I Converted A Catholic To Atheism

Originally posted by anthonycooper
hello all, i am the friend afterinfinity has been speaking about. Nice to meet you.

I wonder if you believe my friend Afterinfinity when he tells you that I have converted from a Catholic to an atheist. Well I really have converted from a web of contradictions, called the Catholic church, to an emotionally healthier way. After decades of life as a bewildered and confused religious, I'd just about given up, then I met AI. And you see this guy really put things in perspective. This guy comes along with a simple layman's explanation on church dogma and how it obviously is not providing me the answers I am looking for in life. we have spent much time discussing religion and the occult and many esoteric and philosophical subjects, delving into ideas i had never really considered. I told him after a final hour long chat with him on the subject that I was now embracing atheism because it’s long overdue in my life after many years of research into all the other world belief systems. And it is the only logical conclusion after this research. My awareness in the matter has led me to this decision, and I believe it is the best choice for me.

If you have any questions, please keep them simple and I will be happy to answer as well as I am able.

*eye poke* (I wasnt lyin!)

I feel the catholic church is quite an intriguing organization. I would love to be able to explore the artifacts they have collected over the years (not going to happen, obviously).

I think most churches do not encourage a personal exploration of these things, the catholic church included. It is not necessarily in their best interests to do so. If you have to go to "x" for all of the answers, then it creates a debt of sorts as well as control.

Every single one of us has more to learn, and the different stages of that process can be distinctly different. Its a pretty cool thing if you can just buckle up, enjoy the ride, and learn/grow as much as you can along the way.

There you have it, folks. The post directly above this one is my friend speaking to all of you, personally, about his transition. I hope it satisfies at least some of you.

ETA: okay, the last post on the previous page. Sorry. Blame Serdgiam, not me. Such punctual timing...

reply to post by anthonycooper


So it's true then! AI is just as much of a trouble maker in real life as he is on ATS!

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Sorry.

Sometimes, I am just so awesome the universe can barely contain me. This warps the fabric of space-time.

In reality, you probably posted YEARS before me, but because of the sheer gravity of the awesomesauce I dish out, it can get a little strange.

reply to post by windword

So it's true then! AI is just as much of a trouble maker in real life as he is on ATS!

I don't make trouble. I attract it. I exude a very special type of gravity that warps karma, pulling all of the chaotic energy directly to my doorstep. Makes life rather interesting, to tell you the truth.

Anyway, my friend has spoken. Like he said, questions are welcome, but let's not get too complicated as you have no idea the difficulties he had making that post. I was there, and I'm still cringing at the painstaking process even after it's been over for at least a half hour.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by windword

 

So it's true then! AI is just as much of a trouble maker in real life as he is on ATS!

I don't make trouble. I attract it. I exude a very special type of gravity that warps karma, pulling all of the chaotic energy directly to my doorstep. Makes life rather interesting, to tell you the truth.

LOL, you know, I kid, I kid.

Anyway, my friend has spoken. Like he said, questions are welcome, but let's not get too complicated as you have no idea the difficulties he had making that post. I was there, and I'm still cringing at the painstaking process even after it's been over for at least a half hour.

edit on 17-6-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

I got no questions. I believed your claim, at face value.

I never thought you were lying...

Seriously, two people talking just unraveled the mysteries of the Universe?

One comment to the newest member of there is "No God Club".

In your worst moments in this life. Just remember...

Go ahead and drop to your knees and cry out to God.

You see, the beautiful part about it is...God already forgave you.

*Note: God is not to popular here at the world's largest collection of skeptics.

reply to post by colbe

Everything points to a creator, look how complicated 99.8% of creation is, the universe didn't just happen. And then what? Who keeps it running? Creation, the universe runs by itself....right.

Yep! "Creation" is far too "complicated" for us to determine, at this time, how and why "it" all began. That's why your "simple solution" REQUIRES FAITH.

I've shared my conversion/reversion came about because of prophecy, also called "private revelation" so I have a strong faith.

