God Hardened Pharaoh's Heart

The Old Testament is a real hoot sometimes ....

Lets take a look at Exodus .... (supposedly) ... The Israelites have been enslaved for 400 years in Egypt. They are treated horribly and suffer incredibly. They pray and pray and pray for release. For 400 years, God ignores their pleas. He leaves them suffering. Then one day Moses comes along. God decides Moses is His fella and God instructs Moses to go to Pharaoh with signs and wonders that will tell Pharaoh that God wants the Israelites to be set free. God sends Moses with dire warnings that if Pharaoh doesn't listen, then bad things will happen to the Egyptians. So Moses does as God commands, but at the same time, God says he'll harden the heart of Pharaoh so that Pharaoh won't listen.

So ... WHAT IS THE POINT? God is fighting with Himself?? One part of God is sending signs and wonders and saying 'let the Israelites go' ... and another part of God is hardening Pharaoh's heart so it won't listen to what the other part of God is saying?? All the Egyptians will suffer horribly because God sends warnings but also 'hardens Pharaoh's heart' ... so the Egyptians have no mercy and no hope of escaping the evils that are about to fall on them .. no chance to change or accept the warnings because God hardens hearts?? Really??

Some of the many quotes showing the back and forth in Exodus ...

**********************************
Exodus 3: 7-8 But the Lord said, "I have witnessed the affliction of my people in Egypt and have heard their cry of complaint against their slave drivers so I know well what they are suffering. Therefore I have come down to rescue them from the hands of the Egyptians and lead the out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey, the country of the Chanaanites Hethites, Amorrites, Pherezites, Hevites and Jebusites.

Exodus 3:19-21 "Yet I know that the king of Egypt will not allow you to go unless he is forced. I will stretch out my hand, therefore, and smite Egypt by doing all kinds of wondrous deeds there. After that he will send you away. I will even make the Egyptians so well disposed toward this people that, when you leave, you will not go empty handed.

Exodus 6: 6 Therefore, say to the Israelites: I am the Lord. I will free you from the forced labo of the Egyptians and will deliver you from their slavery.

Exodus 6:10-12 Then the Lord said to Moses "Go and tell Pharao , King of Egypt, to let the Israelites leave his land" But Moses protested to the Lord "If the Israelites would not listen to me, how can it be that Pharao will listen to me, poor speaker that I am"

Exodus 7:3 Yet I will make Pharao so obstinate that,despite the many signs and obstinate that, despite the many signs and wonders that I will work in the land of Egypt, he will not listen to you. Therefore I will lay my hand on Egypt and by great acts of judgement I will bring the hosts of my people, The Israelites, out of the land of Egypt.

Exodus 9:12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.
**********************************

Side note ... frankly the quote by God saying .... "I will even make the Egyptians so well disposed toward this people that, when you leave, you will not go empty handed" .... Sounds like Moses giving the Israelites a nod that they can loot and engage in thuggery to shake down Egyptians for their goods and money. Revenge of slaves escaping ... maybe. Or maybe just old fashioned shake down theft. There is archeological evidence that supports that the Israelites weren't slaves at all but were instead poorly paid migrant and/or foreign workers who were looked down upon in Egypt because of their race. LIke black field workers back in the 1920's or 1930s in the deep south in the USA.

Different thoughts on this ...
Jewish Ideas Daily - Israelites WERE Slaves in Egypt
Reform Judaism - The Stories of Israelites Being Slaves in Egypt are Fiction
Wheat and Tares - Israelites were NOT Slaves to the Egyptians.
Haaretz - Were Jews Ever Really Slaves in Egypt or is it a Passover Myth?

My thought ... Exodus was written from the viewpoint of those who wanted to glorify the Israelites. They were probably unionized workers of a lower foreign class in Egypt and they revolted ... and their leader Moses gave them the freedom to loot and shake down the Egyptians of their wealth before they all quit and left to go to the 'promised land'. That's why Pharaoh sent his chariots (police) after the Israelites when they left Egypt. Not because those people were run away slaves. But because those people were thieves. Why else would Pharaoh let them go and then suddenly change his mind ... it's because Pharaoh found out that the Israelites left with a pile of loot. And no, I have no proof of that ... it's just the thought that I have that makes sense.

