, is that the Pyramid is just a big pile of stones. It wasn't made with high tech gadgets and the Egyptians understanding of math was rather primative. Despite that we can't replicate what they did. We're more advanced in many other ways, but the Great Pyramid is called the most perfect building in the world for a reason.

Antigod
I'm curious, where do people get the idea that it couldn't be build with modern tech? I have someone who keeps telling me you can't get a credit card between the stones, but there are spots in the GP you can stick your head in between them. The Egyptians also kept accountant records of what it cost to pay the pyramid builders. There is no mystery about the pyramid's construction

It's true of the stones that interlock, there's some holes in the building where things have fallen apart over time but in general the stones are set together very tightly and that's after several millenia worth of earthquakes. This isn't something unique to the Ancient Egyptians though, there's stonework like this all over the world such as from the Mayans. It's relatively common.

SasquatchHunter
reply to post by Taggart

 

Your missing the point completely or purposely. Of course there are brilliant people born in different eras. The point I was making is that people are trying to make the case the builders of these pyramids weren't who we know they were by rather some distant more advanced civilization with wild claims as them being more advanced than our civilization today or possible aliens or something. Yes Davinci has left his mark on history thats why I used him as an example, and the reason is because he understand art concepts that ancient egyptians had no knowledge of. Basic concepts of composition, light and shadow, use of color, perspective, proportional figures. I think if you browse the art on the internet even art being created by students you will see truckloads being churned out daily that would have made Leonardos jaw drop.
The point being is that im using basic knowledge of one subject to dispel myths that some ancient civilation had advanced knowledge superior to what knowledge they actually had.

It sounds like you don't understand artistic genius. DaVinci was a better painter than probably anyone alive today, we have more knowledge of artistic styles now but mixing multiple techniques into a painting is something few can do, and even fewer can do well. It's not like history or math where each day builds upon the previous days knowledge. Sure the average quality level is higher but many greats of the past are still better than the greats of today.

reply to post by AliceBleachWhite

I've noticed you always have a negative reply to post's,seems like your using media based facts,obviously no educational background in the subject,fact remains that most discovery's have been done by students,they have no worries about being cut off for government grants for not following guidlines,the poster has done some very indepth study's and one would be ignorant to dismiss his findings,I'm old but I have learned to think out of the box,excellent post as always Scott,I pretty much disbelieve anything that has been written where our govt is involved

Aazadan
Our greatest engineering marvels today can only remain standing for centuries not several millenia. The things we do design to last for millenia are much more humble, something on the scale of the Pyramid is just beyond what we're capable of.

im not trying to dismiss the points youve made but i will point out that the hoover dam is expected to survive millenia with some people estimating it may last over 10,000 years
part of the reason that we arent so infatuated with building such long lasting monuments any longer is that theres really no logical reason for us to do so (and i suspect as we continue to advance things will be built for even shorter term use and things will become more modular to allow for quicker adaptation so you dont have the issues of shutting down entire cities when the time comes to overhaul the infrastructure)

Hi Shadow Herder,

Shadow Herder
I always felt that the pyramids were built by man for man to survive a coming cataclysm that would wipe mans history, memory and knowledge away (again)... Many things about the earth can be learned from studying the pyramids. It is a ark of sorts.

In Medieval art, Noah’s Ark is typically portrayed as some kind of massive wooden boat, sometimes with multiple decks but, curiously, this is not how the Ark was always perceived or portrayed in art (see below):



Lorenzo Ghiberti ‘Noah and the Flood’ from ‘The Gates of Paradise” in Florence.


Notice the various animals exiting from the pyramid. (Symbolic of course).

The Ark itself in this panel has a unique shape, a pyramid. This may refer directly to Origen‘s interpretation of the Ark…* The obvious reliance on Origen for the representation of the Ark is another point Krautheimer used to support Traversari, a scholar of Origen. Clarke asserts that the pyramidal Ark need not rely on Origen, but that the biblical account would lead toward such a representation. In fact, Don Cameron Allen stated that all early writers thought of the Ark as a pyramid.

