What if Jesus is the DECEPTION?

reply to post by cass1dy09


Well you do realized that Abraham as a descendent of Enoch lived in Ur(Sumeria) before he was chosen by the lord god right?I mean you do realized that people that the lineage of David is traceable back to Sumeria right?

If it is really examples you want you can read Genesis 18 and the Erra Epos.....oh and by the way Enoch and Adapa both walked with the gods and were shown the heavens

Originally posted by halfoldman
According to many street preachers it shouldn't matter if Jesus is a possible deception.

What should matter is if Jesus is the real deal.

Pretty much only Jesus will send the unbeliever to hell for all eternity.
Other faiths have a little bit of hell, but arguably people are let out eventually, or they are given another chance through reincarnation.

But Jesus won't allow such humane shenanigans.

At the time of death you either think He's real (and be saved), or you're going to burn for all eternity, which is a very long time indeed.

If He wasn't real (just in case) you can still recant after some purgatory or many different life times and find the "real" deity.

Thus, I guess logically, the safest thing to do is to believe He's real and not a deception.

edit on 9-7-2013 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)

But this is where I feel the deception begins. NOT that Jesus was never real, but in the end, you are basically forced by tyranny to believe in Him or suffer.... thus, forcing people to, out of fear, follow blindly without question. And to the end that all other teachings, of all other faiths are just flat out wrong.... my heart cannot accept or believe that GOD would be so discriminating. And on that note, if, in the bible, the "jews" are the chosen ones, why then, is there so much conspiracy and faith bashing toward those who follow the teachings of the Kabbalah? Is that not the ancient secret teachings of the "jewish" religion?

What if that IS the Jesus Deception? To scare the crap out of the masses so that they follow blindly, without question (as we are not question) away from God? Beware the wolf in sheeps cloths.... what if Jesus IS that wolf? And the more we try to follow Him, and ask Him into our hearts, we are being led astray and further away from God.

If Jesus were truly the salvation and God made flesh, would you not be using Jesus as a channel to ask GOD into your heart? Something like "through sacrifice and teachings of Jesus, your messenger, I ask you GOD to come into my heart" Not I ask you JESUS to come into my heart. ???

And where does that leave someone like me, who fully believes in GOD but not so much in Jesus? Am I destined to burn in hell? Would God not know the difference and know what is truly in my heart? That Jesus would punish me because I don't like him more? The concept just baffles me.

reply to post by BO XIAN


Thank you! That is quite the extensive list of links.... will take me some time to get through them all, but I'll do my best.

Let me get this straight, you are essentially cherry picking here right? I mean you agree on a historical Jesus yet the only source for this would be the bible. You believe in the resurrection .Why cherry pick one thing to believe but not the others? Why believe in God of the old testament but call the rest garbage? I am trying to understand the reasoning here besides a fear of being deceived. Maybe I missed something where you explain why you believe Jesus was real and had good teachings and rose from the dead according to the bible but don't believe any of the other things attributed to him that come from the bible.

This would be like me trying to build something by following a blue print only I decide to just pick and choose the parts I agree with despite a lack of mechanical knowledge. The whole thing collapses on itself.

But this is where I feel the deception begins. NOT that Jesus was never real, but in the end, you are basically forced by tyranny to believe in Him or suffer.... thus, forcing people to, out of fear, follow blindly without question. And to the end that all other teachings, of all other faiths are just flat out wrong.... my heart cannot accept or believe that GOD would be so discriminating. And on that note, if, in the bible, the "jews" are the chosen ones, why then, is there so much conspiracy and faith bashing toward those who follow the teachings of the Kabbalah? Is that not the ancient secret teachings of the "jewish" religion?

A lot of Kabbalah is metaphysical conjecture. It is similar to what you are doing now. It begins by dissecting a passage and removing its meaning and extrapolating your own whether the source justifies it or not.

reply to post by wildapache


Your argument isn't really convincing... I'm not going to admit I've studied much into Sumerians but I googled "Sumerian creation" and Wiki has it labeled as a myth with the tablets found dated around 1600BC...

I believe in GOD, I believe that there is an intelligent design to our planet, our environment and our species, but I truly struggle with the concept of Jesus as GOD.

It's not really something that is easy to understand.
It CAN be understood though.

Remember the parable of new wine in old skins? New wine will burst old skins, so if you want new wine be ready to dump out ALL the old and be willing to rethink things (new skins).

You won't find your answers here though. If you are sincere and willing to learn, you can learn everything you could ever hope to know by getting a decent translation of the Scriptures and begin to patiently, prayerfully read and meditate on what you are reading.

I like ISR's recent translation that accurately uses YHVH rather than the generic terms "god" or "lord" coupled with "theWord" study tool (both free downloads). I find it helpful to also use Strongs Concordance to better understand the Hebrew root words. There are other options though.

I think the most important question is "Do you really seek the truth?", only you can answer that though. Here you can learn what WE think. Why not go to the source?

reply to post by Logarock


I don't expect I'll be able to get to it for a week or 3. Too many other irons in the fire.

That sort of dialogue--to the degree it CAN be such hereon--can be exhausting, time consuming and tedius.

I have enough of that on my plate at present. LOL.

The sources are there, however, for those who are interested in digging truth out.

reply to post by Jusvistn


Perhaps you could Ask God to help you prioritize them from HIS perspective for you.

