Madagascar inhabited long before Austronesian arrival

The toolkit found in the key site of Lakaton'i Anja includes many microliths, as well as some larger tools, made of chert and obsidian. This last must have been brought from far away, as there are no sources of the volcanic glass in Northern Madagascar.

Abstract ;
Past research on Madagascar indicates that village communities were established about AD 500 by people of both Indonesian and East African heritage. Evidence of earlier visits is scattered and contentious. Recent archaeological excavations in northern Madagascar provide evidence of occupational sites with microlithic stone technologies related to foraging for forest and coastal resources

. A forager occupation of one site dates to earlier than 2000 B.C., doubling the length of Madagascar’s known occupational history, and thus the time during which people exploited Madagascar’s environments. We detail stratigraphy, chronology, and artifacts from two rock shelters. Ambohiposa near Iharana (Vohémar) on the northeast coast, yielded a stratified assemblage with small flakes, microblades, and retouched crescentic and trapezoidal tools, probably projectile elements, made on cherts and obsidian, some brought more that 200 km. 14C dates are contemporary with the earliest villages. No food remains are preserved. Lakaton’i Anja near Antsiranana in the north yielded several stratified assemblages. The latest assemblage is well dated to A.D. 1050–1350, by 14C and optically stimulated luminescence dating and pottery imported from the Near East and China. Below is a series of stratified assemblages similar to Ambohiposa. 14C and optically stimulated luminescence dates indicate occupation from at least 2000 B.C. Faunal remains indicate a foraging pattern.

Our evidence shows that foragers with a microlithic technology were active in Madagascar long before the arrival of farmers and herders and before many Late Holocene faunal extinctions. The differing effects of historically distinct economies must be identified and understood to reconstruct Holocene histories of human environmental impact.
Notice that this colonization is also older than the Bantu expansion and therefore these settlers must have been pre-Bantu peoples of East African roots.

forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.nl...

For years many had asked why East Africans didn't colonize Madagascar before the Austronesians that question now seems mute, the fact is Africans have settled virtually all the islands surrounding Africa from the Comoros Archipelago near Madagascar, to the Dahlak Archipelago off the coast of Eritrea, to the Cape Verde Islands and Sao Pao off the Guinea Coast of West Africa to the Canary Islands off Northwest Africa.

Hi


I would imagine that the island was settled fairly early.
I read somewhere , recently, that before modern east Africans got there, the island was inhabited by a small population of cannibal pygmies, much like jarawa of the andamans.

Originally posted by punkinworks10
Hi


I would imagine that the island was settled fairly early.
I read somewhere , recently, that before modern east Africans got there, the island was inhabited by a small population of cannibal pygmies, much like jarawa of the andamans.

That's interesting would like to read-up more on this ,was this in the way of myth/ legends or anthropological /archaeological find??..some one I had spoken to said the current population had in their oral history tales of folks living there before their arrival maybe it's the same people under discussion.

Originally posted by Spider879

For years many had asked why East Africans didn't colonize Madagascar before the Austronesians that question now seems mute, the fact is Africans have settled virtually all the islands surrounding Africa from the Comoros Archipelago near Madagascar, to the Dahlak Archipelago off the coast of Eritrea, to the Cape Verde Islands and Sao Pao off the Guinea Coast of West Africa to the Canary Islands off Northwest Africa.

Very interesting that has been one of the puzzles in archaeology as to where the Africans were and why their arrival in Madagascar was delayed. Thanks for the post.

One question, you make a claim about the Cape Verde and Canary island being colonized by Africans, AFAIK that did not occur unless you are considering the Carthaginians as 'Africans'.

Did you mean Sao Tome instead ofSao Pao? ..... the same applies it was found uninhabited. The finding of no Africans on these islands was one the points against a advanced naval technology of course it could mean that they just didn't colonize the island but did visit them but no archaeological evidence was left.

Originally posted by Spider879

Originally posted by punkinworks10
Hi


I would imagine that the island was settled fairly early.
I read somewhere , recently, that before modern east Africans got there, the island was inhabited by a small population of cannibal pygmies, much like jarawa of the andamans.

That's interesting would like to read-up more on this ,was this in the way of myth/ legends or anthropological /archaeological find??..some one I had spoken to said the current population had in their oral history tales of folks living there before their arrival maybe it's the same people under discussion.

edit on 30-7-2013 by Spider879 because: (no reason given)

It was a pretty obscure article that dealt with the peopleing of the Indian ocean basin. They discussed the negrito populations of the Indian ocean and pacific rim, and their relationship to African pygmies.
In another discussion the idea was raised the west African pygmies may have been a "hunting caste" among a normally sized group. This was based on the fact that they share a language family.

