rape prevention , by " teaching men not to rape " a concept ?

reply to post by ThePawnsTheory


You are putting words in my mouth I never said any of those things. Not even close. I'm saying racism in all forms is bad. Sexism in all forms is bad. Why become the thing you are trying to fight? This is why nothing ever gets solved. Apparently, to you, by practicing racism you can rid the world of racism. Flawless logic.

reply to post by ThePawnsTheory


That is true, and yet I won't risk my daughters who are drop dead gorgeous to be put in a place a possible trouble. We talk about this stuff, and how things happen. That actions have consequences and that they need to think before they do something.

I am thankful that we have a very open relationship and they know they can ask me anything, share their thoughts, and if they ever need me I will be there for them no matter what time it is or what I am doing. My son is very respectful of women and he hates the idea of any woman being mistreated for any reason. I am proud of him and believe one day he will make a good husband and father.

I wish more girls felt they did not need the attention of young men to feel loved and wanted, and I think a lot of this attention seeking is from a lack of true loving connections with their own fathers and family. I am reminded of what one teacher (male) said once in my boarding school and was somewhat along these lines:

(it was an all girls school, and faculty had to do bed check at various times)

"I would rather open a door and see two girls in bed together holding each other for comfort than see them throwing themselves at boys to get the simply affection they desire and to feel loved."

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity


For what it's worth, you sound like an incredible parent. Kudos to you. I mean that with every bit of my being.

Society is screwed up and It gets me down every day. I would love for it to all get fixed and it probably never will but I refuse to stop fighting for what i believe is right and wrong. I agree with most of what you are saying.

Khaleesi

Unified Serenity may correct me if I'm wrong but, I think the point is society has sexualized children at a young age now. Why do young girls wear skimpy clothes? Maybe because they want the boys to WANT them? There seems to be some cognitive dissonance at play here. If a girl dresses provocatively, why do they dress that way? To get noticed? "I want the guys to see me as a sexual being, want to have sex with me but, I don't really want to have sex." So they get the guys all worked up. Kinda cruel if you ask me.

And that is why I said earlier on that women share some(if not a lot) of responsibility/blame for leading guys on either consciously or unconsiously, and then have the hypocritical feminist types go on the boards and cry most men are rapists and women are saints.

As a male I wouldn't think of raping anyone, and even if I did think about it, I still wouldn't do it. I have been to nude beaches and some of the best clubs in the world but I go to get drunk and party, not to have sex. If I want sex I will go to the brothels or try hook up with someone the old fashioned way. If things mature great, if not then forget about it. It takes two to tango.

But still the 85% claiming they would rape if they could get away with it is astonishing to put it mildely. Society has devolved into a sewer. People doing drugs and thinking rape is ok, is not ok! Next thing you know murder might be ok too.

reply to post by theHattersfolly


You're misunderstanding me. Ignore the name of the website and read this with an open mind, if you will.

reply to post by ThePawnsTheory


I read it and I generally agree with what is being said. But it isn't a rebuttal by any means. Targeting groups of people based on a shared trait is an "ism" and that it is reiterated in your link. "Teach MEN not to rape" "All WHITE people should be taught not to use racial slurs" You are targeting a group. Do all men rape? no. Do all white people use racial slurs? no. "No one should rape" "No one should use racial slurs" those statements are not prejudiced while the prior are undeniably prejudiced.

And to be perfectly clear you are the one who brought race to the conversation.

As idiotic as this thread is, I'll have my say.

Not all men are rapists, not all women are sluts. Not all gangsters are black, not all blacks are gangsters. Not all gamers are nerds. Not all police are bullies.

In fact, it's the vast minority that are. So why should an entire people (i.e. men) be punished for what a very few do? It's like damning the entire United States for war crimes for what Bush Sr, Bush Jr, and Obama has done in Iraq and the M.E. as a whole because "All Americans kill".

The logic of this thread is totally insane. And guess what? We have been taught "not to rape". Since an early age, I've been taught "no means no", and to never force myself upon others. Be that a thought, an action or a belief. Throughout life, I've seen beautiful women that make my heart drop. Did raping them ever cross my mind? No. If anything, I was happy to know such beautiful people existed.

