What if Jesus is the DECEPTION?

Originally posted by Jusvistn
reply to post by borntowatch

 

I think what I mean is that it is more in the way that his messages and teachings are being interpreted. You have to admit that in the grand scheme of the church, Jesus is always front and center and God is always taking the back seat....

Like I said, I'm not trying to start a holy war, I'm trying to get my head wrapped around all of this. I believe in GOD, I DO NOT believe in religion. I have several who tell me I need to go to church and take my kids to church each Sunday, and I find that very difficult, because at church, I do not feel that I am closer to God, but I do feel like I am having Jesus rammed down my throat.

For me, Faith is not something that I should parade around on Sunday's and push onto others, but it is a way of life in everything I do, and see and experience.

I am sorry if I have offended you, it is not my intention to do so. I am interested in what you would like to share.

Anything but offended
My question was how you came to an understanding Christ wanted us to worship Him. Christ gave all glory to the Father, even in the Lords prayer Christ indicated we pray to the Father.

Now if God wanted the front seat He would have not sent His son to be glorified on the cross (John 13,30-33), remember Christ on the cross was doing His fathers will, not His own.
God knew Jesus would receive glory
"Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me." and in John Jesus receives Gods glory
"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

The church is full of liars and deceivers, the truth is accept Christ died to forgive sin and work on loving every one as you would wish them to love you.
Thats no simple task


Yes there is a deception, not in Jesus or what Jesus does or receives but in the teaching that we pray and glorify Jesus
But
Is praying and glorifying Jesus bad, I dont think its an issue.
True love does not concern itself with identity issues and God is a trinity.

Now as for going to church.
It is important, very important to be with other Christians who love and serve God to help and encourage you to be loving as Christ was.
We need relationships that hold us accountable for our actions and our ignorance to our own failures in this life.

Church on Sunday, not so much.
Church is about relationships not a building preaching and singing. Good luck with that part.

Never underestimate the ability of evil to present itself as good.

Personally, I don't trust anyone who likes others to refer to them as "Lord"...

Originally posted by superluminal11
Jesus never said he was God.


He said it was the father in him that did the works.

Matter fact he would have told you not to worship him.

When he said to see him was to see God...he meant his nature.
Kindness, Forgiveness, Love, Compassion.

Sorry, why did the Jews kill Christ

to NihilistSanta
I apologize if my question seemed vague and disjointed. I was not trying to say that I don't believe in the teachings of the Bible, or Jesus, and again, I stress that where I believe the deception may lie is in the interpretation of the way PEOPLE worship Jesus over God. What does bother me about the bible though, is that it is taught that Jesus, the bible and Christianity is the ONLY real and true faith and all others are wrong. And why do most no longer read or preach or teach from the Old Testament? Would that not be part of the larger blueprint you speak of? The NEW Testament is most often taught and read and read from, and for the shear number of New Testaments out there on the shelf, how often do you see copies of the Old Testament where you can just pick it off the shelf?

You said: quote "A lot of Kabbalah is metaphysical conjecture. It is similar to what you are doing now. It begins by dissecting a passage and removing its meaning and extrapolating your own whether the source justifies it or not."

This may be true, or your interpretation of the Kabbalah, but one could say the near same thing about the Bible. And in the end, they do basically teach the same things:

Humility, Honesty, Compassion, Love, Respect, etc...... yet it also gives you tools to help actually accomplish this, where the Bible only "tells you" to. IMO

to FrenchOsage
You ask if I really seek the truth, and yes I do really seek the truth. I have sought through many different Faiths and this is what has played on my mind for quite some time, as to me, it seems the Christian Faith the one that most often puts all other down and labeled as sinful. So I ask, why is this?

to BO XIAN
I have stilled my heart and mind and this the question I always come back to.... Do I really have to Believe in Jesus above all others, or is there truth in the other Faiths that I can take from? IMO I feel that each one holds a portion of the truth and the true path. But if I do this, then am I damned? IMO I feel that God cares less about HOW you find your path to Him, only that you DO.

I will try to reply to some more of the posts this afternoon, but for now, I must ready myself and get to work...... have a great folks! Thank you all for your insights

reply to post by Jusvistn


I couldnt have wrote that any better. I too feel exactly as you do. God is God and Jesus is Jesus, Jesus is NOT God. Plus the whole praying to a man nailed to a cross instead of praying to God, makes me think of God saying "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. So isnt all those crucifixes around ppls necks and in churches bearing those graven images>?
S+F OP

Shaade

reply to post by Jusvistn

FAITH- is confidence or trust in a person, thing, deity, or in the doctrines or teachings of a religion. It is also belief that is not based on proof.