Here are some really good discussions on African linguistics and population genetics.

anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org...



And
anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org...

reply to post by punkinworks10


Perhaps the most famous Bantu Khoisan mix
Thanks for the links,there are passages in it that seemed sinister mainly in the sex bias relationship it used the term marriage which sounds harmless enough,but I read somewhere that the Khoisan were used as slaves to mine gold for the Bantu of Zimbabwe if true then the relationship would be less than pleasant.


Eternal Ancestor Metmuesum lecture

Interesting lecture about the Bantu migrations the relations with the people they met,the almost identical reverence to the Batwa that the Kemetians had shown. The Bwiti trade and social institution that even Europeans had to join if they wanted to trade in the area..include slave trading, and how it's still very much around and governing politics to see who gets oil revenue dollars and who don't..very fascinating lecture.

If you have the time please klik the youtube link for the rest of the lecture

reply to post by Hanslune

One question, you make a claim about the Cape Verde and Canary island being colonized by Africans, AFAIK that did not occur unless you are considering the Carthaginians as 'Africans'. Did you mean Sao Tome instead ofSao Pao? ..... the same applies it was found uninhabited. The finding of no Africans on these islands was one the points against a advanced naval technology of course it could mean that they just didn't colonize the island but did visit them but no archaeological evidence was left.

Cape Varde and Canary Isles colonized by Carthaginians as Africans yes,I have my reasons for saying they were in fact Africans..but that's a whole other thread, Sao Tome.. I heard it from hearsay that folks were visiting the Island but can't really back that up so strike it from the record.

West African water crafts while designed mostly for river transport they at times ventured out to sea and while smaller than Portuguese Caravels non the less challenge them Cadamosto barely missed being killed or captured
In another instance , a ship commanded by Nuno
Tristao attempted to land in the Senegal region. It was attacked
by African fighters in canoes, and the crew of the ship was
wiped out. And in 1447, a Danish raider commanding a Portuguese
ship was killed, along with most of his crew, when local African
boats attacked.

Although African vessels -- mostly canoes -- were not designed
for high-seas navigation, they were fully capable of protecting
the coast, even in the 15th century. As a result, in 1456, the
king of Portugal dispatched his ambassador, Diogo Gomes, to
negotiate treaties of peace and trade with the African rulers
along the coast. From that point on, and for 400 years, the
African slave trade was conducted as a matter of international
commerce among equals.

These riverine crafts were huge affairs with and without sails capable of carrying a hundred men,the Mansas often shipped their armies including horses on those craft. matter of fact Chris Columbus reported seeing these crafts way out in the Atlantic destination unknown.

reply to post by Spider879


Of course you would

Could you cite Columbus encountering African shipping on his voyages. He did encounter a Taino canoe at one point.

Question: lets image there are two twin brothers one born say three hours later than the other at a point around the great bitter lake where the arbitary Africa/Asia border line takes place. If his mother moved a bit so that first was born in Africa and his brother was born in Asia would and they were semitic blood would you consider the first brother an African and the second an 'Asian'?

One last question where the Greek who settled Cyrene also Africans?

reply to post by Hanslune


Hi Hanslune bare with me I will make a post about the Carthaginians and their African connections even before they leave the Levant this will side tract this thread way off course.

ORIGINAL NARRATIVES OF EARLY AMERICAN HISTORY
REPRODUCED UNDER THE AUSPICES OF THE AMERICAN HISTORICAL ASSOCIATION General Editor, J. FRANKLIN JAMESON, Ph.D., LL.D. DIRECTOR OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HISTORICAL RESEARCH IN THE CARNEGIE INSTITUTION OF WASHINGTON THE NORTHMEN, COLUMBUS, AND CABOT 985-1503

Certain principal inhabitants of the island of Santiago came to see them and they said that to the south-west of the island of Huego, which is one of the Cape Verde Islands distant 12 leagues from this, may be seen an island, and that the King Don Juan was greatly inclined to send to make discoveries to the south-west, and that canoes had been found which start from the coast of Guinea and navigate to the west with merchandise.

www.gutenberg.org...

Gotta go will link later..

reply to post by Spider879


Thanks yes the quote you have doesn't show up in the book you linked to so a more precise link would be appreciated when you return. I tried to find that quote in Morrison and Thacher but was unsuccessful.

