Upon hearing the newest ranting from the Spanish Prime minister, I am really wondering about European Sovereignty.

It seems that there is groundswell for a EU that is a counterbalance to the United States. Not merely in economic terms, but in military terms. There also seems to be a push for a EU military force, with forces united under the EU banner.

Are European countries slowly and willingly losing their sovereignty? First money, then military, the government, I guess. I can really see European countries more like U.S. states in the near term. The unification of Europe has been a goal of dictators for centuries, but now it seems soon to be a reality.

As an American, I see any loss of sovereignty as a great loss. I always thought that that was one thing that European Countries were quite proud of.

What do Europeans think? The EU seems less and less like what they signed on for. And was there actually voting for the EU by the citizens, or was it heaped upon them by their governments?

Perhaps military power would return European sovereignty. Most Europeans are sick of suffering the SHAME of living under the yoke of American world hegemony

Well volk thats what happens to the weak, they live under the yoke of the strong.

iam a swed and we did vote for the EU but it is not what we singed up for anymore. but still I think that the only way to stop EU to become the like the US is to vote it down on points like a singel currency like we sweds did a i think we would vote against a EU army.
and there is no shame in letting other People do your own work.

lol @ topic...
Funniest thing, I heard all day.

And was there actually voting for the EU by the citizens, or was it heaped upon them by their governments?

Unlike in some countries, you can elect your government here. This means: It represents you :p . If the people did not want European Integration, they would not have voted for a party promoting it.
Other countries had a referendum about joining.
Some joined, others did not.

People in the EU can vote for the European Parliament and thereby directly influence it. But everything the EU Parliament, the EU supreme court etc decide has to be converted to national law.
Sovereignty is not actually lost. What we loose, actually matters not much.
Who needs National Currencies if the Euro is better and easier to travel with?
Who needs customs if you can freely move around the whole EU and live and worky virtually everywhere.
Who needs different laws in every european nation when you can make it more compatible? Here everything we got from the EU Legislative gave the
Individual more Freedom and more Liberties.

The EU ist not the US. More integration makes Europe more stable and more secure.Too much National Sovereignty and less Integration led to all European wars in the last 300 years.
And all these wars were ended by International coalitions. (some minor exceptions)

Well, if you look at military expeditures in percentage over GDP, the only countries to come close to the US are the UK and Greece. European military establishments are generally underfunded and understaffed: moving from a conscription army to a professional army is not easy and most countries are having big problems finding enough motivated people to fill up the ranks (a professional private costs at least three times a conscript) and the money to pay them. Moreover, there are some other problems. Point one, the European defense industry is litterally a mess. Each country has its own industries, each one struggling to survive and asking their own government "an helping hand". Saving jobs (and chairs) requires keeping obsolete factories going, or having FOUR distinct factories churning out the same product. European industries are generally very small and very jealous of each other (reflecting the political situation): bigger companies are taking advantage of this by waiting their budgets to become critical (new EU laws negates state aids) and them buying them out. General Dynamics has gained almost total control of the EU armour production using this tactics. Point two, most states still see their army mainly as a "public order" instrument. Consider that more than half of France's and Italy's standing police forces are military (Gendarmerie and Carabinieri) and that Italy still employs military troops to fight streetcrime in "hot" areas (go there, it seems a little like Venezuela or Colombia). Turning over these forces to EU is seen as absolutely unacceptable. Point three: struggle for power. As you can imagine, each country will do its best to gain a position of power by "pushing" their generals and colonels to top positions...

Originally posted by mwm1331
Well volk thats what happens to the weak, they live under the yoke of the strong.

the strength of the US will be tested as the EU intergrates its members individual military strength, and slowly gathers one, single, military force.

You have the French who will plant trees along the marching routes so that the German soldiers can march in the shade on the way to battle. You have the italians cooking for the German Armies so it might happen... NOT!

Originally posted by GrndLkNatv
You have the French who will plant trees along the marching routes so that the German soldiers can march in the shade on the way to battle. You have the italians cooking for the German Armies so it might happen... NOT!

I'm confused are you giving examples of past European intergration?

Correct. The US isn't doing anything about being competitive with the EU. It wasn't even an issue in the US presidential debates.

Unfortunately the EU and China look like they will be the world's next super powers. The US is bankrupting itself on terrorism. China's economy has quadrupled its GDP since 1978... QUADRUPLED! The EU has possibly the best trade deals in the entire world, and their economy is recovering much faster than the US'.

Not to mention that the EU doesn't alienate other countries; leading to better trust between 3rd world nations and the EU. China alienates a little bit, but its mainly border disputes with Russia and Japan.

The US isn't competitive with the EU or China anymore. They will loose superpower status in 15 years I think, 20 at the latest.

If Turkey were to join the EU that would give a boost to the EU's "soft" power in the mid-east. Which may be important in the coming era of energy wars.

[edit on 11-11-2004 by Volkgeister]

Exactly. Cuturally, Turkey is a mix of european and middle eastern. However, it is a respected Islamic nation by both the middle east and europe. It would form a very important bridge. Adding to the trust. Once the Ukraine and Turkey have joined and are brought up to speed, the EU will truly be a superpower. Everything from protestant to catholic to islam to eastern orthodox, cultures from the serious english and germans and scandinavians to the relatively relaxed spanish, french, and italians. All with ACCEPTANCE, instead of tolerance. Tolerance is a negative word. Culturally, economically, and stability, EU will be the place.