In religion, faith often involves accepting claims about the character of a deity, nature, or the universe. While some have argued that faith is opposed to reason, proponents of faith argue that the proper domain of faith concerns questions which cannot be settled by evidence.

The above is the definition of FAITH and that is what you or I or everyone else must have in order to have a relationship with any GOD or PROPHET of any religion...Without FAITH there is no belief there is only doubt...There is no convincing one to believing any religion if the person does not have FAITH...

FAITH is a growing thing not unlike lets say for example a plant...Ask any Religious Person about how they obtain FAITH and how do they sustain FAITH and they will tell you its always a work in progress that they pray for it, that they study the (bible...or whatever) to strengthen it and they flourish it by focusing on the beauty the world has to offer(nature, music, art)...

FAITH is one of the foundations of Christianity...without it you have no belief in God or Jesus that can ever grow to maturity...

I will break a ATS rule and post an excerpt from the Bible, as opposed to telling you what I "think" or "feel"

1 John 2:22-24
New International Version (NIV)

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also

You can't have one without the other, and still have the God of creation. The only way the perfect judge can forgive your sins, and yet be just simultaneously merciful, is for that judge to take your punnishment on himself.

reply to post by Jusvistn


Christ vindicated himself before and after the crucifixion. Today no spoken name wields more power.

Originally posted by Jusvistn
I honestly do not want to start a holy war or all out religious cyber fight, but am looking for real input.

I believe in GOD, I believe that there is an intelligent design to our planet, our environment and our species, but I truly struggle with the concept of Jesus as GOD.

I'm not saying that Jesus never existed, and I'm not saying that Jesus wasn't a great inspiration bringing GODS will and knowledge to us, but I find it difficult to worship a man when GOD says you "will put no other GODS before me." Essentially, is that not what folks are doing when they are praying and worshiping Jesus INSTEAD of God?

And though Jesus teaches these things, and then tells us to worship him..... what if he is the true deception in the grand scheme of things?

To me, Jesus is separate from God, and I have a hard time calling them one in the same, and I have difficulty with the God made flesh aspect that brings us to the whole Son, Spirit, Holy Ghost thing..... For me, to believe in the "one true God" means that Jesus would be no more than a teacher as what you would find preaching from the front of the church today. So I ask again, could Jesus be the Deception, and in his "teachings" be pulling the people away from God and into his own agenda?

I'm just trying to get my head wrapped around this. I appreciate your civil insights.

..i think you are a serious man Jus

let me ask you please -
it appears, that there are many, many "beings" roaming around us
compare sumerian snakes... dragon types... half-humans...etc

now
Henoch mentions a "very beautiful Son, next to Gods throne "
- which is the Lord

...would not Hé be the type of human being, which we should become ?

[ as opposed to 'snakes'.. 'dragons '... midgets'... 'deformed templates' ...etc ? ]

Originally posted by Lone12

Originally posted by Jusvistn
I honestly do not want to start a holy war or all out religious cyber fight, but am looking for real input.

I believe in GOD, I believe that there is an intelligent design to our planet, our environment and our species, but I truly struggle with the concept of Jesus as GOD.

I'm not saying that Jesus never existed, and I'm not saying that Jesus wasn't a great inspiration bringing GODS will and knowledge to us, but I find it difficult to worship a man when GOD says you "will put no other GODS before me." Essentially, is that not what folks are doing when they are praying and worshiping Jesus INSTEAD of God?

And though Jesus teaches these things, and then tells us to worship him..... what if he is the true deception in the grand scheme of things?

To me, Jesus is separate from God, and I have a hard time calling them one in the same, and I have difficulty with the God made flesh aspect that brings us to the whole Son, Spirit, Holy Ghost thing..... For me, to believe in the "one true God" means that Jesus would be no more than a teacher as what you would find preaching from the front of the church today. So I ask again, could Jesus be the Deception, and in his "teachings" be pulling the people away from God and into his own agenda?

I'm just trying to get my head wrapped around this. I appreciate your civil insights.

..i think you are a serious man Jus

let me ask you please -
it appears, that there are many, many "beings" roaming around us
compare sumerian snakes... dragon types... half-humans...etc

now
Henoch mentions a "very beautiful Son, next to Gods throne "
- which is the Lord

...would not Hé be the type of human being, which we should become ?

