Islam's Lie: "There Is No Compulsion In Religion" (2:256)

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posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 09:52 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 


do you say that to everyone who does not agree with you because i have heard muslim scholars about tawqa and they say what i had said.

He is telling us WHAT SCHOLARS TOLD HIM!!

Jesus. You really are impossible. I'm beginning to think you're a fraud AND a disinformation agent.

You are making things worse, logical7. You're not helping your cause at all. You were, at the beginning, but now you are just pouring oil on the fire. Why should I (or anyone) trust you, when you STOP ANSWERING QUESTIONS that clearly ask for the FACTS that we NEED?

I think it must be because you don't know, OR because you refuse to do so.

It is very clear that there are real radicalized Muslims who want to destroy other people and 'the West'. When are you going to start offering SUGGESTIONS to change that?

Answer: When we get to the intersection of "NE" and "VER". :shk:

So, I guess I'll just stick with what I can figure out on my own, and by consulting people who are able and willing to answer my questions - because you have exhausted whatever "helpfulness" you thought you had to offer me in understanding Islam in terms that I can accept, and I am not "relaxed" at all by your input here. You are wasting my time, and I'm letting you! Done with that now. Consider yourself "un-sourced". I will no longer look to you for answers or useful explanations.

And meanwhile, the world is exploding. And I intend to find out what should be done. You obviously are no help at all to me in that quest. Therefore, your job as "teacher" is over in my case. You are now on the "of no further help" list.
edit on 14-6-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 11:43 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 



so the word "Muttakin" means what according to you?
Someone who has "taqwa"? Or someone doing just "ittaqa"??


It's not about what it means to me. The point is what the word really means, and understanding its full completeness by understanding its base root-word.


• Muttaqin: Those who have taqwa in their heart and whose actions, words, and thoughts stem from the Fear of displeasing or disobeying Allah

• Taqwa: To fear Allah and protecting/covering one's self from sin, disobedience, and disbelief

• Ittaqa: To protect/cover one's self


Taqwa is a state of mind. Muttaqin is a pronoun used to identify a person who has taqwa.

 




do you say that to everyone who does not agree with you because i have heard muslim scholars about tawqa and they say what i had said.


No, I would not make such a statement against someone for simply disagreeing with me. I have said so because you have clearly illustrated that you do not understand the mechanisms, let alone the basics, of how the Arabic language functions.

It appears as if you are desperately trying to do quick Internet searches and pass it off as knowledge of the Arabic language. This is no way to discuss or debate. Absolutely NO person with a sound understanding and knowledge of the Arabic language would dare to create one word translations into English without referencing the base root-word it stems from. Arabic is way too deep and meaningful to presume any Arabic-to-English translators will suffice.



as you say that taqwa means fear of God then wouldn't it apply to only the people who believe in God? Muslims and people of the book?


"God" is an extremely general word. Every religion, including what you would label as pagan or idolatry, believes in their own God and Creator. Shall we say they are all muttaqun with taqwa? No! You will say they are kafirron and mushrikoon (non-believers).

According to various Christian theologies regarding Jesus as either the Son of God, God in the Flesh, or part of the Trinity,.... you would call these beliefs a form of shirk (polytheism or idolatry), and not taqwa. You would say that taqwa is to stay away from such beliefs.

For the sake of argument, yes, People of the Book were described as having the potential to be muttaqun, but when we take away the glossy rose glasses, we further read that their beliefs are not in-line with Islamic taqwa or tawheed (Belief in the Oneness and singularity of Allah). "People of the Book" only have taqwa or are called muttaqin if their beliefs and actions are in accord with Allah and his Qur'an.

Please don't seek sugar-coatings.


edit on 14-6-2013 by Kgnow because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 06:31 PM
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reply to post by MrInquisitive
 


Trust me brother, I understand where you're coming from. This thread may, on the surface, appear to be a superficial attack against Islam, however, it is serving as a lesson tool to educate lay-educated muslims, newly muslim converts, or people that are legitimately interested in Islam.

