Coupons - 50$ off Abortions on Sundays offered at Orlando Womens Center

Originally posted by muse7
Why do you pretend to care about the children so much? If you really did care then you would have no problem with food stamps, social services and accessible and affordable health care for everyone right?

The battle cry of the far left. :shk: Claim that prolifers don't care once the person is born.
Food stamps as a temporary help for people are fine, but not as a way of life.
Social services? I have no problem with social services.
Oh . and Obamacare isn't 'affordable health care' .. that's ridiculous.

STOP DEFLECTING.

reply to post by FlyersFan

There is overwhelming evidence that preborn babies feel pain by the age of 20 weeks and probably much earlier. Preborn babies as young as 18 weeks are routinely anesthetized when undergoing surgery.

That is a flat out lie. Fetus at 20 weeks don't have the capabilities to experience pain. Pain is a complicated mental process that a 20 week old fetus simply doesn't have.

Nevertheless, the medical consensus is that while a fetus may exhibit reflexes before viability, its nervous system is not developed enough to process pain until sometime in the third trimester. In 2010, Britain’s Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists reviewed the available evidence and concluded that the “fetus cannot feel pain before 24 weeks because the connections in the fetal brain are not fully formed.” Further, it found, the fetus, “while in the chemical environment of the womb, is in a state of induced sleep and is unconscious.”

Rosen was the lead author of a 2005 article in The Journal of the American Medical Association reviewing over 2,000 articles on fetal pain. “Pain is an emotional and psychological experience that requires conscious recognition of a noxious stimulus,” Rosen and his colleagues wrote. “Consequently, the capacity for conscious perception of pain can arise only after thalamocortical pathways begin to function, which may occur in the third trimester around 29 to 30 weeks’ gestational age, based on the limited data available.”

“I have every reason to want to believe that the fetus feels pain, that I’ve been treating pain all these years,” he told Paul. “But if you look at the evidence, it’s hard to conclude that that’s true.” The use of anesthesia in fetal surgery, the article concluded, serves purposes unrelated to preventing pain, including keeping the fetus from moving and preventing instinctive stress responses.
www.thedailybeast.com...

reply to post by windword


You must have missed this new piece of legislation that passed through the House of Representatives 6 weeks ago,
Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act

Medical advances in recent decades have provided a greater understanding of the development of unborn children and their capacity to feel pain at various stages of growth. The legislative findings in H.R. 1797 demonstrate that unborn children react to touch by eight weeks after fertilization and respond to painful stimuli after twenty weeks.

And consider this commentary regarding this recent piece of legislation,
Babies Feel Incredible Pain in Late-Term Abortions

The 20-week cut-off time is predicated on scientific evidence that pre-born babies can feel pain early in their pre-born lives and throughout the rest of the gestational period.

Wonder why this bill, based on legislation already enacted in nine states, passed?
Consider Dr. Anthony Levatino's testimony before the Subcommittee on the Constitution on HR 1797 where he,

described in detail what abortions entail during the second trimester of pregnancy. He spoke to a hushed room and explained, step by step, what a Suction D&E procedure was, and how, by the time a woman is that far along in her pregnancy, she "has been feeling her baby kick for the last month."

He told how the baby is literally dismembered during the procedure and then stated clearly for Congress – and the whole world to hear - that "if you refuse to believe that this procedure inflects severe pain on that unborn child, please think again." Dr. Levatino no longer performs abortions.

reply to post by windword

That is a flat out lie. Fetus at 20 weeks don't have the capabilities to experience pain. Pain is a complicated mental process that a 20 week old fetus simply doesn't have.

Tsk tsk, I guess that HOR Subcommittee that passed H.R. 1797 the Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act got it completely wrong because they were bamboozled by the "flat out lies" of scientists and doctors who said after 20 weeks a baby feels incredible pain.

Only if you were there to testify two months ago. Next time perhaps.

reply to post by djr33222


It's not the first time that Republicans have tried to pass laws based on bogus science.

Nevertheless, the medical consensus is that while a fetus may exhibit reflexes before viability, its nervous system is not developed enough to process pain until sometime in the third trimester. In 2010, Britain’s Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists reviewed the available evidence and concluded that the “fetus cannot feel pain before 24 weeks because the connections in the fetal brain are not fully formed.” Further, it found, the fetus, “while in the chemical environment of the womb, is in a state of induced sleep and is unconscious.”

Newborns don't even have purposeful movements, they don't play with their toes and they certainly don't masturbate, little alone a 15 week fetus!

And by the way, that bill didn't pass the Senate, and would never be signed by Obama.

Originally posted by windword
Newborns don't even have purposeful movements, they don't play with their toes and they certainly don't masturbate, little alone a 15 week fetus!