(*Origen, an Egyptian Father of the Church envisioned the Ark as a truncated pyramid with three decks… all of the earlier writers thought of it [the Ark] as pyramidal in shape… Uccello‘s Ark is also a pyramid). - Gwynne Ann Dilbeck, Opening the Gates of Paradise: function and the iconographical program of Ghiberti's bronze door

So yes, it does seem to me that the Egyptian pyramids were the original Ark, built as 'recovery vaults' to ensure the kingdom could be reborn after a devastating flood that their astronomer-priests had predicted would come having observed that the heavens had changed from their normal course.

Regards,

SC

Scott Creighton

Painterz
You can't do C14 dating on a scraping of pigment from a wall.

Ochre paint typically uses gum and honey as a binding agent. Both these materials are carbon based and can be tested through radiocarbon dating.

So unless they state their methology, what test they used to obtain this date, and demonstrate repeatability, I'm inclined to not believe it.

I don't see anywhere they have yet mentioned the dating technique used. They may have used thermo-luminesence technique to date the material.

Regards,

SC

edit on 30/11/2013 by Scott Creighton because: (no reason given)

The context has been exposed to the air, soot, torches, lanterns, pollution, endless contamination. You just can't do C14 testing with any sort of accuracy on stuff you scrape off a wall. I'm an archaeologist, I've done C14 testing.

As lovely and over complicated as many of the arguments in favor of some fantasy Pre-Dynastic Civilization have been, most of such arguments falling nicely under the heading of Argument from Incredulity, and other elementary errors in reason, please ask yourself this:

Can we date Egyptian Hieroglyphs on form and style alone?

Absolutely.

Just as we can track the development and evolution of one of the OLDEST forms of writing; Cuneiform, which dates back some 6000 years, we can do the same in tracing the Evolution of Egyptian Hieroglyphs.

Khufu's Cartouche?

Is the language and style of script it's written in 20,000 years old?
NO.

As far as the Evolution of Egyptian Hieroglyphs goes, the style and script are well within accepted paradigm around 4500 years ago where proto-Hieroglyphic writing can be traced back and followed some 5200 years in easily dated pottery, and other artifacts.

20,000 years?
NO.
I challenge anyone to produce ANY form of verifiable legitimate working complex writing system that's even just 10,000 years old.

How does 20,000 year old paint get daubed on a writing system that didn't even exist in the form and style represented until some 4500 years ago?

Rosinitiate

snoopy11
Hmm,


There were Ancient Egyptians... before that there were just local tribes ....

Yes the ancient Egyptians called it Zep Tepi: "The first times" when the world was ruled by the gods.

I think the really important question here is WHY was ancient Egypt, or indeed the entire planet, ruled by 'the gods'?

Think about that...why were the gods ruling, and exactly how did they obtain the authority, the mandate in order to rule?

If this 20kyo figure is correct, and it is incidentally something i have spoken about here and elsewhere quite a few times before now (i.e. the smaller, inaccurate pyramids are thought of as being earlier, when in fact i believe they could just as well be later, crude and mostly failed attempts to replicate the grandure of the Giza pyramids), it would give a lot of credence to the theory Humanity has been a high technology civilisation, perhaps a untied global one and even perhaps a space fareing one that suffered some catastrophic fall, perhaps from natural events, or from war - either with outsiders from space, or with ourselves, which ultimately caused our fall.

The 'Gods' may have been ETI observers, peacekeepers, arbiters or even our enemy guards.

In just a few short years we have discovered that there are potentially BILLIONS of habbitable worlds in our small galaxy alone, all diverse ages and so on the planets that developed life, intelligent life will have civilisations of different technological levels.

Some akin to neolithic, some thousands even millions of years ahead of our current level will be there, somewhere.