There is a lot of suffering and injustice throughout mankind. But for the sake of the vastness of points of debate,... I chose to direct this thread to the complete misunderstanding of this single verse alone (2:256). It is not in bias to the favoring of any ideological belief, nor lack thereof above another. It is one specific focus point, that may help to tear down some walls towards building true love and altruism, founded upon pure peace, and with compassion and love towards all others. Peace and Love for the sake of Peace and Love alone.

As an ex-muslim, this is an expose' from one who has come to the understanding that yes,.... Islam helped bring the desert Arabs out of their medieval Jahiliyyah (Dark Ages of Ignorance) and brought many people together,.... however,... the darker parts of Islam are cause enough for all muslims and non-muslims alike to think in their own minds: "You know what, all humans truly are my very own family. What sense does it make hate, or dehumanize, or to even have the permission or possibility to force people to convert or die, or to be lawfully allowed to take slaves? It does not matter the other guy's beliefs,... he is my brother, and I cultivate towards him only peace." We have to seriously get in touch with all fellow humans on mutual understanding and compassion, or this whole system of suffering will never end.

There are a vast and numerous amount of points that we could discuss regarding other religions and ideologies, or political groups, or we could talk about any cause of suffering in the world,... but sometimes we must discuss certain points in-and-of themselves, without the distraction or protection of comparison's to other things.

After we reach an agreeable understanding based upon the best facts of the points in this thread, then we will all have a better idea of what this specific verse 2:256 means whenever we open it up for representation. We can not compare this verse 2:256 to religious freedom, other religions or groups, or anything else until we have a complete understanding of what this verse even is. We can't even talk about this verse 2:256 until we all know what it really is. After that, then yes, comparison will be more valid and productive.



edit on 14-6-2013 by Kgnow because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 06:58 PM
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reply to post by Kgnow
 


i listen to this dayee often on youtube, he does not claim to be a scholar about everything in islam but he runs an islamic institute in US named Bayyinah which teaches Qur'anic arabic and he is a scholar of arabic.
This is what he says about Taqwa.

its not just fear of God but doing acts to seek protection as a result of that fear and it is derived from the word "ittiqa"
i have not studied arabic grammar so i do go to experts whenever there is a doubt and you cannot be trusted as i don't have a way to check your claims and further i have enough information from what i do know about you that you can be biased against Islam, Qur'an and the Prophet pbuh. Nothing personal kgnow its just common sense. Blindly believing an ex-christian or an ex-muslim tells more about the person who does that than whats the truth.
I do encourage people to not take me as an authority or source on islam and do their own research as i can be pro-islam or sugar coat things as you said.

Btw on the verse,
if there is no compulsion in religion but Qur'an is biased in favour of Islam and urges the reader/listener towards belief then whats the problem?

Are you saying it should be, "follow what you wish, God doesn't care"!!!

Its more like, "jump off the roof if you want but you'l break a bone or something and its going to pain like Hell"

so islam is not to be forced but if God exists and He sent the Qur'an and Hell is true then its an informed choice. Right?



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 07:26 PM
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Originally posted by Kgnow
reply to post by maes2
 

I was seeking a time to answer you, at least you said "Hello" and I should respond at least "Hello" !

I am an ex-Muslim with absolutely no present religious associations or affiliations.

lets be honest, neither you were a muslim, nor I am a muslim ! Islam (submission to almighty God) has been the only religion throughout history, religion of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them). nowadays two words are so cheap, Love and Islam. Secularism is a lie, the way we live is our religion.
you have questions and it makes us search and think more, it is useful for everyone.
lets get back to the OP :
point #1

As we can plainly see, the verse in its entire context of revelation is biased towards the belief in and obedience to Allah. "Taghut" means: The action of disbelief and disobedience to Allah and Islam.

it is right and wrong. if you consider Moses and Abraham muslims then your statement that ""Taghut" means: The action of disbelief and disobedience to Allah and Islam" is right. but you are trying to say that Taghut here is solely against prophet Muhammad. so I offer you to read the following verses, it is mentioning the story of Abraham !

