A Critique of "Living in the Moment"

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Present and aware is what you are - nothing more and nothing less.
That which arises in awareness is constantly changing.

Thought changes constantly, sensation changes constantly, all things are changing constantly in the ever present awareness that you are.

Ever present awareness is just seeing and hearing and has no control over what is arising - it all arises unconditionally.

I've stated that we are by default "ever present" as you would call it. So I agree. Nothing changes that fact no matter what we do or don't think about.

NiNjABackflip
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Present and aware is what you are - nothing more and nothing less.
That which arises in awareness is constantly changing.

Thought changes constantly, sensation changes constantly, all things are changing constantly in the ever present awareness that you are.

Ever present awareness is just seeing and hearing and has no control over what is arising - it all arises unconditionally.

I've stated that we are by default "ever present" as you would call it. So I agree. Nothing changes that fact no matter what we do or don't think about.

Does the present ever begin or end?

Itisnowagain

It is not a thought stopping technique. Thinking cannot be stopped. However sometimes thought just ceases to arise for long enough to actually see that there is a space without thought.

Then you must not be an adept of meditation
www.wildmovement.com...



Nor aware of the therapeutic usage of thought stopping techniques
panicdisorder.about.com...

Or it's usage in brainwashing and cult indoctrination
francoistremblay.wordpress.com...

In many cults, a simple technique is taught to people in order to keep away doubt from their minds: every time they have a thought that veers towards asking questions or criticizing something, they are taught to think some phrase over and over, such as “just believe,” in order to drown out that thought. We call these phrase “thought-stoppers.”

These work even better when you are not aware that is what they are being used for.....

Changing thoughts ( as in the case of mind manipulations) does not stop (one’s)thoughts.

Changing peoples beliefs through repetition of a new belief system does not stop thoughts (as in media/political/advertising brainwashing and cult indoctrinations) .
Altering “not believing’(or doubts) into “believing” is not thought stopping.

Therapeutic efforts to change negative thought’s are made with CBT, in this practice it is attempted that harmful thoughts are changed to “positive”, thoughts are not stopped. In the therapy saying “STOP” is just a request to attention which is needed to change thoughts from ”negative” to “positive” . This therapy does not attempt to stop thoughts it attempts to change them.

reply to post by BDBinc


Repetition of mantras such as 'there is only now", "past and future do not exist'', 'there is no I that can choose"

are used to stop and deter thoughts about past and future, and intent.

They are considered "positive" replacement thoughts by people who feel that their past contains "negative" or painful experiences, and wish to avoid thinking about them, or about fears of similar painful experience in the future.

As you are probably aware, this is only effective in a temporary way, as it has been found that the practice causes the memories and fears to resurface even stronger with time. Some cults teach this to be a daily and constant exercise, however, claiming that through daily habit of using it, one can keep the negative thoughts about past and future away.
THus my comparison to a thought loop which is replayed to keep the mind going in the same circle.

The "there is no I" mantras are used to detour self aware thoughts, deemed "negative" by some groups, and often called "ego destruction" techniques.

I would say theres a time for living in the moment and a time for reflecting and inferring. Great presentation of this thread, too.

Living in the moment eases the mind. It is true that all of our observations of the world happen in the present. So to be aware, conscious, and alive, it seems helpful to focus all your attention to the present. It is true that while thinking about anything besides what is here and what is now, your awareness of what is here now is distracted and being that your consciousness operates only in the present, you are not living life to the fullest when not focused on the present.

reply to post by Bluesma

Not sure why we are now on the subject of mantras for BEING.
For being in the now there is no need for a mantra( and no one had recommended one).

No one said there was no I.


What is the ‘intent’ you say that is stopped by the past and future being mental constructs only?

In the therapy you said was thought stopping, I just said its not , they are just trying to replace “negative with "positive" thoughts.
Therapy for people who feel that their loop thinking about past "negative" or painful experience will be in the future( fearful of the past painful experiences and imagining it in the future).
What I said was that the link was not" thought stopping" therapy / techniques .

reply to post by Bluesma

Itisnowagain

It is not a thought stopping technique. Thinking cannot be stopped. However sometimes thought just ceases to arise for long enough to actually see that there is a space without thought.

When the space is known and then a thought arises it is seen that it arises in the space that is always present. The space is what contains all that arises.
Thoughts come and go and are transitory, just like all that appears. Whereas the space the appearance appears in is constant.

Would you like to comment on the rest of the post you half quoted?

BDBinc
reply to post by Bluesma

 

Not sure why we are now on the subject of mantras for BEING.
For being in the now there is no need for a mantra( and no one had recommended one).

