Paging, Piers Morgan: Gun Violence Explodes In England

reply to post by Xcathdra


For the general populace the gun laws are effective, it is the gang bangers who shoot each other not the general public.
We can own a gun If we like but most do not want one nor need one.
I have never felt threatened enough to take out a gun or any other weapon when in a ruck and for a guy who ran an east end boozer for 4 years plus one in Manchester for two..well I kinda know that we just do not have them in our minds.
We fight like men and use our fists lol.
I don't see them as failing at all, If a innocent bystander gets killed in a shooting it is top news over here and not common.

Xcathdra
reply to post by PhoenixOD

 

As for your last comment I could care less what you think about US gun laws or our opinions on them. If you noticed I am asking about the gun laws there and if they are effective, which they are not.

Effective in what way?

If you think you are going to totally eradicate gun crime then you need to think again. Our gun laws are designed to make gun violence a rare occurance, and it does a very good job of it. Most people in this country will never witness gun crime or even see a gun, and we intend to keep it that way.

Gun crime in our country is mainly linked to gangs, which is a problem but is managable for the police because they don't have to also worry about your average joe picking up his mums gun and going on a random shooting spree.

Throwing' this out there to get jumped on...

The UK and the US are vastly different. Different history, different rule of law, different demographics, different public opinion, etc.

To blankly compare gun violence statistics between the two without controls for the rest does not mean much. There is a lot more to it. Heck, college professors make a living of analyzing this stuff with no concrete answers forthcoming.

It's low hanging fruit to claim Americans are nut-job cowboys who want to shoot everything or members of the UK are too submissive to governmental control. Meaningless.

If more gun control is that important to you, move to the UK. If you want less gun control, move to the US. Neither is better or worse. If you claim one is better or worse, you need to accept there may be no empirical evidence to support it. Just your opinion.

With regards to the OP, I think gun violence dovetails with other socioeconmic trends worldwide. The guns themselves play only a minor part in cultural climate changes. IMHO, if you took all the guns away from Americans today, Americans would be very resourcful in finding new ways to kill each other. There is a lot more simmering than the tool of expression. Still, I ain't giving mine up.

reply to post by scotsdavy1

scotsdavy1
This article was for December 2012 nearly 2 years ago!

So, December 2012 was nearly two years ago aye?

Either you're a time traveler, or you're using that new math they're teaching - where you get credit for trying.

December 2012 was 11 months ago.

reply to post by stutteringp0et


I was looking up something else at the time I was answering so never noticed. Neither did anyone else!

Xcathdra
The question - To those in Britain:
* - Does gun control work?
* - Is it common practice to rely on the government for protection from criminals (gang members / armed criminals)?
* - Do the numbers in the article sway your thoughts on your gun control laws?
* - If gun crimes continue to rise, would you be ok with relaxing gun control laws?
* - Would you guys please take Piers Morgan back (

).

1. Don't know.
2. That is the usual practice in most modern societies, yes.
3. No
4. Relaxing in what sense? I don't actually think that the knee-jerk ban on handguns made any difference and feel sorry for those who engaged in pistol shooting (I knew soe at the time) who were affected by it - but for most people it made no difference and a relaxation would only mean that whereas now we know anyone with a handgun is a criminal, a change would make it harder to be sure ... Obviously many of us have guns since they are not illegal and even children can have a gun licence. But most of us have no need for a gun. I suppose if you gave them away free in a newspaper some of us might take them, but, really, unless we want to shoot an animal or another person, why have one? There's just no need for most people in Britain to have a gun.
5. No. Absolutely no. Never. Not even if you offer us $1,000,000 each.

Ive known some dodgy characters in my time. I grew up with some i knew some i heard legend of some.

I can tell you this, not a single one was ever to have been rumored to use or have access to a firearm - and we are talking about some dumb guys who love to brag - guns does not come up ever.

The only people i could imagine having a firearm in the UK now would be people that had obtained one before the laws changed 20 years ago, or have obtained one through some sort of illegal import supply chain probably first established for drugs or other illegal activity's - never guns as the goal.