Have you not considered the one who argued with Abraham about his Lord [merely] because Allah had given him kingship? When Abraham said, "My Lord is the one who gives life and causes death," he said, "I give life and cause death." Abraham said, "Indeed, Allah brings up the sun from the east, so bring it up from the west." So the disbeliever was overwhelmed [by astonishment], and Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people. -Koran 2:258

the verses you quoted are followed by the story of Abraham that he stood against Taghuts.

point #2

Muhammad ordered the assassination of Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf, who was one of the leaders of the Banu Nadir tribe. His crime was speaking badly against Islam. The assassination was done in the middle of the night, under the guise of lying to Ka'b to get him to drop his guard. Some Muslims lied to Ka'b about their abandoning Muhammad, and then proceeded to assassinate Ka'b.

as I know he was killed because of breaking the peace contract between jews and muslims. and it was part of this contract. jews were free to live only in peace with muslims not helping the enemies of muslims. Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf was one of main cause of Battle of Uhud which polytheists of Mecca attacked muslims.

have you not seen those to whom a portion of the book was given believing in (the two statutes of mecca) jibt and taghout and say to those who disbelieve: 'those are more guided on the way than those who believe.' (2:51)
those are they whom allah has cursed and whosoever allah has cursed, you will not find any helper for him. (2:52)
this is about jews like Kab who went to Mecca in order to persuade polytheists to attack muslims, while jews were in a peace contract with muslims and the punishment of betrayer was to be killed according to the contract.

Because of the assassination of Ka'b, and the attacks and expulsion of other Jewish tribes from Medina, and also due to the constant demands of jizya and alms taxes,... the tribe of Banu Nadir refused to pay yet another alms to Muhammad as "blood money" for the the deaths of two men that died in a skirmish that Muslims had instigated. For refusing to pay the alms, Muhammad accused the Banu Nadir of plotting to assassinate him, which he concluded based on "revelation."

Kab was killed because of betray and it was according to the constitution which jews had accepted it already. jizya tax is about 9th year of Hijrah and the battle of Bani Nadir was in 4th year of Hijrah, so that battle was never because of any tax, and Jews did never refuse to cooperate with Muhammad overtly but they decided to assassinate him covertly.
moreover Muhammad wanted Bani Nadir to leave Medina in ten days, they did and no massacre happened !

it was he who expelled the unbelievers among the people of the book from their homes into the first exile. you did not think that they would go out, and they thought their fortresses would protect them from allah. but allah came upon them from where they did not expect, casting terror into their hearts that their homes were destroyed by their own hands as well as by the hands of the believers. therefore, take heed you that have eyes. (59:2)
...............................................................
because they broke their promise with allah and his messenger; and whosoever breaks their promise with allah allah is stern in retribution. (59:4)

the following verses show that no war took happen.
this is the first time that I am hearing that the battle of Bani Nadir was a massacre. actually there was no real war at all !



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 07:28 PM
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reply to post by Kgnow
 


After Kenana’s execution, Islam’s prophet Muhammad then married his grieving wife Safiyya bint Huyayy

this is about the battle of Kheibar I think in 7th year of Hijrah not the battle of Bani Nadir, it seems you have summarized all your criticism and history of Islam in the Battle of Bani Nadir !
moreover Safiyya was not grieving, because she converted to Islam and some months passed then she married Muhammad. (this is a rule in Islam that a woman should wait some months before marrying another man)

"No compulsion in religion" was abrogated two years later in favor of jihad against non-believers:
But then Allah's saying (There is no compulsion in religion…) was abrogated and the Prophet was commanded to fight the "People of the Book" in Suratul Tawbah”
- Tafsir Al-Wahidi

I think this viewpoint is not widespread among muslims ! this is the first time I am hearing this. how can two completely different verses be replaced with each other !!! one of the verses is saying that there is no compulsion in the religion and it's message is clear. but the other verses have completely different purposes.