I haven't had a "conversion/reversion", or a "private revelation", yet. That might be why I don't have any faith in the idea that a "God", of your definition, exists.

What made you feel that YOUR "private revelation" should also be mine?

All of prophecy, Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox keeps shouting out to everyone, time is short, look toward Jesus, find Him if you haven't, get your soul right with God.

Not quite. Only the people that BELIEVE in a particular "prophecy" shout.

Have you ever heard:
"To thine own self, be true"

I'm not willing to violate that, at your discretion.

Atheism, to me is so lonely, who could stand it?

I wouldn't know. I'm NOT an atheist. Maybe, that's why so many atheists want to "shut down" the competition.

God bless you

Thank you! I may not have "THE FAITH", but I DO HAVE SOME HOPE.

See ya,
Milt

reply to post by whyamIhere

Seriously, two people talking just unraveled the mysteries of the Universe?

Deciding whether or not you recognize a god is not synonymous to unraveling "the mysteries of the universe". In my opinion, there are much deeper and more relevant questions to be answered to that end.

One comment to the newest member of there is "No God Club".

In your worst moments in this life. Just remember...

Go ahead and drop to your knees and cry out to God.

You see, the beautiful part about it is...God already forgave you.

Neither of us needs a god for hope. But I'm sure he will have his own opinion to voice in the matter.

*Note: God is not to popular here at the world's largest collection of skeptics.

I am a bigger fan of self-realization than spiritual dependence.

reply to post by whyamIhere


i dont believe in a god, why would i need one to forgive me? duh.

Have you wondered that he may have just jumped from one extreme to another? He seems to be a spiritual person (believes in the afterlife, mysticism e.t.c) but isn't comfortable with the idea of a 'God' for whatever reasons. Perhaps you've just enlightened him to how absurd the definite boundaries and rules that accompany a religion and it's belief system are, and this has caused him to recoil back into a safe position of an 'atheist' because it seems like the 'box' he should place himself in for now.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, maybe your friend should just let go of 'boxes' and 'labels' altogether and determine for himself a belief system that isn't objectively enforced.

I say this because on the contrary I was an atheist (stone-cold) for a long time of my life (up to about a year ago, I am almost 24 years old). This is because I always excelled in mathematics/science and generally anything logic based and quickly learned to understand how reality worked around me without the need for introducing a God or creation story. However, during the course of my life multiple experiences have left me at the stage where I realise it's actually more ridiculous to claim there is absolutely nothing divine/supernatural about/within/outside of reality than to claim there is. I have experienced supernatural 'entities', along with friends of mine, I have taken substances that have revealed to me higher levels of reality and feelings/emotions and connections that cannot be put into tangible words or simplified to rational explanations (BELIEVE ME I've tried - my atheist days weren't for nothing, I've developed a rigorous technique for establishing the truth by observing both sides of any argument), I have had dreams that are synchronized in manners that simple coincidence is simply not good enough of an explanation and so forth and so forth. On my own account this isn't a lot of evidence, but then coupled with the fact that many of my very close friends have had experinces and encounters that blow modern science out of the water and explode the whole 'what we see is what there is' ideology into absolute dust as well, I start to really question the nature of this reality these days.

I understand that atheism in it's coldest sense is the belief of no deity. The problem with this is that what we consider a deity is purely a product of semantics and this is dangerous. That is to say, when people say they are atheist, they are usually saying they don't believe in the deities proposed by the main religions, as opposed to saying they don't believe in any higher force or power behind the universe. These are two quite different things, and although I do think it's healthy to unshackle your mind from this idea that there is this ONE SUPREME HUMAN LIKE RULER who judges all your actions and sends you to a good/bad place ala reward system I also think its VERY UNHEALTHY to completely disconnect yourself from anything spiritual and say 'I shall only believe in what I see, breathe and touch and unless scientifically proven nothing else matters'.

