Sanctification

We are saved unto good works, we are saved for the purpose of good works, but we are not saved by our good works, or kept saved by our good works, or not upon any promise you might make along those lines, but upon Christ’s righteousness and your faith in Christ’s faithful sacrifice on your behalf. It is at that point of your belief that God through his power from on high or what is called holy spirit sets you apart. Most have the idea that sanctification means to become progressively less sinful, therefore, progressively more holy down through the course of time through the avenue of either their promise or performance, their conduct or commitment. Relative righteousness comes into play as we try to sanctify ourselves according to what we perceive in our judicial minds, relative righteousness based, as to be righteous. Therefore, we stop doing some things, and we start doing some other things and we begin to believe that we are a prize package especially if we can relate and be connected to a large group doing the same thing. That is self-sanctification.

reply to post by newnature

I agree with those statements, because I know where they come from.
Those who don't will probably want you to go further back and explain what they're based on.
As they stand, they could be in for a rocky time.

reply to post by DISRAELI

actually, the concepts in the OP scare the crap outta me
and i think it's best that i just leave him in his error.

reply to post by tinhattribunal

Actually the concepts in the OP are fairly standard evangelical teaching.
They haven't been translated out of Christian jargon, so maybe that's what you find scary.

reply to post by newnature

We are saved unto good works,

We are saved, or come under the protection of God, in that through His son, the church was brought into being.

we are saved for the purpose of good works,

We are brought into membership of the church to be righteous.

but we are not saved by our good works,

We are saved by the work of God, who empowered Jesus as His servant, and provides the power for us to become His sons and daughters.

or kept saved by our good works, or not upon any promise you might make along those lines,

Paul was critical of reliance on "works of the law" as a bases of righteousness, but was not critical of the righteousness that comes through faith in Jesus Christ. That is actually fundamental, and what he meant when he talked about justification, which is becoming "justified" as in straightened out to conform with the pattern of God's measure.
Sanctification in the New Testament is always talking about the church, and not about an individual. But our entering into the church through repentance and baptism is entering into this thing that is holy to God.

but upon Christ’s righteousness and your faith in Christ’s faithful sacrifice on your behalf.

The faith is based on those things, which are the foundations of the church. To be ultimately "saved" as in passing through judgment into the next life, that is based on a life that is made right with God through turning away from sin and focusing in on doing that which is right.

It is at that point of your belief that God through his power from on high or what is called holy spirit sets you apart.

The church is what is "set apart" as the new spiritual Israel that replaces the old, failed material Israel.

Most have the idea that sanctification means to become progressively less sinful, therefore, progressively more holy down through the course of time through the avenue of either their promise or performance, their conduct or commitment. Relative righteousness comes into play as we try to sanctify ourselves according to what we perceive in our judicial minds, relative righteousness based, as to be righteous. Therefore, we stop doing some things, and we start doing some other things and we begin to believe that we are a prize package especially if we can relate and be connected to a large group doing the same thing. That is self-sanctification.

Bad ideas about sanctification comes from people not understanding that sanctification, according to Paul, is applied to the church, and is not an individual thing.

Originally posted by newnature
We are saved unto good works, we are saved for the purpose of good works, but we are not saved by our good works, or kept saved by our good works, or not upon any promise you might make along those lines, but upon Christ’s righteousness and your faith in Christ’s faithful sacrifice on your behalf. It is at that point of your belief that God through his power from on high or what is called holy spirit sets you apart. Most have the idea that sanctification means to become progressively less sinful, therefore, progressively more holy down through the course of time through the avenue of either their promise or performance, their conduct or commitment. Relative righteousness comes into play as we try to sanctify ourselves according to what we perceive in our judicial minds, relative righteousness based, as to be righteous. Therefore, we stop doing some things, and we start doing some other things and we begin to believe that we are a prize package especially if we can relate and be connected to a large group doing the same thing. That is self-sanctification.

