The Language of Vampyr

I'm sure someone posted this already but can someone attempt to break this down for me.



lingvoforum.net...



Ayndryl

Гость


### Январь 10, 2011, 21:49

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antbez,

Eddag-1240 and Elyam-2200 are not programs. They are the label that we assign to the output, once the system reaches a stable minimum. The system we are developing is called "Nodespaces", and it is coupled to a statistical mechanical program called "Vectorial".

What they do is implementing the Ising model, and all-time classic of statistical mechanical modelling. Originally, it was proposed to explain ferromagnetism, but the model is so powerful that it has over the years been adapted and applied to the study of a variety of phenomena, including language contact and language drift. "Vectorial" is a dynamical system, that is, a rule that given one point in a state space, it tells us where it is going to be a unit of time later. The basic mathematical model is thus a manifold M, a map f:M-->M and a function s:M-->R.

Now, M represents all the possible states of the system, while f represents the time evolution, a rule that determines what is the state one unit of time later. For many practical cases, after some time the system converges to a subset of M of low dimension, usually called the "attractor". The partition function is controlled by a so-called critical exponent (beta). The numbers 1240 and 2200 means that we ran the system for beta=2.2 and beta=1.240. Note that a small change in the critical exponent yields a totally different language for the same input.

Your question on how are they connected with language can now be answered: as we have records of, say, Old Welsh, Middle Welsh, and Modern Welsh, then we have a traceable history of how Welsh changed. This is our Welsh manifold M. The rules defining each state is given, roughly, by linguists (phonology rules, consonantal conservation, pallatization, etc.). Therefore, you can code the system to apply those rules to Modern Welsh and see what comes out. Of course, human brain is not a logical system: it is a highly complex and strange system. Nobody knows why a given change started operating in a given language, or why speakers gradually start modifying the language. Also, cultural and cognitive factors must be called for. This means we are facing a system that cannot be specified in an algorithmic way, neither using a rule-based approach. You need to use statistical mechanical maths.

Alexandra,

You pose the question of whether is it possible the transformation of Welsh into a language so different and unintelligible for today's speakers during a period so short as sixty-five years. How much time does a language take to change depends on many extra-linguistic factors. Isolation, the foundation effect, language contact, speakers' fragmentation in space, even religious, political, and social factors do all play a role. There is no definite answer to why some languages die, or to why they change the way they do.

But no, I'm sure 65 years is too a short time lapse for a radical change as the one you notice from Welsh to Weddag-2075. But the intriguing question is this: though they are structurally different, and lexically unrelated, what's the "Welshness" in Weddag-2075 as to make some people believe it is some sort of Welsh?


Demetrius,

I totally agree with the conclusion of the article, that is: "Russian, as well as any other language, despite it’s obvious and unquestionable virtues, is by no means an ideal mirror for reflecting reality". In fact, there is a school of thought that holds that language "infects" reality.

You state that you you don't believe that feelings and words are directly related. Margaret Magnus, and the school of phonosemantics -aka sound symbolism-, has made interesting experiments with students to which she presents images of objects and ask them to label them with words. Some of them are impossible objects, or even non-existent, and the students are required to invent words for those objects. Surprisingly, there is a preference for using words with specific phonemes for certain objects. Her dissertation is available in the internet (it is titled Phonosemantics: What's in a word?).

Your statement related to the dependency of words on culture has been, and is, thoroughly researched by Anna Wierzbicka. You can find her books in the internet, too. My example on Russian was taken from her. Your question on whether there is any proof that the feelings of a Lakota and a Russian are different in any way has a positive answer: there are proofs. There are cognitive tests that consistently prove a speaker of a certain language perceives reality in a different way than a speaker of another language. I know this sounds somehow shocking, but it is that way.

I don't understand your last statement: "language doesn’t neccessarily correspond to our feelings". Unless a speaker wishes to lie, we have to accept that anything that it is said it is also meant, I mean, you say what you mean, otherwise communication would be impossible. Your article makes the point: there are feelings for which we do not have words. There are emotions for which we have no words. But the results from Wierzbicka's research is even more radical: there are speakers from a certain language that do have emotions that speakers of another language do not. This is baffling, but true.