But let's not forget something here, something the OP and his/her defendants seem to be forgetting:

Women are also rapists

That's right, women also rape. They also see "man candy" and can't resist the urge to take some. They see a man with a tight butt and go insane, they can't help themselves. They too need to be taught not to rape.

Now see how idiotic the above sounds? Women aren't any more animals than men are. Women don't see men and go on to think "rape". Just like how men don't see women and think "rape". Even though both sexes are capable of, and have raped. Of course, the statistics are whacked seeing not all female on men rape cases are reported as it goes against the idea that men are "big and tough".

Now of course I fully believe this post will fall on deaf ears (or eyes rather), namely because the people in this thread (OP and his/her followers) have an agenda to push and anything that goes against that agenda will be ignored or "mocked" by using various logical and argumentative fallacies.

reply to post by ignorant_ape



Its still a meme and its still all about Me.



Good news. Not much further to go.

reply to post by theHattersfolly


I was hoping that link would spell out the irony and sarcasm that I was using to pose a debate with you. Guess not. My fault.

reply to post by ThePawnsTheory


I'm slightly confused. I must apologize, are you saying that your argument was meant as sarcasm as well? I mean obviously you were being sarcastic in words. I'm generally not very good at sarcasm in text and much more accustomed to taking visual and tonal cues.

Im a humanist. We are all the same person but with different experiences. I'm not a huge fan of the concept of nationality, gender, politics. It's all just a way for us to justify being #ty to each other. That is where I am coming from in relation to my argument in this thread.

BardingTheBard

Merlynn
From a woman's point of view they have to consider every male as a potential rapist (knowing that many don't).

From a man's point of view I have to consider every female a potential rape accuser for her own gain.

edit on 27-9-2013 by BardingTheBard because: (no reason given)

FreedomEntered
There is no gain in claiming someone raped them.

One of my male friend's was accused of rape. All but two or three friends immediately abandoned him and said nasty things to him. He was considering suicide at one point. .... And he was INNOCENT.
The woman who accused him of rape had been sleeping with him for 3 months and her cousin caught them having sex so she claimed he raped her. She didn't want her fiance to find out she was sleeping around on him, so she figured she would save her impending marriage by claiming my friend raped her.

Eventually the truth came out, her fiance dumped her and she moved out of the state in shame. As she deserved. When women like her lie about rape they cause women who really ARE raped to be viewed as potential liars. I have mentioned this in another thread earlier this year, but one of my female friends was raped by a drunk guy and no one believed her and kept trying to blame her... all because of liars who do lie about rape to get back at the guy or to protect their own interests.

As for the premise of the OP, I think that is a very stupid statement. People do wrong because they want to. Male. Female. Doesn't make a difference, what gender someone is if they want to commit a rape they will do so because it's what they want to do. I understand the woman who said that wants to make positive changes in the world because of what happened to her, but I wish people would think of logical solutions to problems instead of suggesting emotionally based illogical solutions.

Until our society takes a less emotional and more reasonable look at the 'spectrum' of the situation I think it will always be polarized and end up unfair to one or both genders.

I was date raped when I was 20 (I'm 48 now). I actually didn't have much experience with sex and had sworn off it nearly two years before, in the hopes of having a few years to resolve a dysfunctional childhood before having another relationship with a hopefully more appropriate, long-term guy.

I was a lower middle class girl who applied for a second evening job at a furniture store. The man who owned it (and several others), a very wealthy man in his mid 30s, interviewed me, basically told me I'd suck in a sales job, and then asked me to dinner. I actually said no, partly because I was kind of humiliated about how the interview went. He convinced me. We drove (in his limo...) to a restaurant I never could have afforded. I felt like I was playing dress-up... I really wanted to impress him. Into dinner he discovered I'd never seen a Charlie Chaplin movie and made this huge issue about films and history and how I absolutely must come see his collection after dinner.

So we went to his nice condo and he showed me this collection of stuff (VCR in those days) and he puts one on to play and I sit in this whole pillows on floor in front of screen thing he's got, and he immediately starts kissing on me. Now I wasn't super interested in even kissing him let alone anything else, because I was more conservative than the average friend of mine and really a little intimidated by the various ways he was flashing his money at me, I mean here I was applying for a second job to make some extra cash, at minimum wage, he was in a world pretty out of my league. But on the other hand I did like him, it was just very new, and I was trying to pretend I fit in, you might say, so I didn't want to be rude or make him think I didn't like him, either.