I think, like as happened before you may have commented on something I said without regarding the post it was answering, and what it was refering to.
I had originally answered a comment which asked what use is repeating things like "be present in the now"?
(when it goes beyond need to say- we cannot be otherwise!)

I answered that the people who repeat that often, to themselves, and to others, can find it useful for this purpose.

It is a cognitive behavioral therapy technique, which is commonly refered to as "Thought Stopping"- used to stop thoughts deemed undesireable.

That is it "use", to answer the question I responded to.

No one said there was no I.

Then perhaps you have not followed the participation here, and elsewhere, of Itisnowagain, who posts this often. This is also a thought stopping technique for people who deem ego as undesireable.

What is the ‘intent’ you say that is stopped by the past and future being mental constructs only?

Any intent for future. Any goal, expectation, desire.....in order to have any of those, you must project them in mind with a thought about future. Do not think about future, you cannot have any conscious goals.

But be honest- I did not say intents are stopped by future and past being mental constructs- I and the poster I was answering agree that is a "given".... I said that using this technique to constantly remind oneself of that is used to stop constructing those mental constructs consciously .

Bluesma
reply to post by BDBinc

 

Repetition of mantras such as 'there is only now", "past and future do not exist'', 'there is no I that can choose"

are used to stop and deter thoughts about past and future, and intent.

They are considered "positive" replacement thoughts by people who feel that their past contains "negative" or painful experiences, and wish to avoid thinking about them, or about fears of similar painful experience in the future.

As you are probably aware, this is only effective in a temporary way, as it has been found that the practice causes the memories and fears to resurface even stronger with time. Some cults teach this to be a daily and constant exercise, however, claiming that through daily habit of using it, one can keep the negative thoughts about past and future away.
THus my comparison to a thought loop which is replayed to keep the mind going in the same circle.

The "there is no I" mantras are used to detour self aware thoughts, deemed "negative" by some groups, and often called "ego destruction" techniques.

edit on 16-9-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)

Not sure why we are now on the subject of mantras for BEING.
For being in the now there is no need for a mantra( and no one had recommended one).

No one said there was no I.


What is the ‘intent’ you say that is stopped by the past and future being mental constructs only?

In the therapy you said was thought stopping, I just said its not , they are just trying to replace “negative with "positive" thoughts.
Therapy for people who feel that their loop thinking about past "negative" or painful experience will be in the future( fearful of the past painful experiences and imagining it in the future).
What I said was that the link was not" thought stopping" therapy / techniques

Bluesma

BDBinc
reply to post by Bluesma

 

Not sure why we are now on the subject of mantras for BEING.
For being in the now there is no need for a mantra( and no one had recommended one).

I think, like as happened before you may have commented on something I said without regarding the post it was answering, and what it was refering to.
I had originally answered a comment which asked what use is repeating things like "be present in the now"?
(when it goes beyond need to say- we cannot be otherwise!)

I answered that the people who repeat that often, to themselves, and to others, can find it useful for this purpose.

It is a cognitive behavioral therapy technique, which is commonly refered to as "Thought Stopping"- used to stop thoughts deemed undesireable.

That is it "use", to answer the question I responded to.

No one said there was no I.

Then perhaps you have not followed the participation here, and elsewhere, of Itisnowagain, who posts this often. This is also a thought stopping technique for people who deem ego as undesireable.

What is the ‘intent’ you say that is stopped by the past and future being mental constructs only?

Any intent for future. Any goal, expectation, desire.....in order to have any of those, you must project them in mind with a thought about future. Do not think about future, you cannot have any conscious goals.

But be honest- I did not say intents are stopped by future and past being mental constructs- I and the poster I was answering agree that is a "given".... I said that using this technique to constantly remind oneself of that is used to stop constructing those mental constructs consciously .

I was honest.
It is not a given to be fully present in the moment, why all the suffering( and CBT if its a given).

"Thought Stopping" CBT you sited does not stop thoughts.

If you like the false and are afraid of the real, think that all you are is a body/mind the idea of losing your ego is very threatening as you wrongly think the throwing off of the false is loosing your identity, (but its just loosing a false and limiting identity).


Any intent(you meant desires) for the future ?One can have desires in the heart and not know what it is and chase after many things that they think will bring one happiness(thus making them unhappy feeling incomplete and missing something they think will get sometime in the future)
Until you have reached your final goal, (peace/contentment), many desires will arise and you call them "goals" .
(Yes I also think this thread was a personal dig at ITSNOWAGAIN.)

