Police attack nurse because she called her supervisor.

reply to post by Bedlam


Bedlam, I am referring to situations where there are clear cut orders for the hospital to cooperate with Law Enforcement activities and STILL they try to not do what is ORDERED by a Court. And yes, they really still do try to not follow Court orders, to the point where I have had to have a Sheriff, Chief of Police or Judge call the Hospital Administrator and tell them.

You are adding what if's into situations where it really is cut and dry.

If that were the case, you would see criminals flock to hospitals and avoid the Police.

Don't work like that. Sorry.

If the guy's been legally committed to psychiatric care, and whichever bit of legal paperwork for that state has been done (like a PEC), he is then the ward of the county already - can a cop remove a committed patient from a psych facility? It would be like a city cop going to the county slam and arresting someone out of their lockup into his, wouldn't it? Only in this case, it's a degradation of care, since the cops aren't qualified to administer psychiatric care or meds.

iwilliam
You seem to think like the cops do. Namely that the badge gives them the authority to go anywhere, or do anything they want. It does not.

It allows them to go anywhere that is within their jurisdiction, private or public property makes no difference. If they have to deal with something federal, or on federal land, then federal officers are used. That covers 100% of all US land.

iwilliam
Medical treatment takes precedence over interrogation, arrest, and criminal prosecution. Always.

Actually no it doesn't.
That is why suspects have been allowed to bleed out on scene while its being secured with EMS just a few feet away.

I realize that you hate cops, but the truth is that they are the most powerful people in this country. Cops, especially Sheriff Officers (as they are Constitutionally guaranteed) are the only people in this country that have the legal right to suspend citizens constitutional rights based on a 'BELIEF'. They don't have to know you have committed a crime, they only have to have a reasonable 'belief' you have to legally take your rights away.

They can then effect an arrest, and if need be, they can legally do so even at the cost of the suspects life if they resist.

iwilliam
This suspect was not just a suspect, but also a patient at a hospital.

That gives them ZERO additional standing in the eyes of the law.
That is about as silly as saying that a shoplifter is also a “customer” of the store they stole from...

iwilliam
Possibly unwell enough for interrogation, arrest, or transport. I have seen many times, cases where a suspect was injured at the scene, where the cops showed up, and instead of being arrested and taken to jail, was escorted to the hospital.

they are sent there to be stabilized, then they are shipped to the Jail infirmary or a hospital that has a contract with the city/county/state to deal with inmate patients. While they are being stabilized, they will be accompanied by an officer. People use going to the hospital as a plan to escape police custody all the time. They figure they can get admitted, AMA out, and have a relative come pick them up.

... locking a door to obstruct their access. That's a petty thing when we're looking hard for ways to make it the fault of Police for anything and everything which happened.

Locking a half height door that an officer reached over and unlocked. That was difficult. Petty, sure was, on the part of the police to use that as a reason for violence.

This is not worth the time trying to point out the obvious that some will never see.

reply to post by roadgravel


From what I read of the police report, she was shot with a Tazer, then asked
what hit her butt, was told that it was a Tazer, ordered to get up, which she did, WITHOUT the Tazer being activated.

I guess she wasn't THAT crazy................

pavil

bigfatfurrytexan

The suspect is not the patient I am referring to. I am referring to every other patient on that unit. The individual isn't going to get away....they are in a locked psychiatric unit.

It couldn't have been that...... read the article again, when the groping occurred it was when both the man and the women were outside on an unsupervised smoke break. That wouldn't happen in a locked psychiatric unit, would it?

You are making suppositions here not supported by the information we have.

Yes, it would. Like i said, i worked 5 years in a mental hospital. My wife still works there. They actually don't allow smoking there anymore by patient or staff. But they get "fresh air breaks". Matter of fact, they can't smoke because they are all "forensic patients" (meaning they are serving a sentence and are deemed unfit for regular population due to mental illness).

When I worked there we had a blending of 46.02 commitals (the criminally insane) and folks on regular 72 hr, 14 day, or 90 day commitments. And quite a few annual renewals (for folks who just became institutionalized and didn't want to leave, and really were just barely managed insanity cases).

The only time a police person was ever allowed on campus was right before they gave up on the idea of an adolescent unit. This one girl had caused severe damage by causing repeated riots. They finally called the cops in and had her sent to jail instead of the hospital. I recall seeing them spray her with tear gas from almost point blank range, and her still swinging at them. She refused water to rinse her eyes when she was finally cuffed. She had already destroyed a set of 4 point restraints, and put a security guard in the hospital (he is now on disability from the head injury) in prior altercations.

It took THAT to allow police on our unit. And they still weren't allowed to have their firearms.

pavil
reply to post by Bedlam

 

If that were the case, you would see criminals flock to hospitals and avoid the Police.

Don't work like that. Sorry.

