What is so scary about thinking, or discovering, your Religion is false?

reply to post by Angelic Resurrection

Lame dude. You said 'it's an established fact'.
That means you have to have evidence and facts to support that statement.
Give them. Not some etherial emotional thing ... give rock solid facts.

Angelic Resurrection

If every1 was already saved, then Jesus dying on the cross was in vain.
But that is not the case.

Jesus said of the very people who put him on the cross, and who did not "believe in him" - "forgive them father for they know not what they do."

If it's an effective atonement, then it applies as an unconditional love and forgiveness to everyone whether they believe in him or not.

But as a free gift of unmerited Grace, it doesn't provide any real benefit unless and until the gift is received and opened, so it's an issue of ignorance or understanding.

The proselytizing of most Christians is what's in vain, really.

Unless all they have to share is Good News without a catch. It's not Good News however to tell people that unless they do receive it that they are going to hell - kind of takes the fun out of the precious gift of God's love which makes possible real love in kind both for God and people including one's self as we are loved.

There is no threat in the love of God through Jesus Christ, nor any bullying, just an open invitation and a FREE Gift of Life as it is.

reply to post by FlyersFan


I will. Jesus died on the cross for a reason and a purpose, by anticipation and with intent and as a free choice.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

I will. Jesus died on the cross for a reason and a purpose, by anticipation and with intent and as a free choice.

Speaking for myself personally, it was unnecessary. I don't want his sacrifice. I have nothing that any god needs to forgive me for. What I would ask forgiveness for, I would ask the people of this earth. And it is their decision to forgive me or not. It is their right and theirs alone.

Jesus has no part in it. Really, he should have died for God instead.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

That's a belief. Not an established fact.
The poster said 'established fact'.
So show the evidence supporting that established fact.

ETA .. I should say that I'm a Christian ... it's my BELIEF.
I have no solid evidence to show people that prove my belief is absolute established fact.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Absolute forgiveness is absolute liberation.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Check out this documentary, paying special attention to what happened on the day of the cross

And note also in the foreshadowing of Isaac's near sacrifice by Abraham, that a Ram was found nearby caught up in a thicket, in the context of this little item.

How Jesus made use of this lunar eclipse is also significant in so far as it rose over the horizon already entering into eclipse when he was already on the cross - I call it a double-reverse sting, double-bind hoodwink.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by Angelic Resurrection

 

Jesus shedding His Blood on the cross to Save Mankind, was not by
ant stretch of imagination any kind of black magic

It does if ingesting his blood and flesh binds you to God's will. It is a ritual of surrender, is it not? Consigning your soul to the will of God? Sounds pretty dark to me.

Eating His Flesh and Drinking His Blood is to partake of The Eucharist.
A sin laden soul is the heaviest thing you carry. Giving your soul to Jesus
is liberation and not surrender. No darkness but eternal Light.

FlyersFan
reply to post by Angelic Resurrection

 

Lame dude. You said 'it's an established fact'.
That means you have to have evidence and facts to support that statement.
Give them. Not some etherial emotional thing ... give rock solid facts.

You seem to be certainly lame and blind dude.
Holy Spirit is the rock solid Fact, as tangible as your laptop keyboard.
Jesus did say: Those who have ears let them hear, and those who have
eyes let them see.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


He was God, taking on responsibility for all of it.

Also anticipated I'm sure was your lack of gratitude. Just be prepared to be in for a big surprise someday and with someone like you it will be even better, and you won't have any questions or any accusations to make at that point.

I can just imagine you and God saying to each other "just who do you think you are?!" It will be a riot.

reply to post by wildtimes


Funny how "agnostics" continually ponder God and religion, and continually talk about these things. I think it is because they are so afraid of being wrong, they are always trying to convince themselves of something that deep down they truly don't believe. Putting others down for believing what they are afraid of gives them a false sense of security. But it doesn't last. And when they are alone, being still in their bodies and their minds they are just scared. Are you just a scared little boy attacking others to give yourself a small reprieve op?

reply to post by yamammasamonkey

Funny how "agnostics" continually ponder God and religion, and continually talk about these things. I think it is because they are so afraid of being wrong, they are always trying to convince themselves of something that deep down they truly don't believe. Putting others down for believing what they are afraid of gives them a false sense of security. But it doesn't last. And when they are alone, being still in their bodies and their minds they are just scared. Are you just a scared little boy attacking others to give yourself a small reprieve op?

Funny how "Christians" always assume they know something they claim is beyond knowing. They don't know where it comes from or what it is, but they sure as hell know exactly what it wants and what it will do if things don't go its way.

reply to post by yamammasamonkey

Are you just a scared little boy attacking others to give yourself a small reprieve op?

LOL!!! Um, no.