NB: if anyone here find it difficult to get the books, I will be pleased to post the links.



(HERE IS ANOTHER ONE OF AYNDRYL POSTING ON PAGE 2 OF THAT LINK I PUT UP. FURTHER EXPLAINING)



Ayndryl

Гость


### Декабрь 31, 2010, 10:08

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Hmm... but the idea was not to generate a cryptic language of some sort.
The idea was this:

- to analyze syntactic and morphological drift for a given set of
languages, and to explore whether such a drift produces a semantic drift
correlate.

In order to do so, we designed a software, called Nodespaces, that acts
as a genetic algorithm that takes as input a given language and then, by
stimulated annealing, subjects the language to a set of stochastic
rules. If we consider the language as a complex adaptive system, by
changing the boundary conditions the language is forced to adapt itself,
thus changing its syntactic structure and its morphological internal
structure.

Obviously, a boundary condition was this: change as you wish, but the
change must yield a syntactically and phonetically coherent language.
The result shows that language is also a dissipative structure, one that
can finally derive in a total colapse of communication, unless you
impose some restrictive superstructure upon it. We found it was then
better to introduce the self-organizing constraints into the system.

And the experiment shows that in order for you to obtain such a
language, the system must, of necessity, include the speaker.

Though it seems obvious that language and speaker are inseparable,
sometimes linguists forget this, in particular when they study ancient
languages. We wanted to find an answer to this question: can we think of
the Russian language regardeless of the Russian speaker? That is: can
anyone speak Russian without feeling Russian?

So far, the answer is "No". Sure you can be a Lakota. Sure you can learn
Russian. Sure you can get a total mastering of the Russian language. But
you will never "feel" like a Russian. So the question arises: what do we
mean by being Russian or Lakota? And if there was just one
protolanguage, what made a given speaker to start feeling like a
Russian? The landscape? The environment? A genetic mutation? A specific
neurological arrangement?

Happy new year to you all!

Ayndryl

Forgotten Languages
"Translation shall cease" project.

FOR THE SAKE OF READING ALL THESE POSTS I AM PASTING HER REPLIES ALL FROM THE LINK PROVIDED. I SCREENSHOTTED THEM INCASE ANYONE CAN CLICK IT.


Ayndryl

Kbas and antbez:

"Feeling Russian" in this context means this: Russian speakers have the words "dusa" and "sud'ba", for which no translation exists in English. Translating them into "soul" and "fate" is just a rough approximation. Only a native speaker of Russian can fully grasp the meaning of "dusa". Only a native speaker of Hebrew can grasp the full meaning of "memrah" or "ruach". Only a native speaker of Lakota can fully understand the word "wakantanga". And all of them can easily understand quantum mechanics. This means humans are also complex adaptative systems.

There are no "genuine" Russian (or any other language) words. There are genuine Russian (or some other) feelings. This is so because you shape your language to talk about reality and what you feel when facing that reality, but speakers do live in quite different areas on this planet and they experience quite different "microrealities", therefore it is but normal to see differences in how they perceive reality and, thus, in how they name those experiences. For a Lakota there is no "sud'ba" at all. He never experienced the need of it, thus no need to name it.

Sure, if you were born in Dakota in, say, 1783, and your language be Russian, you will need to invent a word for "wakantaga". But sure, too, your word "sud'ba" would then disappear, as it would describe something unexsistent within your Lakota world.

We are not interested in proto-languages. We are interested in "proto-humans as they spoke" in order to grasp "post-humans as they will speak".

It is extremely easy to "invent" a language from scratch. However, as time passes, that language will evolve. And it happens it evolves in a quite specific and predictable way. The final state is always the same for any given language. This evolution is proto-language indpendent. We are more interested in tomorrow's language.

The length of the sentences, the speed at which you can talk a language, the phonology, the order of the sentence, all this is limited and constrained by your cognitive structure and your neurological setup. All languages will finally converge in time into one and the same language, provided reality remains the same.

But speakers, their languages, and reality itself are dynamical systems, always changing. These are non-linearties that modify the language and your cognitive structure in radical ways. The net result is this: new languages emerge, others they die.