I turned my head away, and I scooted away, and ten minutes later I'd literally moved a good ten feet away on the floor and he was still nearly on top of me and I hadn't even kissed him back and I wasn't openly saying no but I was turning away from everything. And then he just managed to sort of leap on me and rip off my underclothes (I was in a business skirt) and rape me, which taught me some important lessons, like the one that two years of judo hadn't: there is no leverage from spread-eagle! C'est la vie. Some lessons you learn the hard way.

Through it all, my head was saying, "This is not happening. This is not happening." Which merely changed to, "That did not just happen. That did not just happen." afterward. I seriously could not believe that every ounce of strength I had to fight literally meant nothing, and that my finally shouting NO! in frustration when I realized he was suddenly so insistent -- I hadn't realized it was going that far, obviously! -- was pointless.

I was having a completely separate rape scene in my head which was all me vs. me in conversation, that went something like:

Me 1: Jesus H! Scream why don't you!
Me 2: You're such a child. Sophisticated women wouldn't scream like a baby. It's just sex.
Me 1: Just yell like crazy! Maybe it'll scare him or his neighbors will come.
Me 2: Oh my god. How humiliating is that, like the neighbors??
Me 1: Maybe someone will call the police.
Me 2: Oh yeah and they'll go, "Sure, she's at this rich guy's house at 1am why again?"
Me 1: But I didn't want this!
Me 2: Oh get over it. You know what they say, lay back and enjoy it or something.

Fortunately it was mercifully brief and over then. And then my head went down this list of things like:

1. He's a f'n idiot. But, maybe he actually thought you not saying no but pulling back just meant you really wanted to be forced. Maybe then he thought your finally saying no when it was just about in progress was just part of that.

2. Or maybe by that time he honestly was not thinking too clearly period, and you shouldn't have let it get that far, because even with men you've loved, you have to admit they are not at their brightest at that point.

3. Or maybe he really is the jerk he seems like, gee, rich guy drags young poor girl home, who'd believe her against him, Mr. Pillar of the Community, right? Then again, you walked right into that, didn't you. You agreed to go to this guy's house at -- well it was around 11pm then. Trying to be sophisticated, flattered he liked you.

I thought about the whole rape formality and concluded:

1. I'm not going to get raped again, publicly, on the witness stand, worse in its own way. Forget that. And yes, that's unfair to me, but then again since it would wreck his life, it's fair to his defense.

2. I really don't think that even I could utterly convince my acquaintances that he was "a rapist" given the objective circumstance, never mind a jury of his peers.

3. What would that fix? It's not like the man is molesting kids or assaulting strangers in parking lots.

4. Who would benefit? So a guy who is a self-made millionaire former poor kid now rich man what, is publicly ruined, then goes to prison for years of his life, all because his petting got out of control in the middle of a Chaplin video? What kind of insanity is that?

5. What the hell. I probably had worse sex I volunteered for at some point.

To me, the most humiliating thing was that I was a tough girl and he 'made me a victim' when I was so adamant (having come from a lousy childhood) that I would never be that to anyone ever again. I pretended it was nothing, that it had been sort of consensual. He actually called me a week later and asked me on another date, and another time, and I refused, he probably didn't even know why. So I'm pretty sure if I'd levied a rape claim against him he would have been astonished.

But he definitely kept coming on with no response from me, and then suddenly threw himself on me despite my shouting NO at him then, and fighting him with everything I had. I mean in that regard, despite that I was in his house late at night, I don't feel like there's any real debate about the logistics of whether it was rape from MY point of view.

It took me years to realize that I was a lot more emotionally and psychologically affected by it than I realized. I think it's a little more traumatic than most men realize, for most women, although I'm not entirely sure why, aside from the obvious physiological done-TO thing.

Was it rape? For me yeah. I married 8 years later, eventually divorced, but I've somehow managed to have the next 28 years of my life and never went on another 'date' -- I would never agree to get close to anyone I didn't already know fairly well from work or friend relations first. It took me a long time to realize that was a serious lack of trust issue on my part. Sigh.

But was it rape to HIM? It should have been. But I'm guessing, best case, probably not, and worst case, probably 'maybe didn't seem like that big a deal' to him.

Worth ruining his name, his businesses, and years of his life in prison over it? No.

