Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)

Originally posted by logical7
My point was also that if the majority of west only sees the religion of terrorists and not the reasons behind their attack

... because their attacks are always religion inspired. ALLAH AKBAR ... they scream.

then its fair that these muslims also see the attack and war on them as a christian war on islam.

The people bringing religion into it are the muslims. So if the muslims see the war as a war of Christians on Islam .. then they are uneducated or they just choose to see it that way.

reply to post by wildtimes

So is your "belief" that 9/11 was an inside job - that belief is based on PROPAGANDA. You can't accuse others of falling for Propaganda and then blame them when you yourself are falling for Propaganda as well.

no, the official story about 9/11 was a propaganda that insulted common sense and expertise of experts leading to development of altertnative theories that make more sense.
I was about 16 and was watching the news when i saw 9/11 and i loved watching discovery channel and the program on controlled demolitions, and the towers fell just like the buildings in that program.
The aim of controlled demolition is that the building collapses onto itself and cause no damage to buildings around it by falling sideways etc. So if i believe the official story, the planes managed to hit the towers with unimaginable accuracy and make them collapse in a perfectly controlled way which requires the demolition teams to carefully set up charges at exact locations and precise timings!

Whoever is telling you that it is
Christians slaughtering Muslims willy-
nilly for OIL and blatant religious
hatred while calling it a "war on
terror" has skewed your
understanding of how complicated this all is. The wars are terrible - they
are a culmination of generations of
previous leadership, religious
infighting, and ongoing finger-
pointing. Why are you not blaming the Saudi
government? Why not the Iranian
"government"?
What about the Syrian government?

read the bold and interchange Christians with Muslims and Muslims with Christians/westerners.

I have no love for saudi, iranian or syria governments.
Saudi rulers are an enemy to peace and to Islam with their wahabi ideology.

You are blaming 'the West' for the
Sunni's forever hatred of the Shiites?
The "Arab Spring" protests in Syrian
turned into an "Arab Firestorm" that
hasn't died down. If Muslims are
uniformly tolerant and peaceful, why do they engage in warfare amongst
themselves? It might well be true that the rebels are
being encouraged by 'the West' in
these "Dirty War" tactics - but they are
exploiting tension that ALREADY
EXISTED and intolerance among
Muslims themselves.

now you are finally getting it

the "spring" turned to "firestorm" by them getting firearms!

I feel sick at muslims killing each other (or anyone)
when prophet Muhammad pbuh had said that if two muslims fight to kill, both the killer and the killed will end up in hell!

reply to post by logical7


No, I am not "finally getting it." I've been studying it for years now. The "shadow government" has been an issue for DECADES. The first time I learned about it was when I read "Captains and the Kings" by Taylor Caldwell - a novel based on the cabal that oversees the whole world, supplies arms to BOTH SIDES of conflicts, and wants continual war.

Do you honestly think I am unaware of it? That I'm a complete dolt and ignorant of the history of the world as we know it to be?
You think I don't know about "controlled demolition"? You think I haven't followed that controversy also?

PEOPLE DIED during 9/11 - and it started what is effectively becoming World War Three. It makes me sick, literally, unable to eat, difficult to sleep - I have children who will be dealing with the aftermath LONG after I am gone.

Just HOW STUPID do you really think I am, logical7? How unaware of world events and global dynamics do you assume me to be?

What we need is PEACE, GLOBALLY. Now. Not in 50 years, not in 100 years, not in 1000 years. TODAY.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
My point was also that if the majority of west only sees the religion of terrorists and not the reasons behind their attack

... because their attacks are always religion inspired. ALLAH AKBAR ... they scream.

then its fair that these muslims also see the attack and war on them as a christian war on islam.

The people bringing religion into it are the muslims. So if the muslims see the war as a war of Christians on Islam .. then they are uneducated or they just choose to see it that way.

if a muslim group of fighters attack a patrol of foreign invaders by screams of "Allah hu Akbar" then it does not make it religiously motivated, they are just defending their country and they are religious and praising God to get courage and the spirit to fight.

A terrorist may scream the same but when did i ever claim that he does not think its the right thing and he is doing it for his religion?
I just say that objectively its not the right thing according to islam to kill innocents, women, kids and the old.

The justification they give is their women and children are killed by the bombings and invaders so why shouldn't they do the same.

Its completely wrong, two wrongs don't make a right!!

Islam has strict guidelines for warfare and they are discarding them and still believing that they are going to be martyrs.
Prophet Muhammad pbuh forbade from claiming anyone to be a martyr because only God knows why he fought and died, was it truly for the truth,justice and fighting the oppression or for some personal anger etc.

When Ali r.a was fighting a pagan and disarmed him, the pagan spat on his face before he could kill him and Ali r.a did not kill him and he demanded to be killed as a warrior but Ali refused and said that he was fighting him to defend his religion but now if he kills him, it could be in part due to the personal insult of being spitted on and this is the Islam i believe in.

Oh, and one more thing about the film in the OP:

It is focusing on ONE PART of Islamic fundamentalism that DOES EXIST - just as the Christian Dominionists DO EXIST.
There ARE people who believe and are actively pushing for BOTH of them, and no denying of their existence - either of them - can be accepted. I've said this til my fingers are numb ----

BOTH ARE WRONG. Both are holding back the progress of humanity into a unified species. Both are pushing for destruction of the species altogether.

And they MIGHT WIN, if we don't STOP THEM. We are at a critical moment here - we can either rid the planet of our accutely toxic presence on it and let it go about its business recovering from the mess...

or we can COOPERATE with the planet and each other to make things better for our entire species AND for this lonely planet on which we depend for life. If we vaporize ourselves and destroy everything, the planet will still carry on without us - just like Chernobyl is now home to vegetation, animals, and is recovering.