The only downpoint to the EU becoming next Superpower, is that some economists see that the EU is an economy in decline, as, like most of the developed world, it has a declining population. But this can quite easily be reversed if the EU continues to go Eastward, and possibly, as far as Russia. And continues to allow mass immigration.

The possibilites are endless as Europe has no geographical borders, and instead is defined more by its history. It is possible that in the future North African countries will join the EU. Afterall it has been tried by Morroco.

When I said voting for the E.U., I meant was it a ballot referendum...

It's goofy enough that you guys vote for a party and not for a person, but if you voted for a party, and then that party puts people in power, and then those people voted on it, then you guys really, really, didn't vote for it. Don't those in control of the party really control the power, and not the people? It's just the elite in power, and not a true representative republic.

It's like rooting for a team, and not a player.

Like it or hate it, at least in the U.S. I can say my GUY won or lost...


But, back to my initial point...It seems some want a REAL European Union as a country with expansionist goals, and others just want an economic power. It seems to me that the militarists will win. I just think you guys are getting railroaded into something you never wanted, and the momentum for a Single European government is inevitable.

The only ones that might go against it in the end is the UK. Great Britain is quite proud of its history (as it should be) and probably will never give up military power to the continent.

[edit on 11/11/2004 by soulforge]

I thought that Americans voted on policies, and not on personalities

The EU will either ask Britain to leave or,even more probable, Britain will leave on its own accord

Like it or hate it, at least in the U.S. I can say my GUY won or lost...

We don't believe in too much power in a single person. Your President ist a replacement King as was our old Reichspräsident
Clearly the Chanchellor Candidate is important but voting for a party makes the whole thing more consistent. More interesting almost nobody here complains if "his" party lost .

and not the people? It's just the elite in power, and not a true representative republic.

Did you elect your president directly?

It is not as dramatic as it sounds. The Constitution of all member states remains the same. Only then a referendum is needed in germany. But some parties want to introduce referendums into the basic law again.
As a result of the european union (hey another positive result )

But, back to my initial point...It seems some want a REAL European Union as a country with expansionist goals, and others just want an economic power

It will be something balanced in the middle then.

The EU will either ask Britain to leave or,even more probable, Britain will leave on its own accord

I thought it was impossible to leave? They can stop making progress but they won't get out of the contracts they are in. They will have to sign the Constitutional Treaty. It will be changed and changed until everybody accepts it.

[edit on 11/11/04 by tsuribito]

European Union, Military Superpower!?!

- Clearly not by comparison with the USA or Russia. Thankfully.

If one considers the military spending of countries as a 'league table' the USA apparantly out-spends the next 35 countires combined.

The EU is nowhere near that absurd level of pointless waste. Thankfully.

Both of which are, IMO, prime examples of where a gross over-indulgence in 'military power' can lead, a seriously out-of-balance economy fuelling deeply rooted problems funding an ever-growing demand for an unsatisfiable 'need' for 'security' based on never-ending and unquantifiable 'threats'.

(culminating in the absurdity of the US neo-con position that a lack of evidence of an apparant threat is actually a good indication of the reality of that threat....yeah; convoluted and weird I know but there is an interview with a founding neo-con in the BBC's 'The Power of Nightmares' program (part one) - available and thoroughly recommended on Suprnova.org - where that is exactly what is said. Policy has been formulated and funded on such nonsense!)

Actually we Europeans find the US preference for voting for personalities strange and that voting for parties with clearly defined policies much more sensible and democratic.

In the individual European nations we vote for parties on the basis of their manifesto committments. Part of these pledges and attitudes will describe their stance on various things like an EU military. If we like this or not will influence our vote.....therefore we do actually vote on the matter. We do not need a separate EU-wide referendum.

That is not to say there might not be a national referendum to decide a particular nation's national position on the matter.

Some countries might 'opt out' of a particular system or policy (Sweden and the UK did on something really big like the Euro currency for instance).

They (referenda) do happen from time to time on various issues for this reason.







[edit on 11-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

I want an EU to come about just as one day i hope for a world goverment.

I dont see that theres anything to lose.

Does anybody else believe it is possible that in the not too distant future Russia could join the EU?

It seems like the logical step for Russia as it is obviously a power in decline.....What are your thoughts?

I'm not going to say one or the other is better. Just different. Americans and Europeans, just as Asians and Indians, will never share a common worldview, because we live in different worlds.

To understand Americans you need to remember that it has traditionally been all about private ownership. Of cars, of houses, of resources, of capital, of land, of government. The rights of private citizens, by and large, trump those of the government, unless it is a question of safety and harming another's rights. Even then, there is a need of proof before anything is done.

World government.....nope....I don't want someone halfway around the world telling me how much water to have in my toilet, and if can chop down the tree in my back yard, and if I can buy an SUV or not. That was the reason the U.S. broke off in the first place, (you know taxation without representation).

One world government as a democracy means mob rule controlled by the cities, and by China and India. Pretty sure they don't know what my best interests are....

Will never happen, luckily...Too many dictators in the world with too much to lose.

But, the whole EU thing sounds a lot like boiling a frog...

throw it in a boiling pot and it hops out.....but put it in a cool pot, and slowly turn up the heat...and it never knows what is happeneing till it's too late...

Europeans....they just turned on the burner...