So finally, we are investigating the state equation of language, assessing whether it is a Markov process, an Ising-spin process, a fractal process, or whatever. This is key for us in order to make both backward and forward language analysis.

The languages you happened to spot in our blog are final or intermediate states for a given scenario we are currently working on. The one you thought to be Welsh is called Weddag-2075: we fed the system with Welsh, supressed the Normand contribution, added some Goidelic patterns, and left the system evolve assigning specific value to the Beta exponent of an Ising system to see what happens. Beta = 2.075 in this particular scenario.

The language called Alashi-1330 is a semitic one with bi-radical nouns and IE SVO typology with a Lyapunov exponent of 1.33. And so on.


antbez,

Actually you can establish some isomorphism between language L1 and L2, though in general this does not work, as you correctly stated. However, it is "attractors" and "homology" what we are talking here. As you know, it is imposible to find the original seed state S(0) of a Markov process given the final state S(f) by virtue of the stochastic nature of the process. But it might be of interest to you that, regardless of the initial state (that is, language) you arrive to quite stable (and beautiful) consistent configurations (like Eddag-1240 or Elyam-2200).

Finally, the configurations you arrive at are all languages. You can use them as you use your native ones, you can use them to describe reality or write poetry. What you see in our blog are the entries of the users where they announce the translation of the relevant books into a given generated language.

Again, we are not interested in "conlangs". We are interested in fractal linguistics.

There is much to be read here since about page 70 (which is when I last checked in), I have given it no more than a skant and rather superficial glance. I have not been paying much attention to this particular thread of late, nor the site in general. I should really have been paying more attention A round of applause beforehand then, to those who have spent their valuable time to propose their ideas, proving, disproving or improving previous theories, ideas or suggestions related to the subject. I must say that this is STILL the most fascinating forum topic I have ever come across. The interests for me go across the board; ancient religions (Hittite, Assyrian, Sumerian) as well as language; the whole tech side of it goes beyond my capacity to either comment or assess. I am sure the language ideas broadened many a mind. Once I read the things I have missed by the many and valued contributors to this thread I will feel able to contribute once more. Good Hunting!

They got a video called humans away from home. At the end it says it's dedicated to all the humans confined at Dulce.

We need to get this thread going again. It's the best thread on ATS.

I haven't visited this thread in quite some time. Seems like I've missed quite a lot but I imagine no one really got close to discovering much of anything. I'm pretty sure Forgotten Languages are still as vague as when this thread started.

I'm not entirely sure why they insist on making those videos or whether they hold some secret message we can't understand, I just think they're bored people with who consider themselves artists. Bleh

I do however find the whole software thing interesting. I'm wondering if whether being linguists makes them better programmers cause they have a natural ability of understanding different languages.

I also know they've tracked some folks here via their IP addresses on ATS, specially those that reguraly visited their site. Apparently some of us are on a list, too.

I've spoken to the professor and she pretty much had the same thing to say as Ayndryl(whether his/her/its name is). They're just studying languages and how they evolve by mixing different languages together in a computer program. It spits out a new languages and they study it. That's basically it. I've made up my mind there isn't anything suspicious about them accept for their strange taste in music and what they consider art.

Anyways, got a lot of reading to do....

Also, Ayndryl has a stick up his/her bum. Every time you mail him/her the response soooooo formal. Probably a bot or something. Jeeeze

reply to post by JosephPalasky


How do you know they track people and they are keeping lists?

imo, It comes across as a psychology experiment to look at the nature of how free thinking (now deemed subversive) people think and act. Which was announced in the press that the US and UK were planning. Prolly getting put into personality profiles then sectioned into categories for how dangerous we are.

Are there no laws left regarding privacy/ holding personal data and human experimentation?

If you've got a nail file in your handbag your probably labelled a terrorist these days

*toasts coffee to a safer world

JosephPalasky

I also know they've tracked some folks here via their IP addresses on ATS, specially those that reguraly visited their site. Apparently some of us are on a list, too.

Some of us, eh? Why, if I didn't know better, I might interpret that as a not so indirect threat. I'd ask you how you are privy to that info, but I doubt it's necessary. You've already done a fantastic job exposing your own ass throughout this thread, you don't need my help.