So what do you suppose we do after we believe in Christ? Nothing? Continue to be sinful? Please share what we are supposed to actually do after we believe in Christ?

What are you supposed to do after you believe in Christ?

reply to post by jmdewey60

Dear jmdewey60,

You are far my superior in discussions such as this so I ask for help in explaining these verses which seem to indicate the sanctification can be individua, and not limited to the Churchl:

And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor 6:11)

For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality. (1 Thess 4:2-3)

Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if a man cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work. (2 Tim 2:20-21)

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

Perhaps I can mediate a little here.
There seems to be a double message in Paul;
a) You ARE sanctified, set apart for God like the vessels in the Temple.
b) Therefore you need to live up to that status, ie to sanctify yourselves.

This paradox comes out well in 1 Corinthians ch6 v7; you must clear out the old leaven because you are already "unleavened" (AZUMOI).
What Paul says to the church here can also be applied to individuals; we ought to live up to our "sanctified" status.
So arguably you are both right.

reply to post by charles1952

. . . these verses which seem to indicate the sanctification can be individual, and not limited to the Church . . .

Earlier I was saying "according to Paul", since this is where we get this sort of doctrine of sanctification from.
1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians are authentic Paul writings, while the so-called Timothy letters are pseudo-Paul, and not really very close to the authentic Paul, while other pseudo-Paul writings like Colossians and Ephesians may be closer.
The writer here seems to be using an analogy to persuade people to try to be a better person, and ends up throwing in the same word as used in the verse from 1 Corinthians, but is hardly a proper Pauline teaching on sanctification (though the writer may be trying to copy one).

The two passages from the authentic Paul writings are addressing two churches, as indicated in the two letters. He makes a statement in each address concerning sanctification, and along with that gives instructions on part of what that means in a particular way, relevant to that congregation.
If you were listening to this letter being read by a messenger from Paul, you may want to take those instructions into consideration on an individual bases, if you see them as applying to yourself.
Though you take the applicable recommendation as an individual, you see the motivational part as applying to your etire congregation that you are a part of, that you as a group were dedicated (the very existence of this congregation) to holiness to God.

reply to post by DISRAELI

b) Therefore you need to live up to that status, ie to sanctify yourselves.

I think this is why (like I already said in two posts, being understood as an individual rather than a group thing) there is so much confusion on this idea of sanctification, because (as you mentioned in an earlier post, these are "fairly standard evangelical teaching") this has become a tradition in Protestantism where the justification by faith idea is also pushed into a completely wrong concept.

Justification (according to this human theory) becomes a one-time event to a person, so the meaning of justification is completely stripped away, leaving sanctification as an alternative concept to be bent from its original meaning to take the part of the now neutered justification concept.

The way to fix this problem is to recognize that there is no one-time event where an individual is instantly and permanently "saved". Now the New Testament obviously does teach salvation but it is through the work of Jesus in establishing his church, and then we share in that salvation by entering into the church by faith. That starts as a belief in Jesus that leads to repentance and baptism. Once in the church, a person is justified, meaning brought into conformity with a type of godliness through faith, which at this stage means a way of life in the spirit from God, that comes to us through Christ. So, in Evangelical terms, what is normally thought of as sanctification is actually the proper way to understand justification. And sanctification is the general status of the church itself, with our symbolically taking that status ourselves through baptism as we join it.

Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by newnature
We are saved unto good works, we are saved for the purpose of good works, but we are not saved by our good works, or kept saved by our good works, or not upon any promise you might make along those lines, but upon Christ’s righteousness and your faith in Christ’s faithful sacrifice on your behalf. It is at that point of your belief that God through his power from on high or what is called holy spirit sets you apart. Most have the idea that sanctification means to become progressively less sinful, therefore, progressively more holy down through the course of time through the avenue of either their promise or performance, their conduct or commitment. Relative righteousness comes into play as we try to sanctify ourselves according to what we perceive in our judicial minds, relative righteousness based, as to be righteous. Therefore, we stop doing some things, and we start doing some other things and we begin to believe that we are a prize package especially if we can relate and be connected to a large group doing the same thing. That is self-sanctification.