BDBinc

I was honest.

Then you were honestly mistaken.

It is not a given to be fully present in the moment, why all the suffering( and CBT if its a given).

Then we simply disagree. I am quite aware that I am not in the past, nor the future. Not any part of my body. Time machines do not exist (and even if they did, the question would be scrambled, as if you went into the past, it would become your present then). It is as evident to me as the fact that I exist.

But I do realize you are talking metaphorically, actually meaning that ones mind can be focused on thoughts of past and future, instead of intensely focused on the present experience.

Hence- a tool for taking that focus off of thoughts of past and present.

My answer to why repeating this can be useful, despite literally existing in the present already, and always.

"Thought Stopping" CBT you sited does not stop thoughts.

Okay we have analyzed that, so I am not sure why you wish to repeat- except if it somehow bothers you that it is commonly called that term and you feel it is innaccurate- in which case it is not I you should be telling this to- I did not come up with the terminology originally.

Any intent(you meant desires) for the future ?One can have desires in the heart and not know what it is and chase after many things that they think will bring one happiness(thus making them unhappy feeling incomplete and missing something they think will get sometime in the future)
Until you have reached your final goal, (peace/contentment), many desires will arise and you call them "goals" .

My experience is different than yours, I guess. Peace and contentment is not a "goal" for me. It is a constant background. Setting goals (even as little as the intent to walk across a room, or touch my hair) gives movement and definition to that state- making experience possible.

It doesn't take any chasing, unless one chooses to experience the exhileration of running. I relish the process.... the intent, or the goal, just makes the movement possible.

(Yes I also think this thread was a personal dig at ITSNOWAGAIN.)

Well, I didn't start this thread, so I cannot claim to know. I refered directly to Itisnowagain, and to his statements because I was responding to statements here, and some of them were to me.

Bluesma

Itisnowagain

It is not a thought stopping technique. Thinking cannot be stopped. However sometimes thought just ceases to arise for long enough to actually see that there is a space without thought.

Then you must not be an adept of meditation
www.wildmovement.com...



Nor aware of the therapeutic usage of thought stopping techniques
panicdisorder.about.com...

Or it's usage in brainwashing and cult indoctrination
francoistremblay.wordpress.com...

In many cults, a simple technique is taught to people in order to keep away doubt from their minds: every time they have a thought that veers towards asking questions or criticizing something, they are taught to think some phrase over and over, such as “just believe,” in order to drown out that thought. We call these phrase “thought-stoppers.”

These work even better when you are not aware that is what they are being used for.....

edit on 16-9-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)

Saying 'just believe' or 'stop' is not thought stopping because 'I believe' and 'stop' are thoughts.

The thing is most believe it is them that is thinking - if that were true then one could stop thinking at will and would not have to try to stop thought with techniques.
Can you choose the next thought?

No one can live in the moment.
There is only the moment and it is living - it is happening - there is nothing separate from it.

NiNjABackflip
That's your conception of reality, which you've asserted in every single post. It's like saying "everything happens when everything happens" or "it all goes down where it all goes down". What I'm saying is that your assertion is meaningless. It's arbitrary. It is has no use.

Of course it has no use.
The mind wants to use things to it's advantage - it wants to get something out of it but seeing that it is all just happening renders the mind useless and it does not like that.

Itisnowagain

Saying 'just believe' or 'stop' is not thought stopping because 'I believe' and 'stop' are thoughts.

The thing is most believe it is them that is thinking - if that were true then one could stop thinking at will and would not have to try to stop thought with techniques.

As the links explained, and as I explained twice, the technique involves consciously substituting a desireable (positive) thought in the place of an undesireable (negative) thought. This "stops" that particular "negative" thought..... or you can say it "transforms" it, if you prefer "substitutes".

See, I became aware of this not being the appropriate technique for everyone when I met my husband.
He had a very happy and secure childhood, filled with wonder and discoveries and affection.
He cherishes his memories, and his thoughts of past influence his future thoughts, creating repeatingly pleasant "now"s. In his case, he has absolutely no reason to try so hard to rid himself of past, nor avoid creating future!

Bluesma

Itisnowagain

Saying 'just believe' or 'stop' is not thought stopping because 'I believe' and 'stop' are thoughts.

The thing is most believe it is them that is thinking - if that were true then one could stop thinking at will and would not have to try to stop thought with techniques.

As the links explained, and as I explained twice, the technique involves consciously substituting a desireable (positive) thought in the place of an undesireable (negative) thought. This "stops" that particular "negative" thought..... or you can say it "transforms" it, if you prefer "substitutes".