[ as opposed to 'snakes'.. 'dragons '... midgets'... 'deformed templates' ...etc ? ]

...i do understand you having problems with seeing Him as God

but remember,
He made 'man into His image '
so how it can be strange that "He is His image " ?

tutanchamon means "the image of amun "

so how it could be strange, that the Lord is the image of His human ?

as opposed to sumerian snakes... egyptian jackalls...or chinese dragons ?

Originally posted by Badgered1
If Jesus existed (past tense) he would have been Jewish. They called him 'Rabbi.' He would have lived and died a Jew. Jesus could never have been a Christian.

I think this is semantics somewhat?

Jesus was a critic of the Judaean Temple amongst other things. Christianity is an off-shoot of Jewish religion ergo yes, Jesus' brand of Judaism became Christianity much like followers of John the Baptist became Mandean. These distinctions of followings occur after conflict which is to be expected.

The assertion: "Jesus exists, no question." is simply not true. You cannot prove it. There are no contemporary writings about him.
His birth story is borrowed. His death wasn't spectacularly different from any other death under the rule of Rome.

I believe there is actually a fair bit more evidence for Jesus than a few other things that we take for granted historically?

With oral history, Jesus being referenced several decades after his death is not at all surprising. Furthermore, the existence in history of supporting figures of that history cements that claim to some strong degree.

Possibles:
1. Jesus was a historical figure
2. The Jews invented a fake historical figure (or added several together) and then claimed the Romans executed him, and third party Roman sources decided to agree with this. Then the Jews invented an off-shoot faith from this?
3. Jesus didn't exist, and therefore nor did John the Baptist or many other figures

The resurrection, taken literally, would have been one of the most spectacular, and novel occurrences on the planet at the time, and the only people who felt compelled to tell us about it were monks a hundred or more years later? Nobody at the time felt the urge to write it down?

I actually think this historically makes an awful lot of sense in that the times we're perceiving.

Several 'Messiahs' and 'Prophets' were killed at this time. The least successful of them tried to replicate various traditional miracles such as parting water or claiming God would bring down the walls of cities. They ended up being executed after a short uprising or disturbance. It would seem odd to record such happenings if Jesus was a false historical figure ...

Prophecy was also quite common at this time. From what I've understood religion wasn't separate from politics at all and parables were a way to investigate the world and discuss the local situation. In this way, Jesus and John the Baptist wouldn't have appeared to be anything special to the Romans or even the Temples of the time at first blush.

The Romans would have seen Jesus and John as just more rebel leaders who often came with prophetic promises. It wasn't till later that their impact became apparent. Therefore it isn't particularly surprising that no one thought to write these things down. The educated Temple leaders would not have wanted to, the locals couldn't, and the execution of Jesus and John was another Friday morning during a forgettable week for Rome.

There was actually nothing novel about the claims of resurrection. The followers of John the Baptist (who considered Jesus a traitor) also made claim that John the Baptist was not slain. Truth is stranger than fiction sometimes, and Monty Python's Life of Brian isn't actually that inaccurate when you think about it.

I'm not sure, maybe your Atheism is maybe getting ahead of you? I find history awesomely fascinating, and I'm not the bestest historian reader on the planet, so please tell me if I'm off base but I think what we know narrows down to Jesus being a historical figure (or figures) recorded in Jewish tradition.

The fact that other 'magical' figures of the time were disposed of like loose denarii by the Romans makes me feel more confident about this, and more confident that the people of the time inserted magical events into their narratives as a matter of course.

Originally posted by Jusvistn
I'm not saying that Jesus never existed, and I'm not saying that Jesus wasn't a great inspiration bringing GODS will and knowledge to us, but I find it difficult to worship a man when GOD says you "will put no other GODS before me." Essentially, is that not what folks are doing when they are praying and worshiping Jesus INSTEAD of God?

GOD says you "will put no other GODS before me."

Jesus is the same God as the one he claims sent him.

All global Gov. & ET (if willing to assist with accurate data) and all combined religious/archeological, data compiled with t.secret confiscated - quarantined - vaulted data, to 1 would help BUILD THE BETTER PICTURE OF objective TRUTH OF EA*RTH somewhat, on the many issues with: doubt of GOD -who is GOD -why did man label the GOD-who did man label NATAS-who is the SON. I say somewhat because after learning more objective truth some of mankind may lose all faith as well as mental/physical stability why others may gain it. This is why things are withheld and perhaps why fragments of objective data seems all those who do NOT have access have access to. So much dedication is /has gone into the researching of these Higher beings on the outside of the KNOW. This 1 hopes is evaluated observed by those who would be able to evaluate for many do their best with what is shared and it is not easy...