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by Spider879

 

Thanks yes the quote you have doesn't show up in the book you linked to so a more precise link would be appreciated when you return. I tried to find that quote in Morrison and Thacher but was unsuccessful.

edit on 31/7/13 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)

Sorry that was indeed a pain in butt to find but if you scroll down to [326] you will find it, there is also some interesting circumstantial evidence further down concerning what he heard and found on his 3rd voyage in the Indies itself.

reply to post by Spider879


Thanks yes that it

Certain principal inhabitants of the island of Santiago came to see them and they said that to the south-west of the island of Huego, which is one of the Cape Verde Islands distant 12 leagues from this, may be seen an island, and that the King Don Juan was greatly inclined to send to make discoveries to the south-west, and that canoes had been found which start from the coast of Guinea and navigate to the west with merchandise

You may wish to research the meaning of Guinea at that time. It covers an area that covers a much larger aspect then than it does today. However you should check to see if the Spanish and Portuguese called the same area by that name as did the English



So the west of this would be along the coast, which makes sense, and perhaps more common sense based than African canoes crossing the Atlantic to trade.

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by Spider879

 

Thanks yes that it

Certain principal inhabitants of the island of Santiago came to see them and they said that to the south-west of the island of Huego, which is one of the Cape Verde Islands distant 12 leagues from this, may be seen an island, and that the King Don Juan was greatly inclined to send to make discoveries to the south-west, and that canoes had been found which start from the coast of Guinea and navigate to the west with merchandise

You may wish to research the meaning of Guinea at that time. It covers an area that covers a much larger aspect then than it does today. However you should check to see if the Spanish and Portuguese called the same area by that name as did the English

So the west of this would be along the coast, which makes sense, and perhaps more common sense based than African canoes crossing the Atlantic to trade.

Much thanks that is something to look into but I like I said there is circumstantial evidence on Columbus's 3rd voyage that put these trades men in the Caribbean itself

Wednesday, July 4, he ordered sail made from that island in which he says that since he arrived there he never saw the sun or the stars, but that the heavens were covered with such a thick mist that it seemed they could cut it with a knife and the heat was so very intense that they were tormented, and he ordered the course laid to the way of the south-west, which is the route leading from these islands to the south, in the name, he says, of the Holy and Indivisible Trinity, because then he would be on a parallel with the land of the sierra of Loa327-1 and cape of Sancta Ana in Guinea, which is below the equinoctial line, where he says that below that line of the world are found more gold and things of value; and that after, he would navigate, the Lord pleasing, to the west, and from there would go to this Española, in which route he would prove the theory of the King John aforesaid; and that he thought to investigate the report of the Indians of this Española who said that there had come to Española from the south and south-east, a black people who have the tops of their spears made of a metal which they call guanin, of which he had sent samples to the Sovereigns to have them assayed, when it was found that of 32 parts, 18 were of gold, 6 of silver and 8 of copper.

www.gutenberg.org... [327]

One thing most folks do not take into account is the fact that these people were long distance traders especially the Mandingo for not only did they traverse the sandy waste of the Sahara they did so using the astrolabe,astronomy is but one of the courses given in their center of learning at Timbuktu,we know from records that atleast two massive organized attempts were made about two centuries earlier to cross the Atlantic.

Originally posted by Spider879

Much thanks that is something to look into but I like I said there is circumstantial evidence on Columbus's 3rd voyage that put these trades men in the Caribbean itself

Except no trades goods have been found in the Americas from Africa and vice versa and the lack of evidence that Africans were conducting maritime trade. A piroque is nice for coastal voyages - not so much for deep sea when you have little experience. The Polynesian could do it because they had extensive deep sea experience.

But I guess that didn't work and those fleet evaporated before the European showed up, too bad but there should be evidence of a ship building site - so where is it?

I guess you will next throw at us Van Sertima's story about Abu-Bakari fleet and Columbus sighting darked skinned dudes?

Originally posted by Hanslune

Originally posted by Spider879

Except no trades goods have been found in the Americas from Africa and vice versa and the lack of evidence that Africans were conducting maritime trade. A piroque is nice for coastal voyages - not so much for deep sea when you have little experience. The Polynesian could do it because they had extensive deep sea experience.

But I guess that didn't work and those fleet evaporated before the European showed up, too bad but there should be evidence of a ship building site - so where is it?

I guess you will next throw at us Van Sertima's story about Abu-Bakari fleet and Columbus sighting darked skinned dudes?

Yes I will do just that, but first have you read his book,he layed out a number of plants and transplants that was present before Columbus, not only that but the era is really close to the European contact era where such items could be obscured, Van Sertima was not the first to break the news of Abu Bakari's fleet that was done by Basil Davidson in his work lost cities of Africa as a side note,for If you are interested in the line of succession of Mali's kings you will have to deal with the rise of Kankan Musa or Mansa Musa and how he came to be in power take note he is proclaimed as Forbes richest man ever..he literally put Mali on the map for the next 400yrs.


www.huffingtonpost.com...
As to where his fleet was built perhaps further research is pending but we do know he leave his royal residence at Niani and encamped on the coast to oversee the final preparation.most likely on the Gambia.