If he'd attacked me in a parking lot, or drugged me, sure. But date rape like that? No.

When society has a better spectrum-response, when it's not destroying a man's whole life like it is now, maybe less will be unreported.

Teaching men like him to be more 'cognizant of no' (e.g. paranoid, if needed!) is good.

Teaching 'real' rapists is impossible. That's not sex, but assault with a sexual weapon.

taoistguy

ProfessorChaos

taoistguy

ProfessorChaos

taoistguy

luciddream
reply to post by taoistguy

 

It was a rebuttal for assuming "men normally rape" because "teach men not to rape" is essentially saying the same thing.. and it is one of the top phrase feminist use.

So i said they should be appreciative of what i did because i didn't rape them like they claim a man would.

In general, men rape. The number of reported, (meaning this does not include all the unreported rapes), rapes is staggeringly huge. Not to mention failed and attempted rapes, non-rape sexual abuse aloso.
I think the feminists have a very valid point.

Are we also going to teach women to not claim rape when it didn't happen?

There have been studies done that show that false rape claims account for anywhere from 2% (the number commonly tossed out by feminist groups) to 50% - 60% as noted Here

It works both ways. There are plenty of women out there that have gotten men put in prison for rape based almost solely on the fact that they are women and the accused did nothing more than having been born a man, and she said he did it.

And I beg to differ that being raped and being falsely accused are comparable. If I have to explain that sentence then I suggest therapy for whoever asks me to explain it.

So being raped and having been incarcerated on false charges are not both life altering events?

As for your remark about the website being dubious, I doubt you even read the article, since they themselves did not conduct the studies, there were several referenced that were conducted by sociologists, including one by Linda Fairstein, who headed the New York County District Attorney's Sex Crimes Unit, in which she states that "there are about 4,000 reports of rape each year in Manhattan. Of these, about half simply did not happen." - so the New York county D.A.'s office is dubious?

I made an attempt to engage you honestly, and gave source material, yet you disregard it out of hand, and I would imagine that that is because the numbers don't fit your argument.

I guess you really can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

edit on 9/28/2013 by ProfessorChaos because: typo - changed being to been in first sentence

Is being raped and being accused of rape different? Hmmm...Ask a rape survivor what it was like and how it has affected her.

And you are wrong, I read the article.

We can all post articles...Here's mine:
Crying Rape

I wonder if you will read it?
And if you do, if you say the Crown Prosecution Service is dubious?

Newly Added:
I never said being accused is not life changing, I said being raped is worse (especially gang rape and even further 'sexual torture' during the rape.) Stop putting words in my mouth and distorting what I said,

edit on 28-9-2013 by taoistguy because: (no reason given)

As I mentioned in my other post, the percentage ranges from 2% in some reports to 50 - 60%, which means that the actual true number is probably somewhere in the middle of that, which is STILL far too high. I also would like to point out, that it seems you've misread what I was arguing, I'm not comparing "being accused of rape" with rape, I'm comparing being imprisoned on false charges of rape and actual rape, and yes, I believe that those two things are comparable.

reply to post by Scorchio

If a man walked down the road naked, he'd be arrested as a pervert and a flasher.

Personally, i'd like to see everyone keep their clothes on. After a long day, the last thing i want to see is some-ones dangly bits.

Really is no big deal. A naked person i just that. We have been over sexualised and sexually suppressed as a peoples. It is a means of control...

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

No its not. Men are men and women are women. Only in the west is rape sensationalised!

Just because men are men does not make them rapists. It is a lack of compassion and emphathy that allows peoples to rape.
and yes i agree peeps on this thread see it worse than murder...

EarthCitizen07

No its not. Men are men and women are women. Only in the west is rape sensationalised! You would think its worst than murder just by reading some posts in this thread.

BOTH men and women share responsibility for their actions.

And the women would be arrested for indecent exposure which is a misdeamenor, just like a man would!

I have to point out that it is in the West that women have made the most gains in achieving some independence. Do you think that a male dominated society such as the Middle East is going to make anything important that happens to women? Women are property to them. Women have no rights, and you are going to somehow equate that with the issue of rape somehow not being a big deal in the "real world"?

