"The Rod for the Disobedient" - Wife Beating in Islam

Originally posted by magma
reply to post by andy06shake

 

Physical violence is not ok.

Defending yourself is.

Hope that clears the whole thing up.

I would consider what you're defending against. ie real life and death, yourself and a child. Or is it self defense to physically assault a woman who hits you?

Some things are just reactions and not really helpful, just grows the dysfunction, instead of trying to reach to any embers of Love and Goodness and bring out the best in people or simply withdraw from a situation where there is no common sense.

I would not hit someone who was hitting me, unless it was serious. And I had to find a way to escape being seriously harmed.

reply to post by Trueman


You don't have to be Islamic to do that in my state.
So long as the rod or stick is no larger than your thumb.
I can see men everywhere now trying to "google" thumb enlargement excercises.

reply to post by intrepid

Sidetracking? What? Someone mentioned what Mohammed said centuries ago and I brought up something from a few decades ago. I guess my quote there make perfect sense.

yes, i mentioned a sermon muhammad gave centuries ago. it is held as a revelation from god. you, however, brought up the fact that some men in america beat their wives.

with islam it is considered the right thing to do, whereas in america it is considered illegal and immoral. it still happens in america (to a much lesser extent), but it is acknowledged to be WRONG and punishable by law; where islam encourages it. there is a huge difference.

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
reply to post by magma

 

It is a criminal act in your world. In another part of the world it is culture. But of course you are god.. right...

ahh, the old "cultural relativity" spiel. in short, it doesn't fly because it holds that two mutually exclusive ideas both be true. for example, what if one culture believes that it is their right to rape, pillage, and kill all other cultures into submissiveness because they are superior? would you see them coming for your women and say "meh, it's their culture, so it's fine"?

there is a difference between a criminal act (law) and an immoral act (morality). beating women might be legal in some countries, but it is not moral anywhere.

So in your view , the immoral culture, should be adjusted to suit the moral one?

Who am I to say what is right or wrong in somebody elses culture.

However, if somebody threatens my cultural belief system of course I will stand up and repeal.

I am not going out to seek cultural change though. Would you like me to knock on your door and suggest to you that your way is wrong?

reply to post by Unity_99


"I would consider what you're defending against. ie real life and death, yourself and a child. Or is it self defense to physically assault a woman who hits you?"

I think being in any relationship where ether sex is physically assaulting the other is a silly notion in the first place.

That being said I have had an ex girlfriend come at me in the past wielding a hot iron and also cut up all my clothes, to be honest I was more peeved about the cutting up of my clothing part since she was not that hard to disarm and I did not need a stick! LoL

I think what im defending against is misogynistic cultures, and the Islamic nation of Saudi Arabia most certainly fits that particular bill!

Originally posted by Unity_99

Originally posted by magma
reply to post by andy06shake

 

Physical violence is not ok.

Defending yourself is.

Hope that clears the whole thing up.

I would consider what you're defending against. ie real life and death, yourself and a child. Or is it self defense to physically assault a woman who hits you?

Some things are just reactions and not really helpful, just grows the dysfunction, instead of trying to reach to any embers of Love and Goodness and bring out the best in people or simply withdraw from a situation where there is no common sense.

I would not hit someone who was hitting me, unless it was serious. And I had to find a way to escape being seriously harmed.

You do have a right to make a choice. If someone is beating on you man or woman and you have exhausted all other possibilities, you are entitled to defend yourself. How you do that is your choice.

If someone hit me, then - am going to immobolise the threat so I do not get hit again.

reply to post by magma

So in your view , the immoral culture, should be adjusted to suit the moral one? Who am I to say what is right or wrong in somebody elses culture. However, if somebody threatens my cultural belief system of course I will stand up and repeal. I am not going out to seek cultural change though. Would you like me to knock on your door and suggest to you that your way is wrong?

immoral acts should be changed, whether their origins are in culture or no. why should an act be allowed simply because it has its base in a traditon? i would also like to point out that it isn't a cultural thing in this instance, but a religious one.

yes. if i have done something wrong (especially when it involves hurting another) i would want someone to confront me about it.

you seem to imply that a person stopping a man from beating a woman is equivalent to a person requiring others to eat only mexican food because that is what their culture does. the spices one puts in food is a cultural issue that has no bearing on morality, whereas beating another individual into submission is a moral issue.

reply to post by Bob Sholtz


I agree with you.

The question is who has the right to determine what's moral?

Cultural evolution sets benchmarks. Democratic voices ensure those benchmarks remain intact.

So in this instance, social or specifically religeous structure become the driver to maintain the benchmark.

And the solution?

Get a stick and beat them into the new way of morality?

I don't understand what you're trying to say with this video. You're message is misleading many people who read this topic. The rod is not for beating women just as the sheikh said in the video, He said that many people does it but that the Koran (Islams scripture) discourages men to beat their women harshly. Some scholars have said that you can beat her with a napkin or a toothpick, would that hurt? No! it would only convey a message, nothing else.

Before you make a post, watch the video for God's sake. There are people who suffer from illnesses that could only be treated with beatings (sadism, masochism). The Koran solves every issues that a human being can have, and you being ignorant to that fact is very sad.