I'm a middle-aged woman, mother of two (young adults, who, miraculously, survived my parenting! ); wife, daughter, sister, mom.....
A scared little boy????
LOL

Have you considered the questions in the OP?

reply to post by NewAgeMan


What if he died because it was him that truly bares the first sin.. it was his burden and he died for all of us because that was the deal to our father? What if we are the fallen and must rise again to new life when we reach "christ" consciousness?

The Bible could be interpreted this way.

Do you think maybe Jesus went to hell because he believed in one at THAT TIME... during that particular incarnation. Maybe he evolved as we all will?

Ya never know... I can interpret the Bible this way ^^^.

Just sayin.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

I will. Jesus died on the cross for a reason and a purpose, by anticipation and with intent and as a free choice.

Dear NAM,
That, that you just typed in response to 'prove it' (by FlyersFan) (who also said: That means you have to have evidence and facts to support that statement.
Give them. Not some etherial emotional thing ... give rock solid facts) says and provides NOTHING in the way of "facts".

Give the facts. Not opinions. It's your opinion and belief that Jesus did such and such. But, you have NO FACTS (outside of the Bible) to back that up.

Or, if you do, please present them.
I've looked far and wide, for months and years and decades (yes, really) on end. Still don't see any "proof". Only 'opinions' based on scripture.
Sorry, that doesn't count (in my book).

reply to post by wildtimes


Of course I have. WE ALL HAVE. No human on earth has not considered these questions. We may all come at them from different perspectives and experiences, but we all consider them because it is human nature. You may want to ask yourself why it is that every one on earth has always questioned these things. I believe it is because it is the one thing that must be answered by each of us.

To the first part of your piece. I have been around. I have lived in different countries and lived a number of different lifestyles. I have lived in ways that would make a good number of "heathens" blush,and others hide in fear. Yet I know I have no idea about the experiences other people, trials, tribulations, joys or any of it. I do though believe that we all experience the same things on this earth to different degrees. We are all humans and we all live on the same earth. I have talked to people from many, many different walks of life about these things, I have pondered them, and meditated on them. I have not heard anything new from either side for many, many years. I believe they are the same arguments that have been around for thousands of years.
I have chosen to believe what I believe for reasons. I have not made my decision by chance. Listening to the same arguments, even if packaged differently, is not going to change my mind. Yet I still have wonderfully frustrating conversations about it, with people that have totally different views than me, yet which I love very dearly. I become very frustrated when someone such as yourself approaches the subject in a way which suggests that because someone believes differently than you, that for some reason they haven't got some special insight, or perspective that you have gained, or that they are unwilling to listen to you or try to see your side. Like I said previously, I believe that everyone has pondered these things and listened to the anterior views in their own time and way.

2) TO THOSE WHO ARE WILLING: WHAT IF YOU FOUND OUT, ABSOLUTELY, THAT YOUR 'FAITH' is UNFOUNDED?

Oh well. If I live my life in a way that I believe is pleasing to my Lord, I will love him with all my heart, all my mind and all my spirit. I will also love my neighbor as myself. I believe that when I fall short I will be forgiven if I do not do it willfully and if I am truly sorry and repent. If I find out that I was not supposed to do this, than I reckon I would rather be wrong. The longer I have lived my life this way, life has not gotten easier, but it has sure been more enjoyable and fulfilling, by a multitude of x's.

I am sorry for calling you a scared little boy. I pictured you as such because of the way your words read to me. I do stand behind the rest of my statement in my previous response.

reply to post by wildtimes


There's a lot of supporting historical evidence including extra Biblical evidence, that there was this person Jesus or Yeheshua who was indeed crucified under Pontias Pilate. The weight of historical evidence even points to the very day this took place. It's not a matter of mere "faith" that this is a historical fact. But what's astounding is that the very date of the cross can be fixed, and when we consider what took place on that day in terms of the celestial alignment (see my post above with the videos), then we have something rather astonishing in a physical track set in place like a recording of the event which can be rewound, astronomically. To then consider that to accomplish this on that day, that Jesus, in collusion with John the Baptist was working to a schedule and that it was they, not the PTB or even the mob, who were in control of events leading up to the cross, and beyond, is also astonishing.

In other words, there is clear evidence of a conspiracy whereby we all got "punk'd by God." LOL

In examining it closely, it's not only compelling, but even hilarious, if seen and recognized for what it is especially from the POV of the resurrected life ie: even still they could not kill him!

reply to post by wildtimes


Bewildered by the Thought Process of Others, I like that, because I too have suffered this malady. I don't know exactly where in my lives it occurred but I have always accepted that

CHANGE is the ONE fundamental Law

that we usually ALL Choose to Ignore.

I accepted it as one of the Main forces that we can count on in life, so why not incorporate it into Religion/Spiritual practice. I found most religions do not, so I did it for myself and could not be happier for making it a big part of my spiritual working space.
At an early age I came to the I CHING and NOW after 30 plus years of use and study find it invaluable in understanding how CHANGE Flows in and out of ones life.