Also, Ayndryl has a stick up his/her bum. Every time you mail him/her the response soooooo formal. Probably a bot or something.

Ah, if only.

Guys, say hello to "Ayndryl":



Meet Ruben Cerda, translator, programmer, fake nuclear physicist, cult leader, and (just maybe) Mossad asset.



Oh, and native of Madrid (give him our regards, Jonjonj. )

His is a long, weird story, and it begins in 1988, when young Ruben worked for the gubmint developing English-Spanish translation software and corresponded regularly on a proto-message board dedicated to linguistics. Always fascinated with dead languages, he left his job to study abroad in Israel. He returned to Europe in 1990, again working for a state entity with a system that monitored incoming data from the Eta Carinae Nebula (!).

And at some point, he appeared to lose his black mind, publishing an article claiming that the data was falsified, and destroying all the discs and hard drives associated with the project.

The trail goes cold here, God knows what he was up to in the intervening years.

But in 2007, he shows up at the Iruña-Veleia dig, sponsored by archaeologist Eliseo Gil. Claiming to hold a degree in Nuclear Physics (he doesn't), Cerdan apparently salted the site with fabricated artifacts, attesting to their authenticity by falsifying the data. Looks like he embezzled a hefty chunk of funding, too.

It took two years for him to be found out, and he is still embroiled in a civil suit that is either going to land him in prison or bankrupt him.

In 2010, papa found a brand new bag in the form of FL. The six hundred some comments here are mostly from people that either knew Cerdan through the Iruña-Veleia fiasco, or through the online linguistics community.

No one has anything nice to say.

Here's commentator Mary, asking a question that is very pertinent to our little community here at ATS:

Their participation in many forums rare could it be to learn about others? contact a particular type of people manipulable?

To recruit particular types? Well, it's happened here.

My take:

If one is developing crypto-software for a private or state entity, and his state ties have been established-- and intel ties become heavily implied when digging through his time in Israel-- running your operation as a cult provides a loyal and infinitely exploitable work force-- why do all the work himself when he can delegate it to members who'll do it for free while he collects the checks?

And to some types, there are other perks to be had in the cult grift. Reading over his written work, I'd say Cerdan fits the Jim Jones bill nicely.

Related reading:

iesusioshemarian.wordpress.com...

www.sos-irunaveleia.org...:2009-11-27-ruben-cerdan-fisico-nuclear:un-arbitro

terraeantiqvae.com...

terraeantiqvae.com...

iesusioshemarian.files.wordpress.com...

terraeantiqvae.com...

www.diariovasco.com...

en.convdocs.org...

Oh noes i hope they don't track the 4 random proxies i use a day.

So explain to me why this site has people like alexandre direne who links me to translate.google.com...://www.inf.ufpr.br/alexd/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dalexandre%2Bdirene%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D467

or

www.inf.ufpr.br/alexd/

He is a smart cookie to say the least. To smart in my opinion to be manipulated. Maybe i'm wrong. This fellow in into some neat things.

Languages ​​and authoring tools for educational content;
Intelligent environments to support learning;
Aided teaching simulators intelligent;
Specialized teaching visual concepts.

Research in these fields is conducted in the Laboratory of Artificial Intelligence and Formal Methods (LIAMF) , Department of Computer UFPR. In particular, research in Intelligent Tutoring Systems covers applications ranging from the Pilot Project UCA (One Laptop per Child) , dissemination of digital culture in public schools, the RUI Project , to support the teaching of specialized concepts of medical radiology. In parallel, in the field of educational games, teaching concepts through heuristic chess has led to unique results (see publications in Lattes). For access to the texts of publications and links to practice with various tools produced, visit the Project to Support the Teaching of Computer Chess in Schools . To access only the gaming environment, visit the server Chess Free .


BTW Eidolen, great info!!!! I got lots of fun reading planned!

reply to post by Eidolon23


I'm stunned.

I so appreciate you providing me with the opportunity to repost this, and since I was guessing the first time around...

This is for you, Andryl...