"1. [This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.
2. So travel freely, [O disbelievers], throughout the land [during] four months but know that you cannot cause failure to Allah and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers...........- Qur'an, Suratul Tawbah, ayah 1-5 (9:1-5)

the above verse is solely about the polytheists of Mecca neither atheists nor jews or christians after which the great predict of Torah happened that:

1-Moses says :The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. -Deuteronomy 18

Jesus is different from Moses especially the birth of Jesus was a miracle and he is from israiletes not their brothers.

2-He said: “The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran(mountains around Mecca). He came with myriads(ten thousand) of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.-Deuteronomy 33:2

if we accept that Sinai refers to Moses and Seir refers to Jesus but what about the Mecca mountains ! especially if we consider that Muhammed entered Mecca with it's ten thousand followers.


Muhammad (PBUH) conquered Mecca with ten thousands of it's followers, peacefully. then polytheists had some months to think. after the deadline, they should have converted to Islam (or maybe one of monotheistic religions) or immigrated from Mecca unless they would be killed ! this was to free Mecca from enemies of monotheism which were polytheists.
the rule for people of scripture and atheists was different. they could live in peace with muslims with religious freedom but they should have been committed to Civil laws.

I do not ignore that middle east is a victim of ignorances, racism, anti_Judism, anti_muslim, radicalism, ......... however middle east is a sample of our world. our world is full of radicalism. those who are worshiping Taghuts (Mossad, CIA, AlQaeda, Taliban, Jundullah, MI!, Illuminati, elites, Zionism .............)

edit on 14-6-2013 by maes2 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 07:42 PM
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reply to post by Kgnow
 





What sense does it make hate, or dehumanize, or to even have the permission or possibility to force people to convert or die, or to be lawfully allowed to take slaves?

show me any evidence from the Qur'an and Sahih hadiths that Islam is to be forced?
The central theme of Qur'an is tawheed(Oneness of God) and that Muhammad pbuh is just a warner and he is not in any way accountable or compelled to make them believe if people reject his message.

Islam encouraged good treatment of slaves, setting them free and even marrying them (males and females)
it was a gradual reformation towards abolishing slavery and yes what the muslim monarchs did later and even now what some sauds do is not what islam teaches.

People have hate, selfishness, greed, envy etc in them and Islam actually teaches and works by words and actions urging people to get above it all and unite under a simple yet powerful belief of Tawheed. The ones who don't are not to be hated or forced or dealt unjustly just because they are not on Tawheed but its about what the truth is. They are to be treated as equal human beings if they want to peacefully co-exist and they do not work directly or indirectly to harm muslims.
You may know the verses where this is mentioned. If i am hated just because i am a muslim by an individual or group then i have to excercise caution. Right?

Otherwise assure me that nobody hates muslims just because of their belief being different from some other belief system..



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 08:16 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 





I don't even remember what it IS now - will you kindly repeat for me what it is you now claim I "support",

you said this

Seems pretty logical, then, that "The
Khilafah" needs to be, um, shall we say
- "resurrected"?
No?

its you who actually suggested reviving The Khilafah.
To make it clear, this was what you were responding to

Islam has a unified code and provision
for a central leadership, The Khilafah.
It was abolished after WWI by planting
the seed of nationalism and making
arabs fight the turks by giving false
promises to arabs. The effects of which can still be seen.
The muslims are unfortunately divide
by nationalities, sects, tribes etc while
Islam calls them to be united under
one faith.


so lets have your stand now. I'l make it easy by making it conditional.
"IF Khilafah can unite the muslims and in effect bring much required peace to the world and if it will not show any aggression to force a belief on non-muslims(as many are scared of) then do you support the idea of Khilafah?"