The reason God hardened Pharaoh's heart is because he wanted to punish him and all of Egypt. This is what I get from reading the Hebrew bible I owned. Which is more traditional and I feel has a more original understanding of the bible. The early Jews wanted to present their characters as the "good guys" the protagonist who should follow God and do all the commandments instructed to follow. The antagonist were usually enemies of Israel or Jews who lacked faith.

As a skeptic I'm more critical of the content of the bible because it seems the stories were made up and influenced by other myths. Which in turn created the foundation of early Judaism. Stories like Abraham and the early Jews slavery in Egypt gives them history and destiny. Where they would soon live in the promise land. Which was promised by God.

Gentile characters in the bible were usually paper cut. Where their ways were sinful and evil. With the Jews being slaves in Egypt the story was a perfect way in explaining why the Jews must submit to God and allow him to run their lives.

Hopefully this makes sense.

reply to post by FlyersFan


God hardening Pharaoh's heart just means that God knew that he won't listen and that God is always in control and even the hardening of hearts happen because God lets it happen even when He has the power to change it but He won't as He has given humans the free choice to accept or deny God.

Pharaoh is the peak example of what a tyrant can be and he is a lesson/warning for anyone who tries to walk in his footsteps because then a similar fate waits for the tyrants.

Its interesting how you paint Pharaoh as an innocent/victimised ruler. Could it be because you are fine with any present pharaohic government?
Obviously the israelites wrote the accounts in OT to glorify themselves and they were not the most God conscious bunch.
The same accounts speak of them as "choosen people" which was true as they were choosen to make a covenant but it was two sided deal based on their actions not a covenant with a race/tribe based on just birth!
Some christians are ready to lick the feet of the "choosen people"! I have not seen any humans degrading themselves like that and believing that they are obeying/pleasing God!!

Wow op, lots of assumptions and assumptions, selling something?

"Ex 8:15: “But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said.”


Ex 8:31-9:1 “And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; He removed the swarms of flies from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people. Not one remained. But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.

The first few time Pharaoh is allowed to act according to his own inclination and he hardens his own heart, refusing to repent."

Pure Calvinism, its not pure Christianity
www.letusreason.org...

Originally posted by logical7
Its interesting how you paint Pharaoh as an innocent/victimised ruler. Could it be because you are fine with any present pharaohic government?!

1 - Knock it off and stick to the topic. :shk:
2 - No I did not paint him as an innocent/victimized ruler. You are absurd. I simply stated that the Pharaoh would have had to send the police after people who mass looted. That in no way is a comment on his rule or anything else.
3 - My premise is that the Jews were low paid/low rent workers who went on strike and left Egypt, stealing and looting as they left and that the Exodus was written by people sympathetic to the Jews. How on Earth you can have any snotty issues with that is really, really bizzare, even for you.

Obviously the israelites wrote the accounts in OT to glorify themselves and they were not the most God conscious bunch.

1 - Obviously.
2 - Using your (ill)logic, ..... it's interesting how you paint Pharaoh as an innocent/victimized ruler. Could it be because you are fine with any present pharaohic governments? :shk: See how stupid that sounds?

Some christians are ready to lick the feet of the "choosen people"!

Yes. And many Muslims are ready to run the Jews through with a sword or blow them up with a bomb because those jews are supposedly sub-human apes and pigs. The truth is in the middle. They are people, just like everyone else.

ON TOPIC

Originally posted by logical7
God hardening Pharaoh's heart just means that God knew that he won't listen ..

That's NOT what it says. It doesn't say ... God told Moses that Pharaoh wouldn't listen. It says that God took an action and purposely hardened Pharaohs heart. That's VERY different than saying that someone simply wont' listen.

Originally posted by borntowatch
Wow op, lots of assumptions and assumptions, selling something?