Unbelievably weird.

guardian0111
Oh noes i hope they don't track the 4 random proxies i use a day.

So explain to me why this site has people like alexandre direne who links me to translate.google.com...://www.inf.ufpr.br/alexd/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dalexandre%2Bdirene%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D467

or

www.inf.ufpr.br/alexd/

He is a smart cookie to say the least. To smart in my opinion to be manipulated. Maybe i'm wrong. This fellow in into some neat things.

Maybe FL has a tiered structure. Maybe your boy Direne is 1st tier. Levels of encryption in the software they use would reinforce such a structure. Like most state ops that use a cult as a front (Scientology, People's Temple, etc., etc.) there's always an inner circle that's in on the game.

*shrug*

reply to post by guardian0111


Just to tie in another bizarre element, and one I referred to wayyyyy back in this thread: the Russian far right has evinced a keen interest in developing a Universal Grammar.

The cross-activity between FL and the forums where these linguistically inclined Neo-Fascists hang out strikes one as... odd.

Here's an article that delves into this aspect, courtesy of member 1ofthe9:

Utopian for Beginners

Eidolon23
Maybe FL has a tiered structure. Maybe your boy Direne is 1st tier. Levels of encryption in the software they use would reinforce such a structure. Like most state ops that use a cult as a front (Scientology, People's Temple, etc., etc.) there's always an inner circle that's in on the game.

*shrug*

Highly astute.

Particularly liked Mary's comment about seeking out those who can be manipulated. If our experience on ATS has taught us anything it should be that that commodity is shockingly easy to find, or rather, that there is a desperate need for someone to provide the answers which ultimately leads to the identification of malleability, especially if it entails an abrogation of responsibility, and, a sense of specialness.

All round, good work. I thank you for your efforts with this, it has helped clarify one or two things for me.

A most curious tale this of a man that fell in love with a Pulsar;

That's why, that night, when the main computer reported an anomaly
in the pulse's time of arrival, and after all my checks forcing me
for the first time to recognize there was a real error in my pulsar,
I decided... to hide the fact... changing all recorded data to
reflect the pattern I am used to... the perfect pattern... clean of
any anomalies... It took me more than a month. In fact, I have just
finished occulting all tracks, deleting the log tapes, modifying
the signal processor readouts. I know this is bad, I know I am
just doing exactly the opposite to what they expect from me...

But love is an irrational feeling anyway, and I love my pulsar.
Everything is again as always: more RETs on my desk, more tapes
distributed all over the world, more measurements every night.

It is true. I am not the same man. Everybody says I need a rest,
a break from this job. My boss even suggested I should move to
other department, perhaps cosmic rays, or the supernovae guys...
Yes... I need a rest... an endless rest facing that remote region
in Eta Carinae... where I need no computers, timelessly resting
in a limitless space far away beyond Cygnus

Age of Contempt


That did however have much method;

The money he earned every month was carefully invested in his
five areas of interest; a 20% was devoted to buy more books about
History, Archeology, and Music that he devoured at night. Another
20% was devoted to increase his knowledge about computers,
advanced information systems, and methodologies. A 15% was
invested in what he labeled as "Defense". This caption included
investing money in the stock exchange as a way to save enough
money to face what he called "defense operations". The remaining
45% of his earnings was used to cope with the daily tasks that
life brings together: food, clothing, car, housing...

Perhaps too much;

There is always a dream the spider has: she dreams of starting a new webnet, creating a master piece, so well-designed, so perfectly done, so in love she falls with her webnet... that she doesn't notice she is the prisioner in her own webnet, trapped in the middle of it...

That's the feeling I get about you, when you talk to me about your world of wonders. I always end with the feeling that you are trapped in that world, my friend, like the spider in her dream.

Time foams around mine soul... seeing you from behind the trees...whispering secrets from inside this my skin...into which I hide... from myself.

Ruben.

reply to post by Eidolon23


Nice find!

Well yeah, I guess I've been exposed to some extent. Well.... they probably do have my IP address but they possibly captured it via a link in an email to an article about data centers in Transylvania or from my email itself but without an alias to connect to my alias on ATS they'd still be in the dark.