They do. And the cops come to the hospital and have to wait with the prisoner, until there's a medical release. And while they're there, they don't get to say "Nope, this guy isn't getting a nitro drip" or "No CT for this one", or "Hey, get that guy off the cath lab table, we're taking him downtown!".

Bedlam
If the guy's been legally committed to psychiatric care, and whichever bit of legal paperwork for that state has been done (like a PEC), he is then the ward of the county already - can a cop remove a committed patient from a psych facility? It would be like a city cop going to the county slam and arresting someone out of their lockup into his, wouldn't it? Only in this case, it's a degradation of care, since the cops aren't qualified to administer psychiatric care or meds.

This is exactly correct.

Is it a locked unit? If so, then it meets guidelines needed to house inmates under patient care.

If it is a place where you just go to dry out, or stop feeling sad....then that is a different story.

bigfatfurrytexan
Like I said...unless we have information otherwise, it looks like she picked up the phone to call someone. While she was doing that, they rushed in on her.

Go read the published police report.
It states that she made remarks that she was not going to allow them to take him into custody. Maybe he was her favorite patient, maybe she felt obligated to protect him from the law, who knows. It obvious that the staff had been verbally correcting him for this behavior in the past, and not doing anything to stop it.

Just like many people who get arrested, or their loved ones, she was looking for a reprieve for him via her supervisor. I cannot think of any other reason why any medical person would act the way she did.

Bedlam
A LEO cannot compel medical care. They can't change how care is given. They can't impede medical care. They can't compel testing. They can't claim obstruction if medical personnel don't do things their way, because they are not licensed medical personnel. If they try it, they end up charged with practicing medicine. A cop can't order a doctor or nurse to do or not to do something medical in nature.

Yes they can under the order of a judge.
That is why judges have ordered all sorts of medical stuff over the years such as “pulling patients plugs”, removing feeding tubes, etc...

pavil
reply to post by Bedlam

 

Bedlam, I am referring to situations where there are clear cut orders for the hospital to cooperate with Law Enforcement activities and STILL they try to not do what is ORDERED by a Court. And yes, they really still do try to not follow Court orders, to the point where I have had to have a Sheriff, Chief of Police or Judge call the Hospital Administrator and tell them.

You are adding what if's into situations where it really is cut and dry.

If that were the case, you would see criminals flock to hospitals and avoid the Police.

Don't work like that. Sorry.

They do it all the time. Some realize that they are actually around crazy people, and decide that they would rather be back in the cell. But it happens all the time.

The "forensic" patients at my wifes hospital have done things like eat their own mother after murdering her. And they get to have a laptop with wifi, cell phones...all the stuff that an inmate doesn't get. You just gotta play crazy or make clear threats against your own life. It isn't hard, really. And it happens a lot.

What...you thought that the prisons were our only prison population? With the improvement in psychiatric meds coupled with cuts in mental health funding, there were real threats to bigger facilities. So they adapted, and opened up hundreds of new beds for inmates to fill.

WIth police like we see in the OP, thats a good thing. Otherwise, she may have to sleep on a cot.

reply to post by paxnatus


now look here ma'am,
did you see the long list of hypotheticals I posted, the second one "kidnapping" which
for purposes of twisting my post defcon combined with the 1st "arrest"?

this is the typical sociopathic and deceptive word games employed, legally, btw, on a daily basis by police in particular and sociopaths in general, be he a LEO or not, delusional people are never convinced by arguments, only by being smashed on the rocks of reality, so I feel no need to argue or debate the matter or any matter at all,
as I only "preach to the Remnant."


thank you for your service nurse pax, hopefully your open door policy doesn't allow a corrupt police officer
to just waltz in and:

kidnap somebody
silence[murder]/intimidate a witness
snatch a baby [for sale, sex or organs]
rape somebody

because you were too...

trusting?

iwilliam

You can not fairly assume that because they were in a psych ward, that they did not also have a medical issue as well, including potentially something contagious.

If you have the plague, and active psychotic delusion, they don't keep you in intensive care, they keep you in the psych ward, generally speaking.

Grasping at straws here, I honestly have a hard time following your train of thought on this one. They would isolate them and follow quarantine protocols I'm sure, regardless of the location in the Hospital. Again, all of this is moot as there is NO evidence to even hint at your claim.

And to those of you saying that they should have been allowed in immediately, because what about the safety of the other patient (the accuser)...?...

So let me follow you here...... The Police should not be let in since the accuser's safety MIGHT be in question? I have had the pleasure of being in those same situations of disturbed people like you state, I agree, it's not fun. That's why I would welcome the Police. Obviously, the staff wasn't on the top of their game as it sounds like this gentleman had done similar things in the past.

It can get pretty crazy. That's why it's a locked psych ward.

Again, if it was a locked psych ward would they have let the suspect AND the accuser go outside for an unsupervised smoke break?

bigfatfurrytexan

RalagaNarHallas
media.cmgdigital.com... here is the pdf of the incident report for any one interested in it i had not seen it posted yet

Great. So now we know this man was in treatment at a mental hospital. HIPPA isn't relevant i guess.