What I'm trying to get that is aslong as you are placing yourself into boxes i.e I'm a 'Christian'/'Muslim'/'Atheist', then you are walking further away from the truth than towards it - even if you are an atheist. This is because when you start telling yourself you are 'something' you form and mould your very own ego to comply with this, and you WILL SUBCONSCIOUSLY bend and warp information you receive to match this status quo you created for yourself. Yes, even as an atheist you are hindering your own knowledge and intellect by making yourself believe that there is no higher force in the universe because of your anti-religious attitude. Do you understand my point?

I think it is much more important for one to be free of labels, and to simply have a personal answer to a question as big as this. For example, I understand to quite a good degree how many physical processes of the universe work, and I can see how it all fits together in many ways and so forth, and to someone who may label themselves an atheist at this point I could easily conclude that the only knowledge I need to further gain is that of how our universe works and everything else is irrelevant. This is actually the position most atheists take (anything spiritual is nonsense, anything paranormal is nonsense, anything to do with psycaedelics is just random drug effects, UFO abductions are nonsense e.t.c) and in fact all it really creates is a really narrow-minded and naive person who believes they have the answers that other narrow-minded and naive people don't lol. It is quite a funny situation, and infact it's becoming sligthtly worrying as atheism is becoming trendy and cool.

So yeah, it's good your friend is free of a strict belief system but you should help him also realise that calling yourself an atheist isn't the solution and that the real answers or clues require more than just following an ideology.

reply to post by DazDaKing

I guess what I'm trying to say is, maybe your friend should just let go of 'boxes' and 'labels' altogether and determine for himself a belief system that isn't objectively enforced.

Atheism only determines one aspect - there is no god. He understands that.

So yeah, it's good your friend is free of a strict belief system but you should help him also realise that calling yourself an atheist isn't the solution and that the real answers or clues require more than just following an ideology.

I never said it was a solution. However, atheism removes the one hindrance that anchors all of these practices and approaches and ideals that are self-denigrating and subjugating. In denying any and all gods, we have both opened ourselves to the possibilities that we can realize as human beings. No more shame, no more debt, no more blinders. Besides, if he were to believe in the god he was raised to respect, he would be forced to accept that he is condemned by those standards. He's gay, he's not repentant, he will not change his homosexuality, he is therefore damned.

You seem to think he is restricted in being an atheist. He really isn't. There's loads of beliefs and ideas that don't require a god to be valid, and he has looked into many of them. He has also had every opportunity to examine the Bible at length and take note of its contradictions and fallacies, having grown up intimately situated with such materials and those who preach them. He has years worth of reasons to reject any and all gods, Judaic and otherwise. Years. This has nothing to do with labels. Labels are a clumsy means of expressing how he feels, and how I feel. I have a better way with words, fortunately (or so he tells me). That's how I was able to explain things in such a way that he felt comfortable with his skepticism, and finally decided to capitalize on it.

So...yeah. He's no more restricted now than he was as a Catholic. In fact, he now has certain freedoms that Catholicism didn't afford him, ideologies and concepts that any self-respecting Catholic would shun with great prejudice and disdain. Not to worry, he loves exploring this stuff and he no longer has to worry about damnation as a result. What god is there to condemn him?

Thanks for participating.

reply to post by DazDaKing


Oh and to follow my previous reply above, I thought I should just add that if I DID have to label myself, it would be an agnostic atheist. I honestly believe that being a gnostic atheist is just as bad as some of the religions out there, if not worse. Though I must admit it is VERY HARD to see this when you are riding the wave of being an atheist. It takes personal experiences to 'wake you up'.

However, I do believe that science is taking us towards a point where we shall have to tango with the ideas of spiritual forces and such soon. We already know by principle of science that we only decode the TINIEST OF FRACTIONS of actual reality. We also know that THE MAJORITY OF OUR UNIVERSE contains matter that DOESN'T INTERACT WITH LIGHT!

That's to say, we know for a FACT practically that we are surrounded by PHYSICAL MATTER that doesn't interact with our medium of sense (EM/Light). Yet, 'atheists'/men of cold-hard evidence and science STILL have a hard time even COMPREHENDING the possibility of importance outside our everyday observable reality.