And no ... the opening post is direct quotes from scripture as well as links to modern day historians and archaeologists who have proof that the Israelites were not slaves in Egypt. And many of these people are actually Jewish who are saying this.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by borntowatch
Wow op, lots of assumptions and assumptions, selling something?

Coming from you ... that's a joke. talk about selling absurdities ... and assumptions Your wild self interpretations of scripture .. starting here You might want to check yourself out first before you throw around the accusation of 'trying to sell something' .

And no ... the opening post is direct quotes from scripture as well as links to modern day historians and archaeologists who have proof that the Israelites were not slaves in Egypt. And many of these people are actually Jewish who are saying this.

I think you may have me confused, I believe Mary was Christs mother, no issues, ooops
Born to watch is me
Born to sin is some peculiarly funny oddball ('')
easy mistake

and as for slaves, here is a bible verse and a link:
Now there arose a new king over Egypt who did not know Joseph, and he said to his people, ‘Look, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we’…Therefore they set taskmasters over them to afflict them with their burdens…And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage… (Exodus 1:8-14).

creation.com...


But I wasnt so concerned about slaves, I was contending God hardening Pharaohs heart, Pharaoh hardened his own heart first
"Ex 8:15: “But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said.”


Ex 8:31-9:1 “And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; He removed the swarms of flies from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people. Not one remained. But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.

The first few time Pharaoh is allowed to act according to his own inclination and he hardens his own heart, refusing to repent."


No biggy though, I just struggle with Fundy calvinists

reply to post by borntowatch

*on bended knee * heartfelt apologies for confusing the two of you.
SImilar names .... And yes .. he's an oddball ....

God didn't harden the heart of a righteous king.

The Pharaoh was extremely arrogant and full of himself, to the extent that he claimed to be "god".

Moses actually called on the Pharaoh to repent and be forgiven. But the Pharaoh in his pride, rejected the call to repentance and continued in his prideful sin in addition to oppressing the Israelites.

So one it could be said that the Pharaoh had hardened his own heart first.

reply to post by FlyersFan

2 - No I did not paint him as an innocent/victimized ruler. You are absurd. I simply stated that the Pharaoh would have had to send the police after people who mass looted. That in no way is a comment on his rule or anything else.
3 - My premise is that the Jews were low paid/low rent workers who went on strike and left Egypt, stealing and looting as they left and that the Exodus was written by people sympathetic to the Jews. How on Earth you can have any snotty issues with that is really, really bizzare, even for you

its not sure why he sent his army after them, either what you assume is true or he changed his mind to let them go or they had left without his permission.
How could pharaoh kill their male babies if they were just low paid workers? That incidence suggests that they were slaves at his mercy, a class of slaves for all kind of works and lower in status than the egyptian people.
I am not trying to defend either israelites or pharaoh, i am just questioning your assumptions.

Exodus was obviously written by biased people. Its very simple, when history is written by people who were involved in the events, they magically appear saintly in the accounts!
You rightly say that the truth is something in the middle.
If there were accounts written by egyptian people, they would no doubt label israelites as rebels/thugs/thieves or the recent favourite TERRORISTS!

I am just wondering why you are doing what egyptians may have done?

Originally posted by logical7
Its very simple, when history is written by people who were involved in the events, they magically appear saintly in the accounts!

Lol right, unless said history is written in your particular holy books right?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
So one it could be said that the Pharaoh had hardened his own heart first.

But that's not what it says. It says GOD hardened the heart of Pharaoh.

Originally posted by logical7
How could pharaoh kill their male babies if they were just low paid workers?

There is no evidence that ever actually happened. There are no historical accounts ... no forensic evidences .. nothing. Only the story of it happening which was written by pro-jewish sources in Exodus.

I am just wondering why you are doing what egyptians may have done?

Oh please. I'm looking at the forensic evidence. There is no evidence that supports the
notion that the jews were enslaved in Egypt. None. If you look at the links provided, it shows
that many scholars - both jewish and others - come to the same conclusion that I have.