NAMASTE*******

Apologies for not reading the ENTIRE thread, you may consider these remarks to be off topic.

The concept of Jesus as God was promoted in the fourth century and expressed in the Nicene Creed - as far as I understand the concept of the Holy Trinity, both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are considered as much "god" as "God the Father". We were taught the "Apostle's Creed" in Catholic School when I was a kid, along with the now-defunct concept of limbo, the "sin" of eating meat on Friday, praying for the dead, and a host of other concepts that couldn't be resolved thus inducing a great degree of cognitive dissonance.

Further, is it not a pre-requisite to affirm the Nicene Creed and the Holy Trinity for ALL Christian sects?

On cursory examination, Paul of Tarsus was never an Apostle, although all the Roman Catholic services refer to his Epistles as being from "Paul the Apostle". This has always irked me somewhat, being as Paul's teachings are the most misogynistic writings in the New Testament, especially if one includes the concept of a celibate clergy as a result of applying Paul's writings to the inner workings of the Church . In my view (admittedly not a widely held one) Paul of Tarsus is most aptly described as "Paul the Apostate" not "Paul the Apostle".

Again, in my view, Jesus is NOT a deception - BUT - many of the biblical writings in the New Testament ARE quite deceptive and ultimately dilute the teachings of Jesus as represented in the Holy Bible.

With respect,

ganjoa

Originally posted by ganjoa
Apologies for not reading the ENTIRE thread, you may consider these remarks to be off topic.
In my view (admittedly not a widely held one) Paul of Tarsus is most aptly described as "Paul the Apostate" not "Paul the Apostle".

Again, in my view, Jesus is NOT a deception - BUT - many of the biblical writings in the New Testament ARE quite deceptive and ultimately dilute the teachings of Jesus as represented in the Holy Bible.

With respect,

ganjoa

edit on 10-7-2013 by ganjoa because: spellin'

edit on 10-7-2013 by ganjoa because: (no reason given)

I would like to see how you could convince someone that Paul was an apostate. I mean Just from scratch as if you were talking to a person that had never heard of Paul. Were are these great apostate teachings he was said to have made? And where do the contradict or go against established doctrine?

Originally posted by Jusvistn
I honestly do not want to start a holy war or all out religious cyber fight, but am looking for real input.

I believe in GOD, I believe that there is an intelligent design to our planet, our environment and our species, but I truly struggle with the concept of Jesus as GOD.

I'm not saying that Jesus never existed, and I'm not saying that Jesus wasn't a great inspiration bringing GODS will and knowledge to us, but I find it difficult to worship a man when GOD says you "will put no other GODS before me." Essentially, is that not what folks are doing when they are praying and worshiping Jesus INSTEAD of God?

And though Jesus teaches these things, and then tells us to worship him..... what if he is the true deception in the grand scheme of things?

To me, Jesus is separate from God, and I have a hard time calling them one in the same, and I have difficulty with the God made flesh aspect that brings us to the whole Son, Spirit, Holy Ghost thing..... For me, to believe in the "one true God" means that Jesus would be no more than a teacher as what you would find preaching from the front of the church today. So I ask again, could Jesus be the Deception, and in his "teachings" be pulling the people away from God and into his own agenda?

I'm just trying to get my head wrapped around this. I appreciate your civil insights.

Yeah I think you're pretty much dead on about Jesus's teachings being meant to pull people away from what "God" really is (yourself). Jesus's teachings tells us that God is outside of us and needs to be worshiped and sacrificed for. God is inside of us, not outside. We need not make offerings and sacrifices except to ourselves. When we pray, our we not talking to ourselves? Our own inner voice that tells us what God is? Because it is us.

Christians like to think that they are monotheistic, when in reality they are very much polytheistic. They're basically doing the same thing that the ancient Greeks did, and assign different gods to different aspects of nature. Satan is the god of the underworld and evil, Jesus is the god of love apparently, and also God in general who made everything, including Satan (?), Gabriel is the god of death, etc...

And even within the polytheistic gods, there is more division. Within "God", there is Jesus...Father and son are the same person, simultaneously inhabiting a human form and being everywhere else at once, while calling out to himself from his human form....yet he is himself and also God but he needs to pray to himself in heaven...Does anyone else feel like the Christian concept of the Jesus-God is just a schitzophrenic psycho?

Originally posted by Pinke

Originally posted by Badgered1
If Jesus existed (past tense) he would have been Jewish. They called him 'Rabbi.' He would have lived and died a Jew. Jesus could never have been a Christian.