So what do you suppose we do after we believe in Christ? Nothing? Continue to be sinful? Please share what we are supposed to actually do after we believe in Christ?

What are you supposed to do after you believe in Christ?

edit on 9-6-2013 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

Great question Sac. Reading the OP.

They're stating "sanctification" comes by "faith alone." Maybe the better word instead of "sanctification" would be "justification." The Apostles taught with the help of God's grace we are justified by faith AND works. Sola Fide is one stubborn heresy, Protestants hang on to it like no other. Martin Luther came up with "Faith Alone."

"Faith" doesn't make you do anything. We have to have faith AND choose to act in obedience to God.

The RSV and NAB Bible translations, the phrase, "by faith alone", only occurs ONCE in the Bible, and that verse condemns this doctrine: "You see that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone." [James 2:24] The other error is interpreting the "works of law" in Romans 3:28 as ALL good works. From the context, it is obvious that St. Paul is referring to the Law of Moses, and the "works of law" are circumcision, eating kosher and other Jewish practices (Acts 15:1-21). St. Paul writes elsewhere in the Bible: "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love." [Galatians 5:6] St. Paul’s understanding of faith, as expressed in the Bible, includes more than a confident trust in God, but also OBEDIENCE to God (Romans 1:5). Also according to Catholic understanding, good works are not what I do but what God does through me by GRACE (Eph. 2:10; 1 Cor. 15:10; Rom 2:7), so there is no reason to boast (Eph. 2:9).

reply to post by colbe

St. Paul’s understanding of faith, as expressed in the Bible, includes more than a confident trust in God, but also OBEDIENCE to God (Romans 1:5). Also according to Catholic understanding, good works are not what I do but what God does through me by GRACE (Eph. 2:10; 1 Cor. 15:10; Rom 2:7), so there is no reason to boast (Eph. 2:9).

1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
(2011 NIV)
He was saying that his own works of righteousness, which were according to the Jewish law, was not what made him God's servant, but actually made him an enemy of the Gospel.
Grace is how one gains admittance into the real kingdom of God, which is based on the belief in Jesus, not doing works that only identify you with a sort of kingdom that is held together by so many man-made rules, and watched over and policed by other men, such as the role that he, himself, had played, enforcing that man-made "correctness".
In my quote of the above post are two citations from Ephesians 2, and it should be understood that the entire first passage of that chapter, verses 1-10, is one long sentence and single verses from it shouldn't be extracted as if they were meant to be understood alone.
Verse 13 sums up the main point of what came before it,

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

which is that through grace, although previously those gentiles were excluded from the promises and covenants of Israel by alienation, they are now included into a new type of spiritual Israel (with those new promises and covenants sealed in his own blood).

Romans 1:5,
Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name's sake.
(2011 NIV)
This looks as to be saying that the type of grace that Paul is talking about here is something connected to his own, and his associates in his work, calling to spread the Gospel, concerning special abilities granted to be able to do it, rather than him conferring onto the listeners grace to fulfill what they believe in.
Grace, my point in writing about it in this post, is used by Paul as a technical term for a sort of granting, as in dispensations handed down from the throne, for certain things, such as God recognizing you as being part of Christ, and for Paul, being appointed as an Apostle.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by colbe

 

St. Paul’s understanding of faith, as expressed in the Bible, includes more than a confident trust in God, but also OBEDIENCE to God (Romans 1:5). Also according to Catholic understanding, good works are not what I do but what God does through me by GRACE (Eph. 2:10; 1 Cor. 15:10; Rom 2:7), so there is no reason to boast (Eph. 2:9).

