Paging, Piers Morgan: Gun Violence Explodes In England

spacedog1973
Labour are NOT the equivalent to the Democrats. They are more like the Conservative party here, but not as socialistic in their outlook ironically.

This issue has been argued to death. Firearms are counted differently cross the globe. What constitutes firearms in the UK and US differ substantially so its pointless comparing until you do a little homework first.

UK VS US Definitions of firearms and violent crime

The information used came from British sources. The origional source was added to the op. So the numbers in question are based on British reporting methods - not US.

scotsdavy1
We don't need guns here to have control. Yes we have armed response police in case some nutter has a gun and is needed to be arrested or whatever.
We don't have police shooting motorists for nothing, or killing anything that moves like your police do.
And why do you always call people in the UK, English? Complete insult to the rest of us here.
You have about as much chance go getting struck by lightning here before you see anyone with a gun.
Unless, you go to our airports and you will find plenty of our police openly carrying them.

Why? Why would I ignore the fact that the uk is a diverse multi cultural environment, that includes Scotland and Ireland let alone England?

Why would I lump an entire culture into one ignorant box?

I don't know maybe I was trying to show that doing the same for America by classifying all gun owners as cowards who fear is the same level of lazy ignorant arrogance.

That or maybe I am just some fat lazy American who is ignorant of world history and cultures outside of my own...


You know since we are making ignorant blanket statements and all.

Maxatoria
Offences involving the use of firearms peaked later than overall violent crime with 24,094 offences being recorded by the police in 2003/04. Since then the number of such offences has fallen by 60% to 9,555 recorded offences in 2011/12. The current 16% fall between 2010/11 and 2011/12 is the eighth consecutive annual decrease in firearm offences.

UK Office for National Statistics

so by the looks of it we're doing ok

Thnks.. your link was added to the op.

Xcathdra

PhoenixOD
Also as the article is almost 2 years old its not current and shouldn't be in the current event forum.

Actually it is current - see op.

The source article in the mail online that you linked to is from 2009!

source article

scotsdavy1
We don't need guns here to have control. Yes we have armed response police in case some nutter has a gun and is needed to be arrested or whatever.
We don't have police shooting motorists for nothing, or killing anything that moves like your police do.
And why do you always call people in the UK, English? Complete insult to the rest of us here.
You have about as much chance go getting struck by lightning here before you see anyone with a gun.
Unless, you go to our airports and you will find plenty of our police openly carrying them.

If you took the time to read my posts you would have seen I appologized for the terms I used.

As for the remainder of your post there have been incidents over there when Police have shot and killed unarmed / law abiding citizens.

Trying to claim the moral high ground when there is none is not a defense or answer to the issue.

If gun control works, then why are the guns on the streets over there? If the large bulk of British citizens abide by the law, then would they not be responsible when it comes to owning and using a firearm?

Doesnt the law punish law abiding citizens by restricting their ability to protect themselves from criminals?

reply to post by Xcathdra


Gun control is working nicely here

ill quote maxatoria's post

Offences involving the use of firearms peaked later than overall violent crime with 24,094 offences being recorded by the police in 2003/04. Since then the number of such offences has fallen by 60% to 9,555 recorded offences in 2011/12. The current 16% fall between 2010/11 and 2011/12 is the eighth consecutive annual decrease in firearm offences.

reply to post by benrl


Who wound you up? I was answering the OP, not you.

Gun control works here, always has, always will. Criminals can get guns but it's harder for them now and it can't be stopped, but expect a very long sentence in one of our humane jails if found with one or try or use one.
You Americans love to have an argument about guns, the thread/threads on it are really boring these days...

reply to post by PhoenixOD


Doing searches reveal an epidemic of knife violence in the uk?

Are you guys working on banning kitchen knives as well?

Just curious.

PhoenixOD

Xcathdra

PhoenixOD
Also as the article is almost 2 years old its not current and shouldn't be in the current event forum.

Actually it is current - see op.

The source article in the mail online that you linked to is from 2009!

source article

Which doesnt change the numbers used or the questions asked. Its a valid topic of conversation / debate.

benrl
reply to post by PhoenixOD

 

Doing searches reveal an epidemic of knife violence in the uk?

Are you guys working on banning kitchen knives as well?

Just curious.

This was another point I wanted to ask about.

In the states a person armed with a knife creates the possibility of a deadly force encounter, allowing an officer to engage using deadly force.