In all honesty im more scared of a single guy with a knife or just a group of angry violent people than i am of ever being confronted with a gun. I dont even know if i would react 'correctly' if i was presented with a situation involving a gun, they are so rare its more likely to be a fake or imitation.

As of 2011, there are 32,000 gun deaths in the U.S. per year. 60% of them are suicides. The vast majority of the rest are gang related activities. Of the 32,000 deaths, only 2,000 fall outside the categories of suicide and gangs. The notion that gun violence is occurring all over the country is a complete farce. And since 1993 gun deaths in the U.S. have dropped by 49%, and are still falling rapidly. I'm not sure how people fall for their propaganda, ignorance I guess.

Apparently, firearms incidents in Scotland (which has the same firearms laws as the rest of the UK) has fallen to a record low ....

With one death in the past year .....

Shooting a window with a BB gun along with firing a starting pistol in the street is classed as a gun crime in the UK so you have to make sure the statistics your using are factually comparable

reply to post by Xcathdra


So just like in America most of the gun violence stems from gangs/organized crime?

You don't say? Funny enough, as we all know, most firearms are banned in the UK so if America continues to follow suit then all that's really accomplished is that guns are kept out of the hands of law abiding citizens. The problem is criminals who, as we all know, don't follow the law, which is why they're criminals.

So Alex Jones is right and Piers is wrong.

Swills
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

So just like in America most of the gun violence stems from gangs/organized crime?

You don't say? Funny enough, as we all know, most firearms are banned in the UK so if America continues to follow suit then all that's really accomplished is that guns are kept out of the hands of law abiding citizens. The problem is criminals who, as we all know, don't follow the law, which is why they're criminals.

Even though this may be true a very very small percent of criminals and gangs in the UK have gun's. This percentage would go through the roof if guns were more available to the general public. Not only that the risk of non career criminals being involved in shooting incidents would rise.

I totally get that Americans don't want to give up their guns, they are empowering and give a false illusion of safety. I wouldn't want to live in a country where everyone owned a gun but if i did id want one as well.

I can understand why Americans don't want Piers telling them more guns = more gun crime. No one would want to give up something they think makes them tougher / safer.

reply to post by PhoenixOD


As already pointed out on the first page by another poster, American's don't own guns out of fear and for the illusion of safety, for the illusion of safety we leave that responsibility to our Gov't & Federal alphabet agencies, just like in the UK, not guns. That said, gun owners definitely feel better when they know they have a gun in the house, especially as our economy and irresponsible gov't gets worse as time goes on.

The real point of my post you quoted is that you can ban guns all you want but criminals will never abide to such laws so unless the world plans on stopping the manufactor of guns and destroys every last gun on the planet, there will always be gun crime, to which the UK is demonstrating nicely.

Guns + American culture go together like peanut butter and jelly, something the UK is not familiar with.

reply to post by Swills

As already pointed out on the first page by another poster, American's don't own guns out of fear and for the illusion of safety, for the illusion of safety we leave that responsibility to our Gov't & Federal alphabet agencies, just like in the UK, not guns.

I don't think any one person can speak for all Americans as to why they own guns. Especially as in the past as i have seen countless posts by Americans claiming that they need guns to protect themselves from criminals AND the government.

The real point of my post you quoted is that you can ban guns all you want but criminals will never abide to such laws so unless the world plans on stopping the manufacturer of guns and destroys every last gun on the planet, there will always be gun crime, to which the UK is demonstrating nicely.

But like i said its is only a very very small percentage of career criminals in the UK that have guns. Allowing people to have guns in the uk would increase that percentage which the majority of people here just dont want to happen.

Anyone i think you meant British. British includes Scots, Welsh and Irish, not just The English.

British most definately does NOT mean Irish!!!