1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
(2011 NIV)
He was saying that his own works of righteousness, which were according to the Jewish law, was not what made him God's servant, but actually made him an enemy of the Gospel.
Grace is how one gains admittance into the real kingdom of God, which is based on the belief in Jesus, not doing works that only identify you with a sort of kingdom that is held together by so many man-made rules, and watched over and policed by other men, such as the role that he, himself, had played, enforcing that man-made "correctness".
In my quote of the above post are two citations from Ephesians 2, and it should be understood that the entire first passage of that chapter, verses 1-10, is one long sentence and single verses from it shouldn't be extracted as if they were meant to be understood alone.
Verse 13 sums up the main point of what came before it,

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

which is that through grace, although previously those gentiles were excluded from the promises and covenants of Israel by alienation, they are now included into a new type of spiritual Israel (with those new promises and covenants sealed in his own blood).

Romans 1:5,
Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name's sake.
(2011 NIV)
This looks as to be saying that the type of grace that Paul is talking about here is something connected to his own, and his associates in his work, calling to spread the Gospel, concerning special abilities granted to be able to do it, rather than him conferring onto the listeners grace to fulfill what they believe in.
Grace, my point in writing about it in this post, is used by Paul as a technical term for a sort of granting, as in dispensations handed down from the throne, for certain things, such as God recognizing you as being part of Christ, and for Paul, being appointed as an Apostle.

edit on 13-6-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

It is by God's GRACE we make it to Heaven not by ourselves. It is our cooperation with God's grace, our obedience. We are not saved by ONLY believing in Christ. It is our works too. Read James 2:24.

Luther came up with the lie of Sola Fide. There are tons of Scriptures to show we must be doers of righteousness. Sola Fide is from Martin Luther's head not God.

If you go to a PROTESTANT messenger's site, Jesus is giving Kevin Barrett teaching messages to correct
the heresies. Look to your left at the list of messages. Jesus repeats over and over you are not saved by
believing in Me alone. And you are not saved by My perfect Sacrifice on the Cross. He is speaking of the
heresy called the "imputation" heresy. Jesus' perfection, His perfect sacrifice on the Cross covers all your
sins, you're in, you are saved. Wrong. And Jesus speaks of the lie of the "prosperity gospel." In the
latest message, Jesus repeats again, the Rapture is not true.

www.hearhisheart.wordpress.com...

Originally posted by colbe
The other error is interpreting the "works of law" in Romans 3:28 as ALL good works. From the context, it is obvious that St. Paul is referring to the Law of Moses, and the "works of law" are circumcision, eating kosher and other Jewish practices (Acts 15:1-21). St. Paul writes elsewhere in the Bible: "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love." [Galatians 5:6] St. Paul’s understanding of faith, as expressed in the Bible, includes more than a confident trust in God, but also OBEDIENCE to God (Romans 1:5).

Again, people selling Martin Luther's "faith alone" say it is faith that makes you do a work, a good work so they think dismisses "works." God desires our true love, we are not robots. Faith doesn't make you do anything. Faith and works, we have to cooperate with God's grace, be obedient. I'll share some verses to confirm. Faith and works justify you, a teaching of the Church for 2000 years, even before the written Word compiled in the 4th century.

Don't believe the heresy of "faith alone." And there are other heresies that stem from Sola Fide like OSAS.

Believe Catholic teaching, God wants everyone to become Roman Catholic.

Originally posted by newnature We are saved unto good works, we are saved for the purpose of good works, but we are not saved by our good works, or kept saved by our good works, or not upon any promise you might make along those lines, but upon Christ’s righteousness and your faith in Christ’s faithful sacrifice on your behalf. It is at that point of your belief that God through his power from on high or what is called holy spirit sets you apart. Most have the idea that sanctification means to become progressively less sinful, therefore, progressively more holy down through the course of time through the avenue of either their promise or performance, their conduct or commitment. Relative righteousness comes into play as we try to sanctify ourselves according to what we perceive in our judicial minds, relative righteousness based, as to be righteous. Therefore, we stop doing some things, and we start doing some other things and we begin to believe that we are a prize package especially if we can relate and be connected to a large group doing the same thing. That is self-sanctification.