Is it the same over there?

reply to post by Xcathdra

As for the remainder of your post there have been incidents over there when Police have shot and killed unarmed / law abiding citizens.

Please show me some links to these, what about the last 10?

reply to post by Xcathdra


Not deadly force required to take him down, they can use a tazer or mace ....

Xcathdra

PhoenixOD

Xcathdra

PhoenixOD
Also as the article is almost 2 years old its not current and shouldn't be in the current event forum.

Actually it is current - see op.

The source article in the mail online that you linked to is from 2009!

source article

Which doesnt change the numbers used or the questions asked. Its a valid topic of conversation / debate.

Well seeing as you were the one claiming it was a current issue and originally posted it in the current events forum (i see its now been moved) then you are currently trying to debate an issue that is no longer valid as the figures have changed since 2009 and gun offenses (of which the majority are possession and not shooting) are on the decline.

Gangs killing other gangs with their guns, i dont really have a problem with. If it wasnt a gun it would be a knife.

Point is that guns arnt used for crimes or for self defense getting innocent people killed in the cross fire.

reply to post by Xcathdra


I live in Wales,and all farmer/country types have a shotgun or 2 and maybe a rifle as well.
In fact most folks can get a licence for such a gun if you are sane and don't have a criminal record.
You need to get character references from a Doctor/Lawyer or likewise then the police say if you are allowed your licence.
The police also visit your home,and make sure you have a secure box for your guns.
I think you also have to lock the ammo away seperately from the gun,and if its a rifle you must remove the bolt and stash that seperatley.
I don't own any firearms myself,but I know a few local clay pidgeon(skeet?) shooters who told me about the licences.
Its not uncommon to see farmer types in a field with shotguns here but gun crime in Wales is practically non existent,which is good.
More guns in Wales than London,just not in the hands of young gangsta types-hence less gun crime.
Thats my theory anyhow.

reply to post by benrl


What that does show is that people will use anything to hand when they lose their temper..a good reason not let everyone have guns id say.

But all that's off topic , you should start another thread on that issue as this one was about 4 year old gun figures.

You can get guns in this country. Most of the people in my village have guns. Grouse and pheasant shooting are big business here. I just don't want one or the responsibility of looking after one to be honest.

Unless your a game bird or a gangster, the chances of you being shot are extremely rare in the UK. So why the need if there is no threat to your person.

This is a good use for guns here

scotsdavy1
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

As for the remainder of your post there have been incidents over there when Police have shot and killed unarmed / law abiding citizens.

Please show me some links to these, what about the last 10?

Jean Charles de Menezes - Shot and killed by London Police. He was misidentified as a terrorist - 2005

Wikipedia - Sources are at bottom of page for entries quoted

Fatal incidents[edit]Note: the following does not include killings by police in Northern Ireland.

In June 1980, hostage Gail Kinchin and her unborn baby were killed in crossfire between West Midlands officers and her boyfriend.

On 24 August 1985 John Shorthouse aged 5 was shot dead in a police raid on his home in Birmingham. The incident produced hostility towards the police over two days after John's death when a policewoman was dragged from her patrol car and beaten by youths. Following the Shorthouse case, West Midlands police abandoned its practice of training rank-and-file officers for firearms duties and formed a specialist squad.[29]

On 15 January 1998 James Ashley, 39, was shot and killed by Sussex Police while naked and unarmed during a drugs raid at his flat. The officer who fired the shots was cleared of any wrongdoing after a trial at the Old Bailey.[30]

In June 1999 Derek Bateman, 47, of Surrey was shot by a single bullet through the heart after his girlfriend went to a neighbour's house and telephoned the police, telling them he was armed and had been threatening to shoot her. It was later determined that the weapon he had brandished at the police was an air pistol.[31]

On 22 September 1999 Harry Stanley, a painter and decorator, born in Bellshill near Glasgow, was walking home when he was shot dead by two Metropolitan Police officers following an erroneous report that he was carrying a sawn-off shotgun in a plastic bag. The officers challenged Mr Stanley from behind. As he turned to face them they shot him dead at a distance of 5 metres. It later emerged that the plastic bag actually contained a broken table leg that Stanley's brother had just fixed for him. Following numerous enquiries (in November 2004 a jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing) both officers were exonerated after 6 years of court cases and inquiries. It was found that neither officer was liable for criminal charges nor would face any disciplinary sanctions. However, the report did make notable recommendations to the police on the post-incident procedure to be followed after a shooting and about challenging members of the public from behind.[32]