Looking at the evidence instead of automatically buying into an ancient story is hardly someone 'acting like an ancient egyptian'.

reply to post by FlyersFan


I think you misunderstood. There was no theft. These items were given to the Israelites by the Egyptians.

Exodus 12:36

36 And the Lord gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent unto them such things as they required. And they spoiled the Egyptians.

Originally posted by FlyersFan


So ... WHAT IS THE POINT? God is fighting with Himself?? One part of God is sending signs and wonders and saying 'let the Israelites go' ... and another part of God is hardening Pharaoh's heart so it won't listen to what the other part of God is saying?? All the Egyptians will suffer horribly because God sends warnings but also 'hardens Pharaoh's heart' ... so the Egyptians have no mercy and no hope of escaping the evils that are about to fall on them .. no chance to change or accept the warnings because God hardens hearts?? Really??

YHWH = The first war profiteer.

Keep in mind that this came during a time when the patriarchal construct was still eradicating any semblance of goddess worship. The Egyptians were just one culture in a long line of many who the bible attempted to discredit through literature. If Pharaoh said "Ok, cool... go ahead and go with my blessings", people would not think poorly of their polytheistic religious culture so the Hebrew god had to play both sides like Bruce Willis in Last Man Standing.

reply to post by FlyersFan


When God hardened the Pharaoh's heart, it was to prove his powers over all of the other gods of Egypt in the sight of the Israelites and the Egyptians, as a sign to all of the people.

Here are the 10 plagues and their purpose...

1st plague - turning the Nile to blood, was a judgment against Apis, the god of the Nile, Isis, goddess of the Nile, and Khnum, guardian of the Nile. The Nile was also believed to be the bloodstream of Osiris, who was reborn each year when the river flooded.

2nd plague - bringing frogs from the Nile, was a judgment against Heqet, the frog-headed goddess of birth.

3rd plague - gnats, was a judgment on Set, the god of the desert.

4th plague - flies, was a judgment on either Re or Uatchit, who were both depicted as flies.

5th plague - the death of livestock, was a judgment on the goddess Hathor and the god Apis, who were both depicted as cattle.

6th plague - boils, was a judgment against several gods over health and disease (Sekhmet, Sunu, and Isis).

7th plague - hail, attacked Nut, the sky goddess, Osiris, the crop fertility god, and Set, the storm god.

8th plague - locusts, again focused on Nut, Osiris, and Set.

9th plague - darkness, was aimed at the sun god, Re, who was symbolized by Pharaoh himself.

10th plague - the death of the firstborn males, was a judgment on Isis, the protector of children.


Read more: www.gotquestions.org...

Originally posted by Prezbo369

Originally posted by logical7
Its very simple, when history is written by people who were involved in the events, they magically appear saintly in the accounts!

Lol right, unless said history is written in your particular holy books right?

my Holy Book does not have historical stories for any reason but to give moral/spiritual lessons and its unwise to dig into things that don't mean much just for the sake of it.
It would be the same as reading the story of the rabbit and the tortoise and rather than learning "slow and steady wins the race" going in and putting efforts in finding "evidence" if that race really happened!!

reply to post by FlyersFan

There is no evidence that ever actually happened. There are no historical accounts ... no forensic evidences .. nothing. Only the story of it happening which was written by pro-jewish sources in Exodus.

absence of evidence does not equate with evidence of absence.

If you want forensic evidence before believing any accounts then you must be consistent in it in other areas too...

Anyways i still don't get the purpose of the OP. what are you suggesting?/whats your stand?

Are you suggesting that as there is no evidence, it must have not happened? I answered that in the 1st sentence of this post.
Beyond that nobody can be anymore certain one way or the other.

btw do you accept the rest of the account to be true? They escaping and then wandering the desert for a long time etc?
If you do accept it as true then there is a way to explain that they were indeed slaves and oppressed enough to want to leave low paying jobs yet some job and shelter in exchange of decades of wandering in the desert!