Remember, their technology will be different to ours, so literally anything technologically is possible...even interstellar or dimensional travel.

Painterz

Scott Creighton

Painterz
You can't do C14 dating on a scraping of pigment from a wall.

Ochre paint typically uses gum and honey as a binding agent. Both these materials are carbon based and can be tested through radiocarbon dating.

So unless they state their methology, what test they used to obtain this date, and demonstrate repeatability, I'm inclined to not believe it.

I don't see anywhere they have yet mentioned the dating technique used. They may have used thermo-luminesence technique to date the material.

Regards,

SC

edit on 30/11/2013 by Scott Creighton because: (no reason given)

The context has been exposed to the air, soot, torches, lanterns, pollution, endless contamination. You just can't do C14 testing with any sort of accuracy on stuff you scrape off a wall. I'm an archaeologist, I've done C14 testing.

Indeed. And if you are presented with a date from the sample that is ca.20,000 years old, it's hardly likely to have come from anything more recent. This chamber has only been accessible from 1837 CE.

Regards,

SC

reply to post by Scott Creighton


I've been waiting years for somebody to test that. I'm surprised it wasn't done before. I'm sorry but I don't simply take main stream Egyptology at their word about EVERYTHING. I just wish it was done with much more in depth and supported research and control.

My two pennies.
For what it's worth

AliceBleachWhite

As far as the Evolution of Egyptian Hieroglyphs goes, the style and script are well within accepted paradigm around 4500 years ago where proto-Hieroglyphic writing can be traced back and followed some 5200 years in easily dated pottery, and other artifacts.

20,000 years?
NO.

SC: So, C14 radiocarbon dating is to be binned then?

ABW: I challenge anyone to produce ANY form of verifiable legitimate working complex writing system that's even just 10,000 years old.

SC: Are you suggesting that the builders of the remarkably complex 12,000 year old 'temple' at Gobekli Tepi could not have had a "working complex writing system"?

ABW: How does 20,000 year old paint get daubed on a writing system that didn't even exist in the form and style represented until some 4500 years ago?

SC: Perhaps because the structure (and the writing found therein) is indeed much older that Egyptologists think. Egyptologists insist that the First Intermediate Period (FIP) after the collapse of the Old Kingdom lasted only for about 200 years in which time nothing was built in Egypt and we know very little of what occurred in Egypt during this period. It was a 'dark age'.

The work of the Egyptian priest and scholar, Manetho, is used pretty much to lay down the various Egyptian 'dynasties'. Within the first four dynasties there are no less than 123 missing mortal kings' names. That's a lot of missing history--and that is just the kings' names we know are missing. There may be many more missing kings from the lists that have come down to us. This would seem likely given that the AEs themselves tell us that their history is tens of thousands of years older than Egyptologists would have us believe.

Now, if there are all these missing mortal kings before the FIP, that can amount to thousands of years thereby pushing the pyramids and their builders further back in time. Essentially what we have is a rope (timeline) where a big chunk in the middle has been cut out and cast aside. What Egyptology has effectively done is to simply rejoin the two ends of the rope to get a much smaller continuous rope and overlooks the big chunk of rope lying at its feet. They have pulled the period of the Great pyramids forwards in time to connect with one end of their much shortened FIP and have underestimated the true duration of the FIP. The structures and the 'language' of the people who built them is simply much older than is being presented.

SC

ignorant_ape
reply to post by xxdaniel21

 

how many people " just taking a sample for their own purposes " until there is nothing left of the original ?

Yeah since we're all experts in carbon dating?

2nd.

AliceBleachWhite
I challenge anyone to produce ANY form of verifiable legitimate working complex writing system that's even just 10,000 years old.

Just curious miss Alice -

What is your take on the "Rongorongo Tablets" of Easter Island..?

Definitely an ancient unreadable writing system.. a system lost
to the epic sands of time; a writing system that seems to be much
older than history equates it to!