Or how about the fact that science now proposes a multi-verse theory? That there is up to an infinite amount of parallel universes? This theory was created solely in light of the fact that changing just one of our fundamental four forces by even 1% means NONE OF THIS universe can happen .This made scientists realise just how fine tuned our existence is (not just our planet, not just our universe, but the very fundamental laws) and they couldn't explain it other than saying there are an infinite number of universes therefore one was guaranteed to have these values (because an intelligent or conscious designer is out of the question in any way shape or form). Yet, the official scientific hypothesis now sounds JUST AS CRAZY as a God lol. Infinite parallel universes? Invisible matter all around us constantly?

We are trying very hard to keep hold of the current paradigm we're in regarding science and knowledge. However, there's only so long this can go on. Let's not also forget the Double Slit experiment and how MATTER ITSELF CHANGES PROPERTY from wave form to particle form and back depending on the intent of SOMEONE COLLECTING INFORMATION on the atom/sub-atomic particle. Science is showing us that there is more to this reality than we think yet we still choose to not think about it.

I don't believe in some sort of human like God who sat and thought the universe out step by step lol. But like I said my own experiences, research, knowledge and even scientific experience has left me with a strong feeling that:

1) We as humans are not alone as intelligent self-conscious creatures (not just in the universe but outside it as well)
2) We as humans (and other sentinent creatures) are not just accidental self-aware amazingly complex and efficient robots who arose by pure chance and random mutation. Perhaps nature always intended for a sentinent species? In a way we can't comprehend or understand from our perspective.
3) Our observable reality is simply one level of existence and by no means the first or the last.

On these 3 principles alone, I must conclude that there is some higher force to this all. Giving it a name such as God isn't really my style and I prefer to call it the motherfield or the matrix of life. For us to comprehend this truly would be like Niko Belic realising his existence within GTA4. It is impossible. He could spend his whole life decoding his reality and finding out it's laws and rules (just like we have with our 'video game') but he can NEVER understand what's outside the disc he is stored on, just like we can't outside the universe we're stored on.

However, I still think it's important we keep our minds and hearts open to these things and not align ourselves with any strict belief system. The best way is to keep a completely open mind and hoard as much information and knowledge that you can until you start connecting dots in a way that makes sense to yourself deep down.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

So yeah, it's good your friend is free of a strict belief system but you should help him also realise that calling yourself an atheist isn't the solution and that the real answers or clues require more than just following an ideology.

I never said it was a solution. However, atheism removes the one hindrance that anchors all of these practices and approaches and ideals that are self-denigrating and subjugating. In denying any and all gods, we have both opened ourselves to the possibilities that we can realize as human beings. No more shame, no more debt, no more blinders. Besides, if he were to believe in the god he was raised to respect, he would be forced to accept that he is condemned by those standards. He's gay, he's not repentant, he will not change his homosexuality, he is therefore damned.

You seem to think he is restricted in being an atheist. He really isn't. There's loads of beliefs and ideas that don't require a god to be valid, and he has looked into many of them. He has also had every opportunity to examine the Bible at length and take note of its contradictions and fallacies, having grown up intimately situated with such materials and those who preach them. He has years worth of reasons to reject any and all gods, Judaic and otherwise. Years. This has nothing to do with labels. Labels are a clumsy means of expressing how he feels, and how I feel. I have a better way with words, fortunately (or so he tells me). That's how I was able to explain things in such a way that he felt comfortable with his skepticism, and finally decided to capitalize on it.

So...yeah. He's no more restricted now than he was as a Catholic. In fact, he now has certain freedoms that Catholicism didn't afford him, ideologies and concepts that any self-respecting Catholic would shun with great prejudice and disdain. Not to worry, he loves exploring this stuff and he no longer has to worry about damnation as a result. What god is there to condemn him?

Thanks for participating.

edit on 17-6-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

This is exactly what I was trying to get at in my first post. I guess I failed.

This is the thing man, you are talking about 'GOD' in the context that we have grown up to know God as - i.e that of one of the Gods spoken about in the main religious texts (A judge type God). This is one of the dangers of all these labels and boxes, they set the standard for what we understand.