Pregnancy and Parenting - Alertness in the Womb

Parenting - What Babies Learn in the Womb

Though there isn't a whole lot in there to play with, fetuses entertain themselves by sucking on their hands and fingers (especially their thumb, which they discover at about 18 weeks). They also 'walk' around by pushing on the uterine walls with their feet, and yank, pull, and swing their umbilical cord -- they even practice breathing.

All this playing around helps them develop important reflexes they'll need once they're born. Sucking will not only be crucial to taking in food but will also be a source of comfort. And feeling things with their mouth is an important way for babies to explore things. Filling their lungs and moving the diaphragm up and down -- albeit with fluid instead of oxygen -- is also good practice; by the time the baby makes his entrance into the world, he will have learned to breathe on his own.

Doctors believe that pushing off the uterine wall probably helps the fetus develop the ability to reach his mother's breast soon after birth. When a newborn baby is placed on his mother's bare abdomen, his primal instinct starts to kick in: Within the first hour of life, he'll push his way up toward his mother's breast, guided mostly by scent, according to research by Marshall Klaus, M.D., author of Your Amazing Newborn.

Recipes for Life - 5 Ways to Teach Your (preborn) Baby

WEB MD - Babies Learn in the Womb

The main message for new moms is that their babies are listening and learning and remembering during the last stages of pregnancy. Their brains do not wait for birth to start absorbing information,” says study author Patricia K. Kuhl, PhD. She is the Bezos Family Foundation endowed chair in early childhood learning and a professor of speech and hearing sciences at the University of Washington in Seattle.

Family Doctor - Your Babys Development The Third Trimester

What does my baby feel during this trimester?
Your baby begins using the senses of hearing and touch to learn about his or her own body and your surrounding womb. The baby still can’t see much, though. While his or her eyes can detect very bright light, it's too dark to see in the uterus.

Your baby can hear and recognize your voice and might move in response to music.

Your baby uses his or her sense of touch to practice important movements, including grasping and sucking, and he or she may start sucking on his or her thumb.

8 Strange Facts of Pregnancy - boys get erections in the womb
(I'm not surprised).

reply to post by windword


No offense but you have no freaking clue what you are talking about and you come off as extremely dense and bone-headed. You said Republicans have tried to pass laws based on bogus science... Who gives a freak. The article I quoted and linked WAS NOT based on bogus science. Did you even read the testimony from an expert witness, i.e. a doctor who has performed late-term abortions? You conveniently ignored that ...

I'll post it again for your edification. This time try to pay attention.

Testifying before the Subcommittee on the Constitution on HR 1797, Dr. Anthony Levatino, an OB-GYN, described in detail what abortions entail during the second trimester of pregnancy. He spoke to a hushed room and explained, step by step, what a Suction D&E procedure was, and how, by the time a woman is that far along in her pregnancy, she "has been feeling her baby kick for the last month."

He told how the baby is literally dismembered during the procedure and then stated clearly for Congress – and the whole world to hear - that "if you refuse to believe that this procedure inflects severe pain on that unborn child, please think again." Dr. Levatino no longer performs abortions.

-If you want the link to said article refer to my previous post.

Then you post external content without providing a link to the source as if you don't want people to have a contextual basis for some cherry-picked quote you are using to try and validate your argument .

Newborns don't even have purposeful movements, they don't play with their toes and they certainly don't masturbate, little alone a 15 week fetus!

Who the hell was talking about a fetus masturbating? You think some random Republican saying some random crap has anything to do with the expert opinions of scientists and doctors on the reality that 20+ week babies feel pain ?

and would never be signed by Obama

ROFL. I have no doubt about that.

Are you like a stand up comedian in RL or something?

reply to post by FlyersFan


More bogus science. A 20 week old doesn't grasp the needle, or the doctors finger out of curiosity. It'a called fetal grasping reflexes.

Fetus' aren't learning to walk and run in the womb, those kicks are healthy reflexes, not an indication of a bored fetus.

Fetus' show no signs of cognition until 30 - 32 weeks when they begin to experience rapid eye movement, an indication of dreaming.

A non-viable fetus doesn't experience pain, pleasure, curiosity or boredom. That's just more intellectual dishonesty by the pro-life, anti-choice, forced birth movement.

All activities exhibited by the human fetus are unlearned, dependent on the maturation of an inherited neural mechanism.

During the earlier stages of the maturation of the neural mechanism, the activities observed in response to exteroceptive stimuli are, within the limits of biological variation, identical in character, stereotyped, involuntary and predictable.
www.psychosomaticmedicine.org...

reply to post by windword

A non-viable fetus doesn't experience pain, pleasure, curiosity or boredom.