Women do bear responsibility in many cases regarding date rape, but please examine your idea that real rape is blown out of proportion. Men are not going to make it an issue and if it's socially accepted then it's not uncommon for victims in such situations to start to justify what has happened to them. Likewise, most men like seeing naked women, and if that's what they want, do you really expect them call the cops to get her out of there? Most cops I know would have arrested her on the spot because it's the law, and they get the added benefit of laying hands on her and being the big bad police officer. I don't approve of women doing this sort of stuff, but you seem to have not looked at why rape isn't a big issue in other countries. At one time it was not a big issue to beat your wife in the West... you know the whole "Rule of thumb" thing.

ThePawnsTheory
reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

 

That's a parenting decision and you do what you think is best. I'm not disputing that at all. I'm just saying men are the majority of the problem when it comes to rape and it's because the way the media and old-school-frame-of-mind elders perpetuate the myth of how men should act. If everyone were treated equal and not told how each gender should act then I think we'd see less of that macho, ego crap from males.

Or more likely, men are macho egotistical beings by nature.....................

Human nature, can not be legislated or taught, it is what it is.

So those that don't wish to become victims, don't demand every person of a certain race gets "educated" or every person of a certain sex gets "educated", the smart person minimizes risk, by not going into the wrong neighborhoods, and not participating in risky behaviors.

Fact- people have been "educated" not to steal for thousands of years, thievery still exists.
Fact- people have been "educated" for hundreds of years that rape is wrong, rape still exists.
Fact- people have been "educated" for all human history that murder is wrong, murder still exists.

There is only one way to mitigate the risk of these things happening to you, it is isn't tougher laws, or more education etc....

It is to avoid situations that could put you in higher likelihood of these things.

I cant believe you honestly think the victims share absolutely no responsibility in these things. When a lot of them place themselves in the position for it to happen to begin with.

No, in a perfect world none of these things would ever happen, but this world is not now, nor will it ever be perfect, thinking it will or can be is dumb.

reply to post by oblvion





Every one is so engrossed in the 'come and get me' sexual attire of the female

who has been raped.....

So answer me this >>> within the last year I have read in the papers of two

instances of two separate women around 60 and 70 years of age being raped

at night in the 'presumed' safety of their respective homes

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity


I am pretty sure rape is illegal everywhere but the laws against it are more conservative, ie tougher to prove a case and there is no sensationalism attached to it and perhaps smaller sentences. To say women are property of men is also an exaggeration imo. They are simply not treated as equals, and imho they are not equals. Maybe close to equal, but not equal.

I grew up in a greek culture where fathers always have the last say in everything. They dont have a habit of beating up wives but wife knows here place in the house. I have been spanked plenty of times by my father and a few times by my mother. Its not uncommon. They call it discipline.

Sorry if we cant agree on everything, but I do agree with you on most issues and welcome your comments which are modest, in contrast to some others that spill vitriol.

In other words I can relate to the middle eastern lifestyle somewhat.

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

I wonder how many women on ATS if they could share their story anonymously would account of their bad experiences and admit they put themselves into harms way. It was terrible what happened, but had they not done X then the rape would not have occurred.

I bet they don't do it again.

Interesting, but not everyone feels they put themselves in harms way, or all the women who do put themselves in harms way, but are never raped.

I was out running on a military post, not far from my billlets. It was cold and drizzly day,I was stinky from sweat and the weather and wearing old sweats, plus it was that time of the month. Some guy was running on the other side of the road, he was wearing BDUs, he asked which way a certain building was, I turned and pointed. It was then that he grabbed me by the arm (leaving bruises in the shape of his hand), pulled out a knife and put it to my throat and drug me into the woods. I was 21 years old and only 5' 6", 110 lbs, he was probably over 200 lbs. I still managed to cut him and they got his blood type (B+), this was before DNA testing. Afterwords I found out I was so scared I crapped myself. I did go to the hospital and some people in my unit knew. I heard a lot of, "why were you out there?", as if I put myself in harm's way.

I know I didn't put myself in harm's way, I should be able to enjoy my life and do activities I like to do. Since then I don't care if the woman was running around naked, you don't rape. Wearing a tank top (an excuse for someone who raped a girl in FL back in the late 80's) is not putting oneself in harm's way. BTW, they can't use that excuse in FL anymore. Excuses, lame justifications for someone's bad behavior, don't care. More should be punished, but at the same time you want to make sure you get the right people.