Tut tut.

reply to post by PhoenixOD


Are you from the UK? If so I can understand why you can't grasp that American culture includes guns but understand I'm, nor is the mentioned poster, speaking for all of America. But you are right about something, Americans are absolutely buying more guns and ammo as our Gov't continues to tighten it's grip but our Gov't is also buying record amounts of guns and ammo at the same time. So they must be onto something, no?

In spirit of this thread and Piers Morgan I'll post an article from Alex Jone's Inforwars.

Statistics Prove: More Guns, Less Crime

Paul Joseph Watson
Infowars.com
January 7, 2013

Despite the onslaught of media propaganda in support of the Obama administration’s anti-second amendment agenda in the aftermath of the Sandy Hook school shooting, the statistics clearly illustrate that gun control does not reduce violent crime and in fact has the opposite effect.

Source: FBI Uniform Crime Reports.
As the graph above highlights, according to the latest figures obtained by the FBI, violent crime offenses in the United States have been falling since 2007. The five year trend clearly shows that, despite there being an ongoing national debate about gun violence in America, violent crime itself is actually becoming less of a problem.

The graph below from the Department of Justice also highlights the fact that over the last 40 years, the amount of guns in America per 1000 people has increased, whereas serious violent crimes have decreased.

In addition, despite the media drumbeat that murders involving guns represent the number one safety threat to American citizens, the reality is completely the opposite.

Amongst the “top ten killers” in the United States, homicide by firearms is at the bottom of the list, according to figures from the CDC and the FBI. Almost 20 times more people die in the United States from medical errors than they do from firearm homicides, but there is no outcry to slap draconian regulations on the medical industry.

See link for more...

From 2006 to 2011 gun crime has been on the decline here in America. Sadly, mass shootings have been on the rise but still those numbers are small, while extremely evil and tragic. There have been cases where a shooter was shot and killed by a conceal carrying citizen effectively stopping another mass shooting, but like mass shootings, those stories are also a minority.

FBI Link 1

FBI Link 2

FBI Expanded Homicide Data

To be honest. We`ve never really had a problem with gun crimes in the UK.
Don`t get me wrong. People get shot but it`s very rare.

I live in a rough area in the North and you hardly hear of anyone getting shot.....never mind dying from a shooting.
So really, I don`t understand it when Morgan goes on about how successful our gun laws have been.

I don`t think anything would work in the states because guns have been a way of living.
You couldn`t take the guns off everyone cos the baddies would still have theirs.....

This is a topic that has been done to death here on ATS, and very rarely is there a consensus of opinion and most threads degenerate quite quickly, pleased to see that this has remained quite civil.

The thing is, comparing UK gun control laws and their efficiency with US gun control laws is a classic case of apples and pears; there simply is no valid comparison.

Both societies share much in common but there are also some fundamental differences, and the respective attitudes to gun control is one of those differences.

Gun ownership is engrained in the US psyche and prohibiting something that is as prevalent would be about as successful as The Volstead Act was back in 1920 and probably a damn sight more damaging.
It's your country, keep your guns or restrict them, it's entirely up to you and no business of anyone else's.

UK gun control laws are quite restrictive, especially when viewed from an 'American' viewpoint - but UK gun control laws are pretty much supported by everyone here - we don't want them to be relaxed.
Gun ownership has never been as engrained in our culture.
I know this may surprise many Americans but even the vast majority of criminals wouldn't dream of owning or possessing one.
Sure there are the occassional incidents, they tend to make national headlines because of their rarity, but they aren't an everyday occurrence. As someone said in an earlier post most people will go their entire lives without seeing or hearing a gun.

What's right for the US isn't necessarily right for the UK, and vice versa.

I would just like to point out something.


It is very hard to compare statistics between US and UK, due to the fact that the UK is absolutely tiny compared to the US.


Hence a vastly bigger population.


I just saw in this thread a number of US gun killings, something like 11400 or something. That is my whole local borough killed. However, in relation to the size of the US with the UK, that's probably 1 or 2 people a year. Does anybody get what I mean?

reply to post by brace22


You could always talk in percentages of the population. Thats how statistics work.