The VAST majority of fetuses ARE viable and do experience pain after 20 weeks...
Only 2% of women get late term abortions because of a non viable fetus or life-threatening birthing risks.

reply to post by djr33222


The American Medical Association and the American Woman's Medical Association are the only "experts" I care about. I couldn't care less what some back woods Republican shill, family doctor from Hodunk, thinks about fetal pain. It's bogus science that flies in the face of conventional medicine.

Further, the possibility of perceived fetal pain does not trump a woman's right to choose what's right for her and her body. If everyone is so concerned about perceived fetal pain. that science says doesn't exist, then there's always morphine or some other drug, so that the dying fetus doesn't feel anything.

The pro-life community is quick to make up evidence and even lie to try to overturn Roe V Wade and get their forced birth agenda met.

How come when it's an abortion it's " She aborted the fetus",
but when it's a Miscarraige it's " She lost the Baby"...Hmmm, Strange one that.,

reply to post by djr33222


Once again, 20 weeks is NOT late term. A late term abortion is AFTER viability around 24-26 weeks. Late term abortions, after viability are NOT elective.

Originally posted by windword
More bogus science.

Don't like it the information? Take it up with the doctors and the folks at WEB MD.

That's just more intellectual dishonesty by the pro-life, anti-choice, forced birth movement.

oh blah blah blah hyperbole and far left deflection rhetoric.

Originally posted by windword
Late term abortions, after viability are NOT elective.

So they are forced on the women? No. They elect to have them.
You didn't read the stats that I posted. did you?
Go back and read the information posted
Abortion provider stated 20% of late term abortions for genetic reasons and 80% for elective reasons.

I am pro-choice, but my benevolence does not extend to clinics where botched late-term abortions may happen. The authorities should take a good look at this clinic.

reply to post by Maslo

There ya' go. Back to the topic. And back to the point.
This clinic has been shut down and the doctor has been up on charges.
They have drive through late term abortions.
They lied to their customer.
And they target poor women with coupons and 'free abortion' days.

Originally posted by LightOrange
It's almost as if it doesn't matter at all.

It's like another day at the spa...

Screw condoms.. I'll just go through the drive through in a few days and suck this baby outta me...

Seems to be as common as drinking a beer, today.

Does anyone not see our morals just taking a flying leep out of a 60 story building, these days?

I'm just blown away on how fast all of the BS today is the norm. At this rate.. I cant wait to see what's coming next year, then the year after that, and the year after that. To hell with reality TV. Just read the news!

reply to post by FlyersFan


When you write.

This clinic has been shut down and the doctor has been up on charges.

That does concern me as it should with everyone.

They have drive through late term abortions.

The terminology used there makes me envision something other than what it actually is. Is that terminology accurate? Surely it isn’t a BK on the way.

They lied to their customer.

Are you talking about how they answered the phone while they were shut down or do you mean something else?

And they target poor women with coupons and 'free abortion' days.

While in poor taste not illegal and nothing to huff and puff about. I doubt a coupon increased the amount of abortions performed in the country but it may have influenced where they were performed.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Please provide a quote that establishes that late term abortions, abortions performed during the 3rd or late into the 2nd trimester, are performed on demand, and not because of risk to the mother or genetic defects. I can't find it.

From you link;

I've tried for months to find a statistic on this from a reputable source but I can't. The CDC (extremely conveniently for pro-choice people) doesn't keep track of abortions after 20 weeks gestational age (the point at which the fetus could possibly survive outside the womb

They have drive through late term abortions.

Please provide proof of this claim.

Originally posted by djr33222
Funny you made this up out of thin air.
Survey of 1,900 American women who had late-term abortions
When asked why they didn't get abortions earlier in their pregnancies they responded thusly:

71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
6% Woman didn't know timing is important
5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion
2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy
11% Other

As you can clearly see at least 87% of women had late-term abortions for willy nilly reasons that were not only elective but due to irresponsibility, lack of good judgement, immaturity, or not being properly informed as regards gestational phases.

edit on 10-8-2013 by djr33222 because: (no reason given)

Did you really post statistics from 1987? 26 years ago.....cultural opinions for what is considered acceptable changes over the years. Late term abortations account for under 1.5% of the abortions in the US. This information you posted is irrelevant to the discussion.

reply to post by FlyersFan


In my opinion:

Abortions should stop/become illegal when the fetus becomes self aware..the problem with that is each baby develops at a different rate based on gentics and environmental influences. That will be impossible to determine with current technology, not saying it isn't possible.

Also, if a clinic or Doctor breaks the law they should lose their license....but unfortunately they get fined and their insurance goes up and nothing ever really happens until they can't afford to pay for their insurance.

Again all my opinion...