just wishing for Peace is not enough and muslims do know a complete system that had worked in the past and can still work if implemented and they are demanding it as they do want peace much more badly than you as they are actually suffering directly.
Whats awful about that? How can you call something awful when you know nothing about it??



posted on Jun, 14 2013 @ 08:46 PM
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reply to post by Kgnow
 





If Islam operates on the concepts of "peace" and "no compulsion in religion," and is not seeking world dominance..... Please explain why the combined End Time prophecies of Allah and Muhammad detail a world-wide battle of Muslims against non-Muslims, especially the genocide of Jews.... and how Imam Mahdi will come to rule the Islamic One World Government and Religion.

let me first correct you on who will rule, it will be Jesus(Isa) pbuh.

On the other point, a prophecy is something that is going to happen in future.
If Isa pbuh propheciesed that he will come back and rule the world then either you can say that its true or say that it was just wishful thinking of the Bible writers.

You can used it to make jugdements about the Bible writers that they wanted to dominate the world or it will really happen.


If Islam's goal was freedom of religion
and peace, then surely such an
oppressive and totalitarian
eschatology would not exist, let alone
jizyah tax, slavery, or jihad.

eschatology is what it is, wouldnt it be stupid to say that it would be all peaceful and rosy and then wars and genocides happen, it would kind of make that eschatology look nothing than empty wishes of peace but maybe that would please you more.

Jizyah simply is a protection tax unless you want non muslims to be freeloaders in an islamic state.

Slavery existed before prophet Muhammad pbuh came and slaves got much better treatment by muslims who do follow Qur'an and Sunnah.

Jihad is a term that maybe you understand better than me. Its a "struggle" or to exert efforts of any kind towards something.
If muslims are attacked then its common sense that they should do Jihad by their person, money etc



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 02:26 AM
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لا اله الا الله و لا نعبد الا ایّاه ، مخلصین له الدین و ولو کره المشکرکون

I think you can prove that Christianity or Judaism is a lie (معاذالله) but the fact that you are proving this is that your govt is giving you direction on what to attack.

God forgive us all.



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 02:28 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


Weren't you the none religious fair guy who is always seen on anti-islamic thread.

Just like all fair and open mind friends in ATS ?

What is the new wave ? What have you been surfing on for past days ?

Just send me feedback.



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 06:02 AM
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reply to post by mideast
 


You can read my post and thread history if you want to get better acquainted with me.
I spent the winter discussing the problems with Christian interpretations and denominations. Now it is spring, the Middle East is exploding (still, only more so), Dominionist Christians are foaming at the mouth for "war" to defend Israel, and I'm trying to find a balance.

My opinion at this point remains: RELIGION CAUSES MORE HARM THAN GOOD.



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 06:19 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 



Wildtimes here supports Khilafah. Is she a stealth jihadist??

Read your one-liner here again.
First you claimed I support Khilifah - and I could not remember what you said it stood for. Now you have reminded me, of what you CLAIMED it meant, and, because I don't trust you, I just went to see if you had accurately represented it. I found this site khilafah.com: building a global movement for Khilafah

Here is what it says in "ABOUT US":

Since it was founded in 1996, Khilafah.com has earned a reputation for being the foremost Islamic political and ideological website in the English language. Khilafah.com is dedicated to articulating the case for Islam as an ideology that provides solutions for all human problems and all human relationships. It is our belief that Islam must be understood ideologically that deals with individual and societal problems. At the forefront of the call of Islam (Da’wah) today is the case of presenting Islam as a challenge to the current chaos, inequality, despotism and international disorder – all a consequence of Western liberalism (Capitalism).

This is a FAR CRY from what you suggested that it was a 'centralized authority to teach "real, tolerant Islam" and my suggestion to license and monitor the Imams. Instead it is INCITING ANTI-WESTERN HATRED.

So, you misrepresented it to begin with, baiting me when I asked why there was no 'centralized leadership' and telling me that's all it was, when what it REALLY is revolves around CONDEMNATION OF THE WEST.