Now when I talk about God, I don't mean anything like that at all. No human like features in any way, including judgement. So yes, your friend is freed from the shackles of a horrible God, one who from your friends perspective and teachings would look down on him for being gay e.t.c e.t.c.

But the danger I was trying to highlight is that by becoming an Atheist he may have just closed the doors to ANY CONCEPTUALISATION of God. Thats to say, by neglecting the idea of the God taught in the standard religious texts he may have just closed his eyes to the discovery of a God that isn't mentioned in religious texts. More like the God you hear great scientists like Einstein and Planck talk about. There's ALOT of grey area here, than just black and white - religious or not religious - God or No God, because we are going on the standards of what we have been taught from school upwards rather than the WIDE AND EXTENSIVE KNOWLEDGE base that is available these days to any adult on any topic and any experience.

All I'm saying is that just because he has realised he truly doesn't believe in (or doesn't want to believe in, theres a fine line there ) the type of God taught by mainstream religions doesn't mean he should neglect the idea of a God totally, and when I use the word God I mean a HIGHER POWER/FORCE, and not a humanlike deity. Perhaps the word God is really not a good choice by me, and perhaps I shoud say don't let him give up on DIVINITY because he has seen the flaws (which I also see, I refute the main religions quite strongly!) in the mainstream religions.

That is why I say atheism can be more limiting. If a person has a very black and white view of things, and sees it as "I either believe in this Christian type God or I'm an atheist" then whatever of the two paths he takes he will walk a blinded path regardless, because the frame of reference is off from the very beginning. Like I say, I don't really understand gnostic atheism since it requires an extreme leap of faith just like the mainstream religions do. I'd rather avoid the extreme leaps of faith until I feel I cannot possibly get any closer to some sort of an answer or truth with knowledge and information (and I'm not at that stage yet ).


I honestly do believe beyond the walls of intelligence life is divine. As in, I think there might be a higher meaning or purpose to all of this than just sheer chance and coincidence. I don't know the answer man, but like I say my own experiences have lead me to think this. I may be wrong, which is why I can only label myself as an agnostic atheist for the time being, and I believe this is the most sensible path - for me atleast.
Take care man.

reply to post by DazDaKing

Or how about the fact that science now proposes a multi-verse theory? That there is up to an infinite amount of parallel universes? This theory was created solely in light of the fact that changing just one of our fundamental four forces by even 1% means NONE OF THIS universe can happen .

If there is an infinite number of parallel universes, then that means this universe had an infinite amount of chances to happen. Which means, god or no god, there was no way this universe couldn't happen. According to what you just said, every possible variation of those fundamental forces (including an altogether omission of one or more of those forces) has been realized in one or more of those alternate universes.

According to the above, it's entirely feasible that we're just an accident. We just don't know it yet. If you read all of my posts in this thread, you'll find my "random code generator" theory. Random values thrown together infinitely. Somewhere along the way, this universe had to happen with or without intelligent design. But this does not mean that we cannot give our own lives meaning. If you need a god to give yourself meaning as a human being, then I do not envy your approach to reality.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by DazDaKing

 

Or how about the fact that science now proposes a multi-verse theory? That there is up to an infinite amount of parallel universes? This theory was created solely in light of the fact that changing just one of our fundamental four forces by even 1% means NONE OF THIS universe can happen .

If there is an infinite number of parallel universes, then that means this universe had an infinite amount of chances to happen. Which means, god or no god, there was no way this universe couldn't happen. According to what you just said, every possible variation of those fundamental forces (including an altogether omission of one or more of those forces) has been realized in one or more of those alternate universes.

According to the above, it's entirely feasible that we're just an accident. We just don't know it yet. If you read all of my posts in this thread, you'll find my "random code generator" theory. Random values thrown together infinitely. Somewhere along the way, this universe had to happen with or without intelligent design. But this does not mean that we cannot give our own lives meaning. If you need a god to give yourself meaning as a human being, then I do not envy your approach to reality.

edit on 17-6-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Haha, dude you misunderstood me.