1) TO THOSE UNWILLING TO READ OR LISTEN TO ANYONE WHO DISPUTES YOUR BELIEFS.....to read (or listen to or watch) material that disputes your beliefs, challenges your religion, might shake your faith, and suggest that those you 'follow' are "wrong", or worse - are LYING - I ask you "WHY?"

Again, lucky in my opinion, I have always had a mind that saw BOTH Sides of a coin equally at first in a very objective way. I usually allow information to present itself fully by searching out the CONTRARY notions that reside inside of any argument.

I was Raised Christian. My soul was moved strongest by Nature, so naturally Now I am Pagan. Not your average pagan, but pagan none the less. This didn't come about because of a hatred of Christ or any such thing, but actually my Christian Walk with Christ in My Life, which surprises so many when I say this. I studied theology since a pup, and went into a ministerial program to become a reverend in my twenties, but again my pagan self came forward and taught me about cycles, birth, death and rebirth. Change I learned was the ONE true constant so I embraced it as a tool.

I Welcomed, and still do, intelligent discourse on such subjects, longing for Insights I might have missed along my travels. I also incorporated Science, and Logic with the realization that they too have their valid Opposites that can teach us just as much, so Magick and Intuition find just as much use in my Worldview.

Others I have found like to find a comfortable place, sit and stay philosophically and spiritually. That is OK for them, but not myself.

2) TO THOSE WHO ARE WILLING: WHAT IF YOU FOUND OUT, ABSOLUTELY, THAT YOUR 'FAITH' is UNFOUNDED?

Personally I would be OK, as that is part and parcel of my system of belief anyway, change is good. It is the adjustment to change that we all dislike in its uneasy sway it has over us. Over the years a friend and I, whom I miss because of this, we would help each other "Out of our Boxes" that we would find ourselves. It was a great help having and intellectual sparing partner to bounce off of and help turn lights on for each other. ATS does this for me a lot. We must be a Race of being who embrace this way of being, or we will perish in our own stagnant modalities.

reply to post by wildtimes


Hello wildtimes! The question and concept you pose is truly multifaceted. The answers may be as differing and subjective as the very belief systems that prevent the clearness of truth.


Religion taps into a 'thing' which is very real. Whether we understand this "tapping in" as a communion/communication/union with God/Self/Universe/All. That experience which is very real on a level which is ineffable and inexplainable. Religion touches this very real 'thing', from which all religious edicts and theologies are based upon.

Once a trusted system (religion/philosophy/ideology) is presented to explain the above mentioned experience,... the very edicts, teachings, and doctrines become [superficially] as real to the "experiencer" as the 'experience' itself. Once one equates the real 'experience' with the presented system (religion/philosophy/ideology),... the 'experience' itself becomes the "proof" of legitimacy for the system, and vice-versa. The 'experience' and the system becomes intertwined and nearly inseparable. This is one reason as to the "Why?" of the op.

Many systems (religion/philosophy/ideology) give descriptions and explanations about existence, the universe, one's self, and life. Based on these foundations, one's entire view, opinion, and perception of the world is established.

To tear down the establishment of an entire world-view is a thing that many are unwilling to do. The removal of a single stone may cause the toppling of one's securities. Once a cornerstone has been removed, one's entire understanding of existence and one's self comes in to question. To step back from preconceived ideas leaves one unsure about all aspects of what one holds to be real, true, and right. To start over is difficult, frightening, and is a cause of suffering to those strongly attached.


Personally, that's how I felt when I first left Christianity for Islam, and the same when I left Islam. Now, my bowl is empty but my cup runneth over.

Peace!

reply to post by yamammasamonkey

I become very frustrated when someone such as yourself approaches the subject in a way which suggests that because someone believes differently than you, that for some reason they haven't got some special insight, or perspective that you have gained, or that they are unwilling to listen to you or try to see your side. Like I said previously, I believe that everyone has pondered these things and listened to the anterior views in their own time and way.

For someone who has walked so many walks (so have I), and talked to all sorts of people about this very thing (so have I), who has lived many different lifestyles (so have I),

and on and on
(traveled to many countries, been friends with people from even MORE countries, and made an effort to really KNOW the worldview of those people)....you certainly don't show an openness to actually perceive what I'm asking.

You seem very quick to jump to conclusions about me. First I'm a "scared little boy", then I'm assuming that I "have some insight or perspective that they don't." (neither of which is the case) yet you have not asked or investigated my own background, only "assumed" you can decipher it. You would do do well to SLOW DOWN in your judgment of me.

Your condescension is unwarranted. I didn't realize you were the head of the Committee to Consult before asking a Question that I had in my own mind.

So. You believe everyone in the world has questioned their beliefs. I disagree. It's obvious that some people HAVE NOT, and DO NOT WANT TO. End of chat.