The video is greatly organised and the man speaks well. He never encouraged anyone to beat their wife harshly or with rods. The message you're sending is gravely wrong and misjudged. You're a parasite to society.

reply to post by magma

suitable morality can be determined through reason.

i believe you are confusing morality with law slightly. if i were to witness a man beating a woman in a country where it was legal, i would do my best to stop the man. i would say it is the duty of anyone who witnesses, or has knowledge of an immoral act, to intervene in the most suitable manner.

Originally posted by Misbah
He said that many people does it but that the Koran (Islams scripture) discourages men to beat their women harshly. Some scholars have said that you can beat her with a napkin or a toothpick, would that hurt? No! it would only convey a message, nothing else.

The point is that a grown woman shouldn't be hit or beaten at all .. for any reason ... by anyone.
The excuse 'it isn't supposed to hurt her' is pathetic.
OF COURSE it hurts her. It hurts physically. It hurts emotionally.
Wife beating ... be it a little or a lot ... is the act of a cowardly man.

The Koran solves every issues that a human being can have, and you being ignorant to that fact is very sad..

Oh really? What about the issue of women being beaten by misogynistic men who want to control them as objects instead of respecting them as equal human beings who do not deserve to be hit by anyone?? As for your comment about ignorance .... :shk: .... that's all I'll say on that.

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by andy06shake

Originally posted by intrepid
This must be a young crowd. We are only about 60 years removed from when giving your wife a bearing wasn't even cause for the cops to show up. But they're Muslim so why let a thing like facts get in the way of a good hating?

It's called progress mate!

Something these dudes sadly lack IMHO.

Really? Seeing as Christianity predate Islam by centuries and we just stopped beating our women 60 years ago I'd say that our progress was might slow in comparison.

Show me in what part of the Bible says men can beat women. I don't remember any part that says so. Where did you get the "60 years" reference?, Men beating wifes happened regardless their religion. What we see in this thread is a religion legalizing these actions and teaching how to do that.

Originally posted by Misbah
I don't understand what you're trying to say with this video. You're message is misleading many people who read this topic. The rod is not for beating women just as the sheikh said in the video, He said that many people does it but that the Koran (Islams scripture) discourages men to beat their women harshly. Some scholars have said that you can beat her with a napkin or a toothpick, would that hurt? No! it would only convey a message, nothing else.

Before you make a post, watch the video for God's sake. There are people who suffer from illnesses that could only be treated with beatings (sadism, masochism). The Koran solves every issues that a human being can have, and you being ignorant to that fact is very sad.

The video is greatly organised and the man speaks well. He never encouraged anyone to beat their wife harshly or with rods. The message you're sending is gravely wrong and misjudged. You're a parasite to society.

Hey, all I can tell you is if one of these guys show me that stick, I'll personally will make him eat it and help him to find "another" exit for it.

reply to post by Trueman


You know I Googled the hell out of that to find "beating" women but couldn't find it. Sorry. Stoning them to death is HUGE in the Bible though.

ETA: Women are supposed to be subservient to men even in the New Testament. Yes I can provide biblical texts if you need them.

reply to post by intrepid


or burning them, dont forget the Christians like to BURN people.

Originally posted by intrepid
reply to post by Trueman

 

You know I Googled the hell out of that to find "beating" women but couldn't find it. Sorry. Stoning them to death is HUGE in the Bible though.

Stoning to death is not a christian invention. You need to research more. I remember a part when Jesus defended a prostitute from getting stoned. I don't know what book you are reading, not the Bible for sure.

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.--Num.31:15-19

After Judah pays Tamar for her services, he is told that she "played the harlot" and "is with child by whoredom." When Judah hears this, he says, "Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." 38:24

If a man has sex with an engaged slave woman, scourge the woman, but don't punish the man. (Even if he raped her?) 19:20-22

# Women with "familiar spirits" are to be stoned to death. 20:27

A priest's daughter who "plays the whore" is to be burned to death. 21:9

The Law of Jealousies. If a man suspects his wife of being unfaithful, he reports it to the priest. The priest then makes her drink some "bitter water." If she is guilty, the water makes her thigh rot and her belly swell. If innocent, no harm done -- the woman is free and will "conceive seed." In any case, "the man shall be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity." 5:11-31


"And the spirit of jealousy come upon him ... and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him ... and she be not defiled."
If a husband is jealous, his wife must submit to the law of jealousies whether she was "defiled" or not. 5:14

reply to post by intrepid

You know I Googled the hell out of that to find "beating" women but couldn't find it. Sorry. Stoning them to death is HUGE in the Bible though.

i've been thinking about that and other "laws" and restrictions in the old testament, and i find many of them completely opposite of christ's example.

methinks some of those laws were of human contrivance, though i am unsure. i mean seriously, moses was gone for a few days when they all decided "screw it, we're making a golden calf and worshiping it".

i can see some of them as being logical for sanitation purposes, but others are not consistent with an unchanging god. people mixing and matching i suppose, what else is new.

Originally posted by WilsonWilson
reply to post by intrepid

 

or burning them, dont forget the Christians like to BURN people.

No christians do that today. You are trying to give an excuse for this horrible muslim practice. Very silly. According to you muslims can beat wifes because christians used to burn people.

reply to post by WilsonWilson


That is very ignorant. Moses wasn't christian. Old testament is not about christian people.