Police attack nurse because she called her supervisor.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


You miss my point, would YOU have allowed two patients to go outside, unsupervised on a Fresh Air Break?

I doubt you would, but let's hear it.

pavil
reply to post by roadgravel

 

From what I read of the police report, she was shot with a Tazer, then asked
what hit her butt, was told that it was a Tazer, ordered to get up, which she did, WITHOUT the Tazer being activated.

I guess she wasn't THAT crazy................

It was a “drive tazer”, its like a cattle prod. Its the front part of the gun, and doesn't involve shooting the actual probes.

reply to post by Bedlam



A judge can order medications. That is how you treat someone who is so paranoid that they won't follow treatment. We used to have a team of the biggest guys on camput that would go to administer court ordered meds to a few larger, scrappier patients.

But the judge will only order what is under medical advice from the patients doctor. And the doctor can make his own judgement call requiring a medication to be given on an emergency basis, without a court order. That is how you address emergencies where people need to be knocked out for everyones safety.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


well as it was in the OP's original link and the media posted it figured it was ok but if its against t and c have a mod remove it as it was not my intent just try to add more info to the conversation

www.aha.org... some futher info on hippa

depts.washington.edu... its for washington state so take that for what its worth but found this passage relevent

X. Responding to a court order, warrant, or subpoena HIPAA and Washington State law must be read together to understand how a hospital should respond to a court order, warrant, or subpoena. A health care provider must provide information to law enforcement authorities when the health care provider is required to do so by law, such as in the case of a properly issued court order or warrant. 66 However, any court order, warrant, subpoena, summons, grand jury subpoena, and administrative order must be properly issued and must meet certain requirements before PHI is disclosed. 67 Court ‐ ordered requests: The hospital may disclose PHI without prior authorization if the information is requested pursuant to a court order or court ‐ ordered warrant, or a subpoena or

it is futher clarified further on directly below this quote in the pdf but its waaaay to big of a passage to quote but think its informative on the matter brought up by the OP

hipaa.ucsf.edu...

www.cdc.gov... for those that were discussing contagious diseases and the procedure for how they are handled(ie who can take a quarantined person from a hospital) are explained here and who has authority in such matters(cdc so federal gov)

pavil
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

You miss my point, would YOU have allowed two patients to go outside, unsupervised on a Fresh Air Break?

I doubt you would, but let's hear it.

Depends on the doctors order. If they are under a unit protection, then they cannot leave the building. If they have a ground restriction, they cannot leave the gated area outside the building. If they have no restriction, they have free roam of the campus patient areas (basically, anywhere not hear the fence, parking lots, or machine area).

Have you ever worked in a mental hospital? You seem to be gaining some sarcasm over my recount of my years of experience doing just that. I worked admissions on an acute care unit. The sickest of the sick. Turds and vomit thrown at you from time to time. That is somewhat mild, and the stories I could tell (but won't) would possibly shock you. Mentally ill people are capable of anything at any time.

reply to post by RalagaNarHallas


i am not complaining about you posting it. I am complaining about it being available for you to post. No worries here.

bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by Bedlam

 

But the judge will only order what is under medical advice from the patients doctor. And the doctor can make his own judgement call requiring a medication to be given on an emergency basis, without a court order. That is how you address emergencies where people need to be knocked out for everyones safety.

It's in the doctor's scope to give meds. The judge can't just say "Hey, I've been reading my PDR, and I order this guy to get 20ml of diprivan IV push Q4h". Or "I think what would settle this guy down is a fast appendectomy, I order you to perform one"

eta: what the judge can do is order the patient to be given the doctor's prescription against his will, again acting for an incompetent patient's welfare. But he doesn't have the authority to write the order's contents. Moreover, if all the way down to the nurse giving the meds decides it is not in the patient's best interest, he/she can refuse the order and give some or none of it.

If the patient has a systolic of 70 and a judge orders him to get morphine, you cannot be legally compelled to administer it, judge or no.

bigfatfurrytexan

They do it all the time. Some realize that they are actually around crazy people, and decide that they would rather be back in the cell. But it happens all the time.

The "forensic" patients at my wifes hospital have done things like eat their own mother after murdering her. And they get to have a laptop with wifi, cell phones...all the stuff that an inmate doesn't get. You just gotta play crazy or make clear threats against your own life. It isn't hard, really. And it happens a lot.

What...you thought that the prisons were our only prison population? With the improvement in psychiatric meds coupled with cuts in mental health funding, there were real threats to bigger facilities. So they adapted, and opened up hundreds of new beds for inmates to fill.