That's exactly what I just said in short form. As in, the scientists HAD TO ADOPT the infinite universe theory to explain that fact (with the rationale you just wrote out in long form). My point was though that we are stretching and stretching ourselves to preserve this current paradigm that requires absolutely no supernatural/divine explanation in any way to anything we observe or see.

Even if we take this extremely farfetched idea (we are now claiming universes spontaneously form out the 'void' constantly from the beginning of time in every possible form and configuration yet with absolutely no explanation to where the matter arises from or what governs the process of time outside our universe) it still in no way shape or form deals with more pressing questions such as the origin of consciousness. It is simply a cop-out theory for the time being.

I don't know man, I just have a strong feeling that there is more to this than sheer chance. I would write out a more well thought and convincing argument but I am in a rush to go somewhere in a second. However, tomorrow I'll write a better structured reply with some geniunely interesting questions I'd like you to tackle with, as they are questions that gave me absolute nightmares and still do.

I must also say that I still largely believe that a lot of the universe was natural unfolding with the prescribed boundary conditions and initial starting information it contained, but I believe when we bring in issues such as consciousness, out of body experiences, astral projection (it's all happened to me), interdimensional entities (yep been there, so have several friends), sleep paralysis demons (yep, been there, 1000s upon 1000s of people see the same shadow like creature toying with them at night in similar experiences, believe me it's not just a dream or nightmare), e.t.c e.t.c we have to start also considering the possibility that there are entities above (and possibly below us) in existence and thus the existence of different planes of reality and ultimately the existence of forces or intelligences that drive this whole process behind the veil and yet cannot ever be oberserved by principle of science =].

reply to post by anthonycooper


Would you ever consider going back to believing a god? Any god, not the Christian one.

reply to post by anthonycooper

hello all, i am the friend afterinfinity has been speaking about. Nice to meet you.

Hi "anthonycooper". It's nice to meet you, as well! and a star for you.

If you have any questions, please keep them simple and I will be happy to answer as well as I am able.

Why do you feel the need to be part of a "peer group" that shares a common philosophy? It seems that you only joined a different "Church"!

See ya,
Milt

Originally posted by anthonycooper
hello all, i am the friend afterinfinity has been speaking about. Nice to meet you.

I wonder if you believe my friend Afterinfinity when he tells you that I have converted from a Catholic to an atheist. Well I really have converted from a web of contradictions, called the Catholic church, to an emotionally healthier way. After decades of life as a bewildered and confused religious, I'd just about given up, then I met AI. We have known each other a couple years, and you see this guy really put things in perspective. This guy comes along with a simple layman's explanation on church dogma and how it obviously is not providing me the answers I am looking for in life. we have spent much time discussing religion and the occult and many esoteric and philosophical subjects, delving into ideas i had never really considered. I told him after a final hour long chat with him on the subject that I was now embracing atheism because it’s long overdue in my life after many years of research into all the other world belief systems. And it is the only logical conclusion after this research. My awareness in the matter has led me to this decision, and I believe it is the best choice for me.

You would call a 'conversionist' of your mind/soul/body a friend; and not a manipulator of your apparent "I AM COMPLETEY AT A LOSS (and open to just about anything in my weakness of WILL to be able to determine for myself). What an admission. Let me guess, you met 'this man' at a gravesite (a couple of years ago) or a soup kitchen as volunteers, or the grocery store YOU asking directions to "PRODUCE". Or AI was wearing a sandwich sign on a street corner declaring "come yea hither I can hypnotise you into believing anything; I work for Food." How many hours (minutes did it take to convert you); what is nature of your friendship and where do you worship atheism now as a formidible force to be reconned with as Group of 2 (in your area). I dont believe a word of your post or sincereity and why you were put up to it.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


Yeah, I'm a bit skeptical too. Seems like an awful lot of trouble to sign up in December only to post for the first time 6 months later.

Also, to do a complete 180 from believing in a god to no god at all so fast is a little suspicious too. I may be wrong, but the whole situation is giving off strange vibes in my opinion.