When you are under arrest you have your constitutional rights suspended. That means that other rights such as HIPPA are also suspended. That is why people in prison have no right to keep it secret that they have HIV, Hepatitis, etc...

defcon5
reply to post by iwilliam

 

Judges trump doctors, and can order things that may not be medically advisable in a doctors opinion.
For example, Judges can order a prisoner to take meds if they are in custody and refuse to do so. In that instance they can force them, with an extraction team, to take months worth of them at one time injected via a mega dose from an air syringe.

Yeah, I don't think that should be allowed in most cases, as I see it as a massive violation of rights.

I could only agree in a case where someone was in a locked psych ward, and were still completely uncontrollable and regularly violent. But even then, I'm not so sure I agree with it. Could just as easily keep them strapped down if they don't agree to meds, and they're violent.

Once upon a long time ago, I was put in restraints. They're pretty effective. I only managed to get out once, and I'm a decent sized guy who was a big fan of Harry Houdini as a kid.


Anyway, I don't think what you said has any bearing on my opinions. Something like that can only be done in very limited, extreme cases. And you are talking about forcing a person to take a med for their own good, or for the safety of others.


That is not analogous to withholding medically necessary treatment.


The right to necessary treatment, health and wellbeing is not one I think a judge can over-ride. If you disagree, I'd love to hear some supreme court cases.



(PS-- Mega dose from an air syringe? Months at a time? lol wut?)

iwilliam
You can not fairly assume that because they were in a psych ward, that they did not also have a medical issue as well, including potentially something contagious.

You also cannot prove that they aren't really aliens...
Napoleon...
Jesus Christ...

Whats your point here?
Anyone that a cop arrest on the street could potentially be carrying some infectious disease, its a risk of the job.

defcon5

bigfatfurrytexan
Like I said...unless we have information otherwise, it looks like she picked up the phone to call someone. While she was doing that, they rushed in on her.

Go read the published police report.
It states that she made remarks that she was not going to allow them to take him into custody. Maybe he was her favorite patient, maybe she felt obligated to protect him from the law, who knows. It obvious that the staff had been verbally correcting him for this behavior in the past, and not doing anything to stop it.

Just like many people who get arrested, or their loved ones, she was looking for a reprieve for him via her supervisor. I cannot think of any other reason why any medical person would act the way she did.

Probably because the arrest is stupid. He is a mental patient. Hypersexuality is part of that whole thing. Lower inhibitions.

One guy kept trying to have sex with this other guy once. He came from a very religious family, and had a psychotic break that ended up being diagnosed as schizophrenia. Anyway, one his meds start to work, he realizes that he had been having sexual relations with another guy (a lovely product of our understaffed, state run hospital was that this could have actually happened). He felt horribly guilty for it, and that required a whole new level of treatment to address.

He grabbed her butt and said lurid things to her. And a judge actually issued a warrant for that. And those cops actually manhandled that nurse for that. Really.

I have often said that you can be killed for not paying your parking ticket. And its true. This story just kind of goes to show that.

Im sorry, defcon. I just don't think I am going to see it your way without more information. If he was in a locked psych ward, then he is already essentially under arrest and they can just serve a subpoena for a court date, or schedule questioning during normal business hours.

defcon5
Yes they can under the order of a judge.
That is why judges have ordered all sorts of medical stuff over the years such as “pulling patients plugs”, removing feeding tubes, etc...

A judge might be able to write a withdrawal of care order if the patient has no family and is incompetent, because a layperson kin to the patient can do the same.

A judge cannot order an inmate to be given 100mg of Trazodone QHS prn insomnia. Because that's not in his scope. Similarly, he can't order a doctor to perform a surgery, nor to withhold a med. Because he can't order medical care. Cops can't say "You can't give this guy an aspirin for chest pain, because cop". At that point it's practicing medicine without a license.

Case in point - Lisa Hofstra. She was ordered by a cop to perform a blood test on a guy they dragged into an ED in Chicago, IIRC. She replied she could not do so without the man being admitted, and could not do so without a physician's order to draw the blood at any rate. So the guy arrested her for obstruction, and the city dropped the charges as being unlawful and paid out $78k. I would not have settled, personally.

iwilliam
I might have been flipping out, too. They roughed her up, tazed her, and arrested her for trying to do her job the way she saw fit.

They “drive tazed” her on the way to the car because she was throwing such a hissy-fit.

defcon5

bigfatfurrytexan

RalagaNarHallas
media.cmgdigital.com... here is the pdf of the incident report for any one interested in it i had not seen it posted yet

Great. So now we know this man was in treatment at a mental hospital. HIPPA isn't relevant i guess.

When you are under arrest you have your constitutional rights suspended. That means that other rights such as HIPPA are also suspended. That is why people in prison have no right to keep it secret that they have HIV, Hepatitis, etc...

The way you state that....and seem to accept it....

....never mind.