Virtually all that is known of Abubakari II is from the scholar Al-Umari during Kankan Musa I's historic hajj to Mecca. While in Egypt, Musa explained the way that he had inherited the throne after the abdication of the previous ruler. He explained that in 1310, the emperor financed the building of 200 vessels of men and another 200 of supplies to explore the limits of the sea that served as the empire's western frontier. The mission was inconclusive, and the only information available on its fate came from a single boat whose captain refused to follow the other ships once they reached a "river in the sea" and a whirlpool. According to Musa I, his predecessor was undeterred and launched another fleet with himself as head of the expedition. In 1311, the previous ruler temporarily ceded power to Musa, then serving as his kankoro-sigui or vizier, and departed with a thousand vessels of men and a like number of supplies. After the emperor failed to return, Musa became emperor.

Btw this move by Abubakri did not endear him to the griots and historians from his time until this day he is remembered as self absorbed because neglected the business of the empire for his own dream.
Now we knew an attempt was made, some 200yrs later Columbus was reporting on their probable presence in the Americas,did they saw what they believed to be out of place Africans in the Americas yes they did and they reported on it are there holes needed to be filled yes the picture is far from complete.

Originally posted by Hanslune

Originally posted by Spider879

Much thanks that is something to look into but I like I said there is circumstantial evidence on Columbus's 3rd voyage that put these trades men in the Caribbean itself

Except no trades goods have been found in the Americas from Africa and vice versa and the lack of evidence that Africans were conducting maritime trade. A piroque is nice for coastal voyages - not so much for deep sea when you have little experience. The Polynesian could do it because they had extensive deep sea experience.

But I guess that didn't work and those fleet evaporated before the European showed up, too bad but there should be evidence of a ship building site - so where is it?

I guess you will next throw at us Van Sertima's story about Abu-Bakari fleet and Columbus sighting darked skinned dudes?

Yes Afrocentrics do have a one track mind!

reply to post by Spider879


The original inhabited of the Canary Islands were the Guanches, word on the street is that they were African people

Originally posted by LUXUS

Originally posted by Hanslune

Originally posted by Spider879

Much thanks that is something to look into but I like I said there is circumstantial evidence on Columbus's 3rd voyage that put these trades men in the Caribbean itself

Except no trades goods have been found in the Americas from Africa and vice versa and the lack of evidence that Africans were conducting maritime trade. A piroque is nice for coastal voyages - not so much for deep sea when you have little experience. The Polynesian could do it because they had extensive deep sea experience.

But I guess that didn't work and those fleet evaporated before the European showed up, too bad but there should be evidence of a ship building site - so where is it?

I guess you will next throw at us Van Sertima's story about Abu-Bakari fleet and Columbus sighting darked skinned dudes?

Yes Afrocentrics do have a one track mind!

Unlike Hanslume who gives honest critiques that I find useful and can learn from I have come to realize that YOU! haven't picked-up a book in years and refused to do so especially for works that YOU like to critique Rabid Eurocentrist have no mind.

Originally posted by LUXUS
reply to post by Spider879

 

The original inhabited of the Canary Islands were the Guanches, word on the street is that they were African people

YEEEsss they were African people they came from North West Africa but they also have multiple additional layers the last being Iberian..can you say E1b1b or E-M215??.. clades U6 and others are represented.

reply to post by Spider879


Yes I have read that in particular Basil Davidson book the lost cities of Africa.

Here's a question for you what is the primary source for the information on that Abu?

I guess you've never seen what people look like who live without clothes or hats on their upper bodies, nor do you seem to think about body paint and body dying.

Africans in Americas before Columbus? Nope, no evidence of it but it is possible but we don't evidence to support it.

Another curious thing is neither Portuguese or the Spanish encountered Africans at sea, nor villages that were trade ports nor items from such trade on either continent, nor native Americans in Africa or Africans in the Americas.

It would seem this trade stopped just when the Columbus trips began!

I would suspect that Columbus and his sailors would have recognized Africans vs Asian looking native Americans.

Since I know where you are going - having seen this same scenario before I'll conduct a pre-barrage mission, since I think you are heading next to Olmec claims.

Robbing Native American Cultures: Van Sertima's Afrocentricity and the Olmecs

Repeat of previous question

Question: lets image there are two twin brothers one born say three hours later than the other at a point around the great bitter lake where the arbitary Africa/Asia border line takes place. If his mother moved a bit so that first was born in Africa and his brother was born in Asia would and they were semitic blood would you consider the first brother an African and the second an 'Asian'?

One last question where the Greek who settled Cyrene also Africans?

I'm trying to determine if you are a geographist or colourist