I'm not sure if it's possible to connect IP address from their site to members on ATS unless those members contacted them via an email which would expose their IP address and if they used the same alias as their ATS alias.

And after posting this,they probably have a connection to me too. But I'm not really threatened by them. I actually think they're amateurs, honestly.

I emailed them from seperate emails under different aliases asking them questions.

Basically Ayndryl said they created the software to encrypt their discussion and infomation in order to hide from I guess the NDA and who ever else would want to know more about, hence the article to the data centers in Transylvania.

I use Python and Perl for string processing, and JESSE for programming rule-based engines. When there is a need to program hardware and chips, I use macro and J.

Johnny, yesterday Enlyddir posted at FL something called Altoona Event. Well, I tell you now. It has to do with this here:

slashdot.org...

See, those are the things that worry us (it is supposed to be the new facilities of Facebook, another private data gathering companies out there). Privacy is being destroyed. That's why we invented our languages, Johnny.

Well yeah, I just don't think there is really anything that could interest me about these guys anymore.... or quite honestly I just don't care anymore, even after reading your post.

Well I'm posting this here, you guys can make of it what you will.

But I think Ayndryl is a chick, though? Cause she ends her emails with "kisses, friend"? Maybe homosexual? haha, who knows...

Oh and FYI, they considered me a threat because I was posting personal information of them on ATS. So possibly you might be on their Sh.... list, too.

reply to post by JosephPalasky


Wow JosephPalasky,

I.P. addresses. Gosh, what do you suppose that they are going to do with them? And their list?

Should I be prepared for something like this?

reply to post by Bybyots


lol. Dude! Naaaa, would be funny though.

IP address might expose your location but not your direct address. It's fairly useless unless you're using it for adverts and stuff.

But if its true, that they've tracked particular members, I'm sure they can DOX someone the same way some of the members here have and find out a whole lot more information about you. Facebook page, LinkedIn Account, ect, which they can then cross check with your location. Even if you used an email which you've used across various accounts on websites that could also put you in danger of having your accouts hacked and more information extracted about you. They could extract your direct address that.

Also, by finding someones IP address you can check for open ports, vulnerable programs running on their machine that faces to the internet and that could compromise your data. Though, I doubt they'll get that far.

So yeah, an IP alone is fairly useless but combined with other methods of extracting data it can be handy.

reply to post by Eidolon23


2075 ruben is a refernce to a famous painting and a location in France called the Louvre the painting is by peter paul rubens and is entitled "the flight of lot" its location within the Louvre is 2075

Link

The painting depicts Lot looking away from the angel and towards his woman

Link

My take on it but interesting research

Ruben Cerda was also mentioned on page 63 of this thread by member Pthena

JosephPalasky
reply to post by Bybyots

 

lol. Dude! Naaaa, would be funny though.

IP address might expose your location but not your direct address. It's fairly useless unless you're using it for adverts and stuff.

But if its true, that they've tracked particular members, I'm sure they can DOX someone the same way some of the members here have and find out a whole lot more information about you. Facebook page, LinkedIn Account, ect, which they can then cross check with your location. Even if you used an email which you've used across various accounts on websites that could also put you in danger of having your accouts hacked and more information extracted about you. They could extract your direct address that.

Also, by finding someones IP address you can check for open ports, vulnerable programs running on their machine that faces to the internet and that could compromise your data. Though, I doubt they'll get that far.

So yeah, an IP alone is fairly useless but combined with other methods of extracting data it can be handy.

edit on 20-11-2013 by JosephPalasky because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-11-2013 by JosephPalasky because: (no reason given)

Geez, JosephPalasky, you sure know an awful lot about I.P. and haxor for a guy that didn't know what a NIC was back in July.

Are you clear on what a NIC is now? Seems you've gone and got yourself up to speed on networking.

Click on the defense tab. Someone got doxed there. And the title is "making friends in Oregon"


Whoa. Side effects and collateral? Ah man don't reaper drone someone. Jeez guys/gals. And they got it put under defense? What the heck? At least the reaper will be quick and painless.

Well anyone got any other interesting reading for me? Where is the Gut?

reply to post by Bybyots


Pet Shop Boys