WIth police like we see in the OP, thats a good thing. Otherwise, she may have to sleep on a cot.

Hopefully your wife will be retired soon, sounds like a HELL of a job. Don't envy the two of you. Are these the people who end up pleading insanity in cases you hear about?

Stay Safe. I have a friend who is 6 foot 5 probably 350, who says he barely can keep some of his wards under control.

I was talking about situations where the Court has ordered something from the Hospital to produce for investigations, and the Hospital hems and haws about it, even with the Court Order. Once the Judge threatened to hold the Hospital Admin in contempt till the Order was followed. That got them complying real quick when the Judge asked for the person's home address so the Police could pick them up.

paxnatus
You sound very self righteous! Since when does someone accused of sexual assault trump the rights of the victim!!

As a nurse i can say the suspect was not being managed properly in the hospital!!!!

Yes, I have lots of righteous anger when I see police behaving like thugs.

Though I do agree with you that something was not right, here. That person should not have been unsupervised enough to harm another patient. That's one of the main reasons I speculated as to whether the report was legitimate, in a previous post.

And one more: I do get your point about power-tripping nurses. I've seen it. Those people are horrible. But I'm not certain that's what's going on here. Not quite enough info to tell. But I've seen the police over-react, and let their egos get in the way so much that when I see something like this, I can't exclude the possibility, as it's often the most likely scenario.

defcon5
Do you think that if the supervisor had told the police they could not enter that they police would have just left? The supervisor has no more right to overturn a judges warrant then the nurse did.

Not exactly. You miss my point. I think the supervisor could have given them an opinion, at the very least.


"This patient is stable, physically but delusional and violent...."

Or


"This patient requires oxygen," or "This patient requires meds A,B, and C for their health, and W,X,Y, and Z every -n- hours or they'll become unstable..."

Etc etc.


Do excuse some of my speculation earlier in the thread. But this was a really poorly written article, and didn't give nearly enough info about the background. They made it sound like someone phoned in a complaint and the cops were just responding, and wanted to waltz in and take this guy, knowing nothing about him.


Some of my points still stand, though. Especially the one where they could have been a little more patient, and courteous in working with the nurse, whether she was acting normal, difficult, or whatever.

iwilliam
Yeah, I don't think that should be allowed in most cases, as I see it as a massive violation of rights.

Okay, I have already exaplined this, but lets try it again...

When you are under arrest you don't have any “rights” to yourself anymore, your in the legal “custody” of the state and they are 100% responsible for you.

You don't have the right to decide leave.
You don't have the right to decide what you eat.
You don't have the right to decide where you sleep.
You don't have the right to decide when you shower.
You don't have the right to decide what meds you take/don't take if ordered by a judge...

iwilliam
(PS-- Mega dose from an air syringe? Months at a time? lol wut?)

Yes...
if you are in jail or prison and a judge has ordered you take certain meds, but you refuse, they write a court order that you must. The guards will put on “armadillo armor”, get out shock shields and stun batons, at least six of them will enter your cell and pin you to the ground while a nurse comes in with a pneumatic syringe and gives you a mega-dose of months worth of meds in one shot. You then get to sit in your cell and drool for awhile.

pavil

Sure, they can just drag someone infectious to jail. Or someone who will die without medical treatment. They can just drag someone on life support down to the station on a stretcher.

Really??? Please show me cases where the Police were in their rights to do THAT. If there is a known medical condition that would IMMEDIATELY threaten the life of someone, they must take proper actions.

I'm not saying they have done that. Actually, I was using sarcasm, and the exact same kind of hyperbole you (correctly) accused me of earlier, to illustrate the ridiculousness of the idea that the police should be able to do whatever they want to a person, regardless of their medical condition.

The nurse said "Uh uh, not on my watch", and seemed to believe she had the authority to circumvent the warrant. I was disgusted when I watched the video. If that patient is well enough to get out of bed, and assault another patient, they are well enough to go to jail. That she was trying to protect that man and interfere with justice is what is appalling!

And now she wishes to sue for getting exactly what she deserved? Priceless. Nope, not getting on the let's all hate authority band wagon with this one.

CdT

reply to post by defcon5


Was it activated? Did she, get really Tazed? Didn't realize there were multiple types out.

Just a side note to add here in the seeming debate over Court limitations and Doctors carrying more power?

I believe we all recall the case of Terry Schiavo, right? I think her family would have words over the idea that Courts hold no jurisdiction to counter or outright order action whether the local doctor agrees with it or not.

The only thing in the system the United States follows and operates under, which trumps a Judge with a lawful order, is a HIGHER Judge and a countermanding order. That's done often enough too, which is how the Schiavo case came to be a world spectacle.