I think this is semantics somewhat?

Jesus was a critic of the Judaean Temple amongst other things. Christianity is an off-shoot of Jewish religion ergo yes, Jesus' brand of Judaism became Christianity much like followers of John the Baptist became Mandean. These distinctions of followings occur after conflict which is to be expected.

Great reduction of Jesus even against the testimony of those that knew Him.

He was not a critic like some guy running a column in the local paper. He came into the temple with much fan fair having just raised a man from the dead. He walked into the place and cleaned it out and was not arrested because of the great fear the priests had of Him and His followers. Then He taught in the temple openly without any official capacity......without position or papers...while the temple ptb sat back in the shadows and gnashed their teeth. They even sent guards to arrest Him but the guards refused. Jesus produced a total breakdown in temple protocol to say the least.

Originally posted by Kody27



Christians like to think that they are monotheistic, when in reality they are very much polytheistic. They're basically doing the same thing that the ancient Greeks did, and assign different gods to different aspects of nature. Satan is the god of the underworld and evil, Jesus is the god of love apparently, and also God in general who made everything, including Satan (?), Gabriel is the god of death, etc...

There is a good deal of dozy headed nonsense that goes on in the church. Just a great deal of poorly explained ideas and concepts.

As far as polytheism there should be no misunderstanding here from anyone that has studied the issues whether they believe it or not. Jesus was given all authority, buy His father, after His resurrection over all things below the earth, on the earth and above the earth. All realms. Even in the unseen realm He demonstrated total authority. That's the proper teaching there whatever one may believe. There should be no misunderstanding.

reply to post by Jusvistn


Anyone can walk into any church of any denomination/religion and find a group of people all singing the same hymn or reading the same page from some holy book and they all appear to be on the exact same page, so to speak. But if their inner most beliefs were examined and their opinions on exact meanings were scrutinized, one would find a room full of individuals who just did not agree on everything.

In the end, who/what was Jesus becomes fodder for debate and argument and sometimes even downright savagery.

Of course, it doesn't HAVE to be religion to inspire such behavior. At any given moment in human history, one could find numerous subjects contemporary to the day that might lead to the same results.

Onward...

If someone who had never heard even the name of Jesus Christ were to read the stories available in the four canonical gospels as well as the gnostic accounts, the outcome could likely be quite different than for those who are raised with the same being taught by a specific religious approach. In the former, one might be inclined to apply the example set forth by the person in question rather than going into the telling seeing halos over his head at every turn.

Am I suggesting that Christ was not the Son of God? Not at all... but Jesus didn't try and advertise himself as being anything except someone with a concept and approach and a new way of living life properly while obeying the basic rules of existence.

Examples?

Turning the other cheek while rendering unto Caesar may be about keeping faith in a separate place from business, not allowing anger to get the better of you and all while still surviving day-to-day existence in ancient and volatile Roman Judea.

Now then, was this spoken by a deity or someone with a notion of how humanity desperately needed to change itself? An individual's intake mechanism is what strains and routes destinations... and leads to opinion.

At the end of the day, a person reading those gospels with no foreknowledge of the contents might find that Christ was indeed the Messiah while, at the same turn, someone rasised under religion might decide that it is all myth.

What if Jesus is the DECEPTION?

What if He is NOT?

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by Kody27



Christians like to think that they are monotheistic, when in reality they are very much polytheistic. They're basically doing the same thing that the ancient Greeks did, and assign different gods to different aspects of nature. Satan is the god of the underworld and evil, Jesus is the god of love apparently, and also God in general who made everything, including Satan (?), Gabriel is the god of death, etc...

There is a good deal of dozy headed nonsense that goes on in the church. Just a great deal of poorly explained ideas and concepts.

As far as polytheism there should be no misunderstanding here from anyone that has studied the issues whether they believe it or not. Jesus was given all authority, buy His father, after His resurrection over all things below the earth, on the earth and above the earth. All realms. Even in the unseen realm He demonstrated total authority. That's the proper teaching there whatever one may believe. There should be no misunderstanding.

....Yeeeah except that everything you just said causes way more misunderstandings.

How could Jesus have been given authority, "by his father" ? I thought Jesus was his own father? I thought that Christians believed that Jesus and God were as one? That there was no separation?

So the act of God giving Jesus "total authority" over "all realms" (very vague) means that Jesus had authority over God, given to him from God, who is also himself?

Nothing you say could ever possibly make sense out of Christianity.