See in the underlined, you got your "faith alone" and the "imputation" heresy. Fact...

God is the reason anyone is saved, our sanctification comes by His grace. Everything good comes from God. There is more, By faith and our choices, our works are a part of justification. Cooperating with God's grace to LIVE a holy life. And what is the point to your life, to your works? What are you judged on then? Your faith alone, no! See how stupid "faith alone" and the "imputation" heresies are.

Protestants will not let go of "faith alone" or to falsely profess Jesus "imputed" His perfection and sacrifice on the Cross He did it all, so you are saved, it is nothing you DO because you are "completely depraved" (oh no, another Martin Luther heresy).

The correct teaching, God's revelation, humanity has a fallen nature but we are capable of good.

"For BY grace ARE you saved THROUGH faith; and THAT NOT of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"NOT of works, lest any man should boast."

The Grace and Faith is GODS not mans...man has absolutely ZERO to do with any part of salvation(deliverance) except "receiving it" (and it IS NOT a choice) ...it is a process not an event.NONE have "been saved"it is an infinite process..ALL are BEING saved(in their own order) completely BY and THROUGH Gods work ...NOT our works NOR our faith...how do does it manifest...

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments (will) and his commandments are not burdensome."

..in other words ..you won't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.As soon as anyone"revels" in their "good works" of their right hand it is proof they are not good works at all ... just self righteousness.NONE seek God (righteousness).... NOT ONE.

God sanctifys .separates....sets aside...that is the process only GOD can do.....come out of HER my people(Everyone) and be separate".What is "her".....babel...confusion...Babylon...the worship of words(the "confusion" of the doctrines of men that make void the word of God)....RELIGION...ALL RELIGION.Fortunately for EVERYONE all theology is wrong or this "existence" is in a heap of trouble.Christianity alone has 30,000 sects and counting ..is that unity or confusion.

God is the sovereign who is 100% in control of EVERYTHING.God is DOING it ALL...by grace through faith. Mans theology has not put God in a box.... it has put man in a box buried in a pit of religion...and it ALL smells reeeeeeeally bad...and all the theological arguments are about is...whose religion smells worse.Religion is not sanctification ...it is the epitome of foolishness.THAT is what man is being saved(delivered) from... everything else in this world(realm) is a mere pimple on a mosquitoes ass in comparison.

reply to post by colbe

It is by God's GRACE we make it to Heaven not by ourselves.

It doesn't say "heaven".
It does say that we enter the Christian equivalent of the congregation of Israel.
That is 'granted' to us, the ability to be a member, and not from being of a specific bloodline or keeping specific laws.
We are "saved" by Grace, meaning we are in that nation of Jesus' "Israel", and thus under the cloud of God's protection.

reply to post by colbe

Believe Catholic teaching, God wants everyone to become Roman Catholic.

Jesus died to save us from man-made religion.
Why substitute one cult for another?
Being a big cult does not make the RCC not a cult.

reply to post by colbe

Cooperating with God's grace to LIVE a holy life.

So what is this "grace" you are talking about? Some sort of magical quality that is imparted to you?
Biblical grace is God giving you permission to be joined with Him through Christ. It is not a special quality that you get that makes you better than the next person. That is faith.
We are saved by faith, but it is not just a simple believing. Paul makes it a technical term in his teaching, where it is the equivalent of the Law in the old system that Jesus' new system replaced.
In the old covenant system, someone remained in good standing in Israel by keeping the Mosaic Law. In the new covenant system, someone remains in good standing by living by faith, which is a spirit that is of God that is given to us through Christ that writes a moral law on our hearts for us to follow.

reply to post by newnature

We are saved unto good works, we are saved for the purpose of good works, but we are not saved by our good works, or kept saved by our good works, or not upon any promise you might make along those lines, but upon Christ’s righteousness and your faith in Christ’s faithful sacrifice on your behalf.

Let's translate this so everyone can understand: The all-loving, all merciful god will crush you like a bug if you don't align yourself with Jesus. Good to know.