So, NO I DO NOT SUPPORT IT. Funny how I thought I did based on the sneaky way you described it. I should have known better than to take your word for it. Now I do know better, though. You are an apologist. Period. And that website appears to be ENCOURAGING 'stealth jihadists' by insisting that the world's problems are ALL caused by the West - which is YOUR BELIEF.

Second of all, you suggested I was one of those "stealth jihadists." That is an awful link to make. It is libel, and I COULD sue you for it in the "liberal West".

Based on what the webpage says, this movement for "Khilafah" is CAUSING STRIFE. And you are, as well.

Like I said, you are not to be trusted as a real 'educator' in Islam. Kgnow has blown your doors off - your agenda is now exposed as nothing more than impotent apologetics.
:shk:
edit on 15-6-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 06:24 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 



Jizyah simply is a protection tax unless you want non muslims to be freeloaders in an islamic state.

A "protection tax"? Commonly known as EXTORTION by THUGS. Pay us or we will kill you. Or rather PAY US TO LET YOU LIVE AND BELIEVE WHATEVER YOU WANT. Nothing TOLERANT about that.



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 06:25 AM
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Originally posted by maes2
Islam (submission to almighty God) has been the only religion throughout history, religion of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad

No matter how much you muslims try to claim 'the biggies' ... Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus ... they were NOT Muslim. Islam was invented by Muhammad. Those people lived hundreds and thousands of years earlier and many of their beliefs and practices and teachings were in direct contradiction to Islam.



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 06:30 AM
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Originally posted by logical7
Jizyah simply is a protection tax unless you want non muslims to be freeloaders in an islamic state.

Oh please! :shk: That's a shakedown. Just like the mafia do. It even has the same threat of violence tacked on the end if the shakedown isn't paid. So much for live and let live., eh? This is yet another example of why SECULAR RULE OF LAW is the only fair law of the land. Otherwise, people have to pay shakedown money to religious fanatics in order to stay alive.


That goes along with what the OP said ... the great lie of Islam is that there is no compulsion in it's religion. Obviously there is.
edit on 6/15/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 08:15 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 





Second of all, you suggested I was one of those "stealth jihadists." That is an awful link to make. It is libel, and I COULD sue you for it in the "liberal West".

i was making a sarcastic comment, my mistake!


Like I said, you are not to be trusted as
a real 'educator' in Islam. Kgnow has
blown your doors off - your agenda is
now exposed as nothing more than
impotent apologetics.

you are free to trust or mistrust anyone, just keep using common sense and be aware that appearences can be very decieving.

Have i ever agreed with you about the ideology of West?
In one of your post somewhere, you actually compared muslim world as in some grade/high school and the west in college! and your desire for the muslims to catch up!!
I don't have words to describe how arrogant it sounds and yet its written in a compassionate and caring way and that makes me keep talking to you as you honestly believe that its the solution.

A simple answer if the Western way is not good enough to solve its own problems and creates many more problems while attemption to fix one then why should anyone try to immitate it?

I have nothing against west, i just don't agree with its ideology and i don't want to live that way.

Basically the western way teaches(by actions) that this world is everything there is and Islam teaches that this world is just a transitionary phase.
You and others who do have an idea that this life is not the end try to balance everyday life and your beliefs and have to make compromises whenever these two opposites clash.

Very simply, your way of life is not in complete harmony with your core belief.(i do see that you try you best)
I respect you as a person but i see that my ideas are too different than yours and its a struggle to keep communicating and i may have to stop if you are not ready to know my ideas and keep judging me all the time.



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 08:32 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 


The response I gave to you in the Original Thread (out of which this one, as well as your 'Rebuttal' thread sprouted) applies to your post here as well.
To read it: click here.



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 08:35 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 



Basically the western way teaches(by actions) that this world is everything there is

INcorrect. Again.



posted on Jun, 15 2013 @ 08:37 AM
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edit on 15-6-2013 by logical7 because: (no reason given)





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