*In the end, as it happened, the court was entirely correct and the forensic examination left no physical question possible as to that matter. It was a crap shoot and roll of loaded dice to listen to the various armies of paid experts at the time though. Many Doctors. Many, well known and expert in their fields for testimony. All on one side or the other and 100% certain they were right and the other side? Wrong.

The Court's say was, in the end, the final say and we all know what happened next. So... no.. Doctors, Nurses and Hospitals don't trump courts, Judges and lawful warrants. They're welcome to get another Judge to argue the first one.

...but 2am in a Hospital corridor, in front of cops looking to make an arrest on sexual offenses for a man still capable of becoming a threat, is neither the time or place, IMO.

bigfatfurrytexan

defcon5

bigfatfurrytexan

RalagaNarHallas
media.cmgdigital.com... here is the pdf of the incident report for any one interested in it i had not seen it posted yet

Great. So now we know this man was in treatment at a mental hospital. HIPPA isn't relevant i guess.

When you are under arrest you have your constitutional rights suspended. That means that other rights such as HIPPA are also suspended. That is why people in prison have no right to keep it secret that they have HIV, Hepatitis, etc...

The way you state that....and seem to accept it....

....never mind.

one wonders what all the fuss about Miranda was all about
or why they bother reading you your rights when you're arrested

naw BFFTexan, it's all about winning the argument and always coming out on top
no matter what, that "go for the win"attitude that is an inextricable part of the American Psychosis

this is what I mean about some folks being delusional...

especially when Natural Law will always Trump any Legal or "Legal" delusions
after all:

“The convoluted wording of legalisms grew up around the necessity to hide from ourselves the violence we intend toward each other. Between depriving a man of one hour from his life and depriving him of his life there exists only a difference of degree. You have done violence to him, consumed his energy.”

― Frank Herbert

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


ah thanks i just thought i broke a rule on ats i didnt know about so thanks for clarifying it ,and yeah as a former mental health employee i am kind of surprised the info was listed but i dont think most law enforcment are fully trained in hippaa and thus dont worry about those things when writing their reports



added as reply instead of edit as i had orignaly intended

Bedlam
A judge might be able to write a withdrawal of care order if the patient has no family and is incompetent, because a layperson kin to the patient can do the same.

Not always true, look at what happened with the girl whose family and husband disagreed.

Bedlam
A judge cannot order an inmate to be given 100mg of Trazodone QHS prn insomnia. Because that's not in his scope.

They can if its someone that is under arrest. I don't legally know the details, but it does happen. I don't know if they consult with a physician, or they have judges who are also physicians, but it happens.

Bedlam
Case in point - Lisa Hofstra. She was ordered by a cop to perform a blood test on a guy they dragged into an ED in Chicago, IIRC. She replied she could not do so without the man being admitted, and could not do so without a physician's order to draw the blood at any rate. So the guy arrested her for obstruction, and the city dropped the charges as being unlawful and paid out $78k. I would not have settled, personally.

'
the problem here is that the officer didn't have a judges warrant, if he did then she would have had to comply. They can force you to have a blood draw based on a judges warrant, that is how DWI roadblocks in “no refusal” states work.

bigfatfurrytexan


Depends on the doctors order. If they are under a unit protection, then they cannot leave the building. If they have a ground restriction, they cannot leave the gated area outside the building. If they have no restriction, they have free roam of the campus patient areas (basically, anywhere not hear the fence, parking lots, or machine area).

Have you ever worked in a mental hospital? You seem to be gaining some sarcasm over my recount of my years of experience doing just that. I worked admissions on an acute care unit. The sickest of the sick. Turds and vomit thrown at you from time to time. That is somewhat mild, and the stories I could tell (but won't) would possibly shock you. Mentally ill people are capable of anything at any time.

I haven't Disrespected you, If you think I have, apologies are in order. Haven't worked at one, visited a friend there and have a friend who works in one that sounds similar to your experiences. When I visited my friend, it seemed like wherever patients were outside of their rooms, there was hospital personnel in visual sight. From my experiences, it seemed like they were always being monitored when out and about.

bigfatfurrytexan
The way you state that....and seem to accept it....

....never mind.

because its true man.

Custody
The care, possession, and control of a thing or person. The retention, inspection, guarding, maintenance, or security of a thing within the immediate care and control of the person to whom it is committed. The detention of a person by lawful authority or process.

You lose your rights and the state takes custody of you. If that were not the case, you could just exercise your right to walk out of prison.

reply to post by iwilliam

No worries.

Police Do have guidelines that they have to follow. Common sense still does have a place.