On 12 July 2001 Mr Andrew Kernan, 37, a gardener from Wavertree in Liverpool was shot dead in the street by the second of two shots fired by officers of the Merseyside Police Force. The officers had been called to the scene by the victim's mother, Marie Kernan, who had also requested a psychiatric medical team attend her home because her schizophrenic son, Andrew Kernan, was being aggressive. At least four police officers from the Merseyside force went to Mrs Kernan's flat but Andrew Kernan ran into the street, dressed in his pyjamas, wielding a Katana. Mr Kernan slashed off the wing mirror of one of the police cars. After negotiating with him for 25 minutes and using CS gas, officers fired two shots. The second bullet hit Mr Kernan in the chest and he died on the way to hospital. In the case of Andrew Kernan, the Chief Constable of Merseyside Police Norman Bettison took the unusual step of sending a hand-written letter to Marie Kernan with his apologies. The then Home Secretary David Blunkett ordered a review of how armed police were used, and the dead man's mother, Marie Kernan, 59, commented at the time: "You don't kill somebody with a mental illness. I demand justice for Andrew and won't rest until I get an answer." However, a verdict of lawful killing was returned by the jury at Liverpool District Coroner's Court on 9 December 2004, and the Coroner, Andre Rebello, praised the actions of the officers at the scene. The IPCA Commissioner for the North West, Mike Franklin, stated that “the officers involved in this case were presented with a rapidly evolving scenario... Firearms officers at the scene acted bravely and the investigation has found no evidence that their actions fell below that required or expected of them." [33]

On 22 July 2005, Jean Charles de Menezes, a Brazilian national living in London, was shot dead by unnamed Metropolitan Police officers on board an Underground train at Stockwell tube station, in the belief he was a suicide bomber. He was shot in the back of the head 7 times. Initially, police claimed incorrectly that he was wearing bulky clothing and that he had vaulted the ticket barriers running from police when challenged, but did not modify their statement until the correct information was leaked to the press. They later issued an apology, saying that they had mistaken him for a suspect in the previous day's failed bombings and acknowledging that de Menezes in fact had no explosives and was unconnected with the attempted bombings. Following an investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), the Crown Prosecution Service announced on 17 July 2006, that no charges would be brought against any individual officers in relation to the death of Jean Charles. Sir Ian Blair, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police when the shooting occurred will, however, face charges under Health and Safety legislation from his professional—rather than personal—capacity. The family of Jean Charles has called on the government to open a public inquiry into the shooting.[34]

In June 2007 Anne Sanderson was shot dead by an armed officer in Sevenoaks, Kent after being seen with what was later identified as a BB gun, which she refused to relinquish when challenged by police. It was the first fatal shooting of a woman by UK Police in 27 years (and first time ever that the shooting was deliberate).[35]

A month previously police officers had found notes in Sanderson's car which had suicidal connotations, but no action was taken. A subsequent IPCC investigation noted this, as well as other procedural issues in the investigation, but stated that they "did not have a negative impact on the incident's outcome". In addition, the report said that officers involved "performed their duties conscientiously and diligently" and that an inquest jury returned a verdict of lawful killing.[36]


On August 4, 2011, Mark Duggan was shot dead by the MPS, sparking massive riots across London. Four officers are being investigated in the incident, although it was speculated "in leaks from official sources to The Times newspaper... that the firearms officer [would] be cleared of any wrongdoing on the basis that he had "an honest-held belief that he was in imminent danger of him or his colleagues being shot".[37]

PhoenixOD
reply to post by benrl

 

What that does show is that people will use anything to hand when they lose their temper..a good reason not let everyone have guns id say.

But all that's off topic , you should start another thread on that issue as this one was about 4 year old gun figures.

edit on 20-11-2013 by PhoenixOD because: (no reason given)

So we are going to just ignore the numbers then?

Is there any reason people from the UK dont want to engage in debate about their gun control laws?

Some of the responses are based on US information. At no time was the US invoked in this thread. My intent was to engage in conversation / debate on British gun control laws and their effectiveness in stopping gun violence.

If people wish to dicuss US gun control / crime issues, there are a lot to choose from.

This is about British gun control laws.