I never used a mantra or any technique to find nothingness.
Thoughts are noisy and can be disturbing - they cloud the vision.
No thought (no concepts/words arising) is very peaceful and all is seen clearly.

I am not saying thought never arises, it does, but the thought is seen to be arising in nothing by nothing - the thought is also known to be nothing.
There is no identification with thought anymore so there is no conflict, no struggle- they just blow through.

Bluesma



But I do realize you are talking metaphorically, actually meaning that ones mind can be focused on thoughts of past and future, instead of intensely focused on the present experience.

Hence- a tool for taking that focus off of thoughts of past and present.

My answer to why repeating this can be useful, despite literally existing in the present already, and always.

Okay we have analyzed that, so I am not sure why you wish to repeat- except if it somehow bothers you that it is commonly called that term and you feel it is innaccurate- in which case it is not I you should be telling this to- I did not come up with the terminology originally.


My experience is different than yours, I guess. Peace and contentment is not a "goal" for me. It is a constant background. Setting goals (even as little as the intent to walk across a room, or touch my hair) gives movement and definition to that state- making experience possible.

It doesn't take any chasing, unless one chooses to experience the exhileration of running. I relish the process.... the intent, or the goal, just makes the movement possible.

If say you are in a panic attack , you are thinking about a past experience (the traumatic past) and imagining it is and will be repeated disliking it intensely (and your body reacts) are you fully present in the NOW. No I am afraid being fully present is not a given.Meaning that the mind can be focused on thoughts of past and future, instead of focused on the present.

You are always awareness but it is not a given that you will flow with life and stay in the moment.

It is not a given to be fully present in the moment, why all the suffering( and CBT if its a given)?

"Thought Stopping" CBT you sited does not stop thoughts was repeated as your critique on being in the NOW was made up of "thought stopping", cults, brainwashing , had something to do with thought stopping which is untrue. They do not have anything to do with thought stopping.

So you say peace and contentment is not a goal for you.

Setting goals doesn't make experience possible, existence makes it possible.
It is this that makes the appearance of movement possible.

reply to post by BDBinc

A lion will not attack his own offspring without hesitation, a man who reflects and imagines, would and does do such a things

I get that to suffer comes from the mind dwelling in the past and future

I reflect and see my young child attempting to cross the street unsupervised in peak hour traffic,
Do I suffer more or less by ignoring projecting the future outcome to intervene and stop him approaching the traffic, like a lion I hesitate and think of the damage that will cause him, then I can reflect imagine and choose whether to allow my action to stop him (preservation of his-self and preservation of my lineage progeny).
Or I can allow it to cross and let fate take its course. After al its his fate, and I suffer for a long time at the death of my loved one? A pain I have seen (through empathy of others that have undergone this) that I imagine (yes, I know to imagine amplifies suffering)

The lion has had a bad hunt and is near starvation does it attack its own offspring after having hesitated, knowing that a death from starvation is more suffering for its cub than if the lion were to kill its offspring outright.
A man who reflects and imagines will hesitate at killing his own offspring and usually take a bullet for his offspring.
A man with empathy who could time travel would stop the first nuclear bomb being sent to his neighbouring country knowing that to allow it to happen will cause untold suffering to his own country and his neighbours countries.
There is pain and then there is suffering. Suffering is to be in constant pain.
Any thoughts?
Great thread, to all, thanks

Living with this belief is not pleasant. Feeling as though you are a thing among other things - that you have a beginning and an end - is why life is full of fear. When you discover what you really are the fear drops away

reply to post by Itisnowagain


aha I got it, (we) (I) (them) (us) are god, source, the universe, indestructible, everlasting

and then straight away a funny thing hapened, thought popped up and : " I think I got it", "did I get it" hesitation, "who are you to think such lofty thoughts" that you dare call yourself god,
And you know damn well its not the devil or god who popped that caveat in but only, mind, again.

I perhaps (scared to use the word think) would suggest it maybe helpful if we introduce the descriptors of id ego into this great learning or teaching thread (to those uncomfortable with the word teaching.)

realistically speaking your mind is nero pathways. So those are made up by the past exerpeicnes and also thoughts of the future. So therefore it would be extremely difficult to live completely in the moment. We should in my opinion. We should live more moment by moment so we enjoy the hear and now and not dwell so much on past and future. which is gone. But as our mind runs it rmembers the past and plans for the future. So some say you should quiet the mind. I like that idea. Just be, and not try and think so much. That way you can actually live in the now.