Probably if you still your heart and mind and listen, He'll advise you accordingly.

reply to post by NihilistSanta


Well first,because ive done a lot of research and came to the conclusion that the olden gods had to have existed,as i can basically trace some of them from SumerAkkad to Egypt to Greece to the celtics,South America etc,with first hand accounts.That those gods were PHYSICAL BEINGS WITH MOST OF HUMAN EMOTIONS(which barred them from being THE CREATOR OF ALL)
.As for the resurrection,he wasnt the first to be resurrected so that isnt much a big deal(I never said he was resurrected for our sins).....
Oh and we also have at least 1 HISTORIAN who mentionned him,so not just the bible......I don't believe any gods that were ever written about to have created the Universe(maybe engineered us humans from already present humanoid....),but that doesnt mean i shoudnt believe they physically existed.
And for Big J, loving my neighbor as myself doesnt hurt me so why not?isnt this his greatest teaching?

Jesus exists, no question. So does God but it is Jesus the world belongs to even though God originally created it He has given it to Jesus. God is not involved in the ways of the world, the mantel belongs to Jesus. If you were able to find a way of approaching God directly Jesus would turn on you and make you suffer for your impertinence. If you feel a strong drive to be a believer then your only recourse is to worship Jesus who rules over us all with the sanction of God. Alternatively you can choose to live according to you own sight which is how most individuals live these days. Or become a Muslim.

reply to post by Jusvistn

And though Jesus teaches these things, and then tells us to worship him.....

This whole idea comes from John, the youngest of the gospels---written some 120 yrs after Jesus's lifetime---and from Paul, who never even met the man and was in fact at odds with the original leaders of the church who DID know Jesus---such as Peter. (The gospel of John, incidentally, was considered heretical for a very long time before it was included in the canon.)

So the whole "I am the way and the light" is a fairly late idea. If you read the older gospels (Matthew is the oldest of the canonical gospels; the non-canonical Thomas is possibly the oldest extant gospel of all, and though its age is still disputed in scholarly circles it is agreed that it is almost certainly younger than John) this idea doesn't occur, it is all about worshiping GOD, and doing the right thing. Jesus was all about GOD. John and Paul were all about Jesus.

If you're interested, I highly recommend a site called Early Christian Writings, which has various translations and commentary on virtually every early Christian document out there, from 30 AD to AD 250. It's a fabulous site for anyone interested in early Christianity.

reply to post by cass1dy09



Then you should get your study on then because they forgot to tell you those from 1600B.C were copies of copies....just saying.....OH AND LET ME REPEAT MYSELF,NOT TRYING TO CONVINCE ANYONE,MY OPINION,MINE!

Originally posted by Shema
Or become a Muslim.

Uncalled for...........

reply to post by NihilistSanta


Have you studied the Kabbalah?

reply to post by Jusvistn


what

if

it's

not.. ?

Jesus never said he was God.


He said it was the father in him that did the works.

Matter fact he would have told you not to worship him.

When he said to see him was to see God...he meant his nature.
Kindness, Forgiveness, Love, Compassion.

Originally posted by Shema
Jesus exists, no question. So does God but it is Jesus the world belongs to even though God originally created it He has given it to Jesus. God is not involved in the ways of the world, the mantel belongs to Jesus. If you were able to find a way of approaching God directly Jesus would turn on you and make you suffer for your impertinence. If you feel a strong drive to be a believer then your only recourse is to worship Jesus who rules over us all with the sanction of God. Alternatively you can choose to live according to you own sight which is how most individuals live these days. Or become a Muslim.

If Jesus existed (past tense) he would have been Jewish. They called him 'Rabbi.' He would have lived and died a Jew. Jesus could never have been a Christian. Simply by the luck of geographical location of his birth, he was Jewish.
Similarly, had you been born in India you probably would be a Hindu. In Tibet, a Buddhist. In Iran, a Muslim.

The statement you make above does little but show rote preaching. There's nothing of substance in there.
Oh, I'm a bad person because I don't embrace the first-through-fifth century adaptations of bad translations of Bronze age stories. I love the fables of Aesop the slave. Good morals and stuff. Ravens talking to Foxes and stuff. Never happened, but good morals.

The assertion: "Jesus exists, no question." is simply not true. You cannot prove it. There are no contemporary writings about him.
His birth story is borrowed. His death wasn't spectacularly different from any other death under the rule of Rome.
The resurrection, taken literally, would have been one of the most spectacular, and novel occurrences on the planet at the time, and the only people who felt compelled to tell us about it were monks a hundred or more years later? Nobody at the time felt the urge to write it down?

That he is any sort of deity is almost laughable. That his father was a deity is no different to the story of Perseus.
Is your god the same god as Zeus?
You explain why Zeus doesn't exist, and I'll use the same logic to explain why yours doesn't.

This has been a fascinating thread, but I feel your post was not one of the fascinating bits.
Spouting hell-fire and damnation is best suited to carnival tents.

If Jesus rules over us with the sanction of god, then I'm a bit surprised that we're all still being really unpleasant to one another. Not doing much to set us straight, is he?
Or is that all under the catch-all of "Free Will"? That's a good one, that one.

I bet...I just bet....that there's bits of the Bible you ignore, but other parts are "the word of the lord" or some such rot.

In one sense this is quite simple.

Either you believe He is real (a few hours of doubt every week notwithstanding), or you believe He is a deception.

If He is a deception then why not find something else, like Buddha, or Krishna or Mohammed, or perhaps atheism?

Then why still bother with the Christian reading of Jesus?

And this is not a question just for somebody else, but also to me.

reply to post by halfoldman


People cannot accept the simple truths that Jesus taught ,they have to create their own gods or Jesus instead of conforming to the life and ideas of Christ. This way they can act as they want without having to repent, or perhaps they still think there is a magical answer or knowledge that they are in pursuit of that will bring out their inner god without all the hard work of compassion, charity, love, devotion, honesty, selflessness etc