We misuse "atomic energy" at our peril - but if it destroys us in our ignorant and reckless "playing around" with it - the harnessed energy will simply recycle back into the universe where it came from to begin with....and the universe will simply carry on and we will NOT be "missed."

We are living creatures with spirits that (in the best case possibility) do transcend physical existence..... but I happen to like this place. It's the human destruction of it that I despise.

Originally posted by logical7
The justification they give is their women and children are killed by the bombings and invaders so why shouldn't they do the same.

- If the terrorists didn't go around bombing and terrorizing innocent people, then they wouldn't have bombs raining down on their heads. And if those terrorists didn't HIDE behind women and children, then those women and children wouldn't be dead either. Hamas is notorious pulling terror attacks and then for hiding in civilian infrastructure and civilian assets (like ambulances). And Hamas is notorious for hiding behind civilians and then screaming bloody murder when those civilians are killed.

- If the USA, or any coalition from the West, wanted to invade and keep a muslim country, we'd do it and run it over rather quickly. We have the firepower, the man power, the intelligence and the military assets to do so.

reply to post by FlyersFan

If the USA, or any coalition from the West, wanted to invade and keep a muslim country, we'd do it and run it over rather quickly. We have the firepower, the man power, the intelligence and the military assets to do so

That's a good point actually...

Especially since the US have military bases all over the area...

I love it when you two ladies get goin...

reply to post by wildtimes

Just HOW STUPID do you really think I am, logical7? How unaware of world events and global dynamics do you assume me to be? What we need is PEACE, GLOBALLY. Now. Not in 50 years, not in 100 years, not in 1000 years. TODAY.

i don't think you are STUPID but i think you assume the above about me and wanted to give you a taste about how it feels to be assumed so.
I am aware about much more than i can show in the posts, just like you.

The peace you want cannot come as you are a minority and the majority are just unconcerned and many are actually playing the war drum eagerly waiting for the confrontation to happen..
I don't know what will happen but i do know that things will ultimately improve but sadly i feel that it will cause many deaths(maybe more that a million). I am afraid that nuclear weapons maybe used and yes it makes me sick. I don't blame the Western people who are good hearted and just want peaceful co existence. I do blame the governments and see a complete faliure of democracy because if you say that majority don't want bloodshed, then who are politicians representing?
You say don't hate americans but your government is doing it in your name and the authority given by you. It is being done in your name and i do know your stand but very frankly, whose responsibility is it to stop it??
Like you very rightly said that i don't have a right to blame west when muslims are also part of the problem, so i may ask the same from you and others who just push the blame on Islam and i hope you'l speak out against any hate being spewed or the blame game as you have kept on doing till now.

Just a little complain, when you agree with an obvious islam disliker(outright hater in some cases) it looks bad on you.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by charles1952

 

In your opinion, why are all the posters here who seem to be supporting Islam, dodging the questions and the issues. Do you think they are afraid or unwilling to admit the fears are valid? Are the cultures so different that Muslims can't have a significant conversation with non-Muslims? What is it? Why is everybody refusing to talk about the issues?

SERIOUSLY!!?
I think the OP has been debunked and wildtimes herself accepted it.
The thread is now just wandering except you trying to still somehow prove that islam is violent by asking leading questions or assuming the refusal of posters to indulge you as a proof that your assumtions are true, just like you did about the video in OP. Asking muslims to respond to video without ever asking a straight question.

When somebody does answer you. You ask the same question in another twisted way till you get the answer you want and when you don't get it you call muslim posters evasive?

so basically we are evasive and "afraid" because we don't give you answers that you want.

Charles, muslims are not going to agree to something thats not true no matter how well you put it to lead and bait them.
You are free to make sentences/questions that indulge/confirm your own opinions and feel pleased with yourself.

Ok, this is where I step in. Islamist can be very violent can't they? Just like some Christians can be. You can't just act like ALL Muslims are completely innocent just like no ONE in ANY religion is completely innocent. Everyone adds fuel to the fire every once in a while.

Not to mention, I don't think Charles thinks all Muslims are "dangerous". Please, don't look at things through black or white glasses, rather grey.

reply to post by logical7


I you believe IF the US pulls out of all Islamic countries and left them to their own issues.... there would be peace in those countries?

It seems to me that if there is religious rule, and separate beliefs on the religion, there will still be conflict...

reply to post by logical7

I do blame the governments and see a complete faliure of democracy because if you say that majority don't want bloodshed, then who are politicians representing?
You say don't hate americans but your government is doing it in your name and the authority given by you. It is being done in your name and i do know your stand but very frankly, whose responsibility is it to stop it??

It is EVERYONE'S responsibility!!
And 'we the people' did not KNOW what was going on behind closed doors or in secret meetings. Now it is all coming out. How are we supposed to stop something we don't know is happening?

The politicians are representing whoever gives them the most money - they do NOT appear to be really interested in foreign policy - they are interested in MONEY. We KNOW this, and I've been just as outspoken about the lobbying, special interest groups, power-manipulation, and secrecy as I have about Christianity's and Islam's hypocritical members.

We don't have a "pure" democracy. It is a 'republic' run by so-called "representatives" of the people - and it is glaringly obvious to nearly EVERYONE that those "representatives" are playing their own games regardless of what the people need to be secure, educated, safe, healthy, and fed.

That's why I have called for - and will continue to squawk about - an END to government corruption, lobbying, fund-raising, antagonistic campaigns, and "force". Our stupid government couldn't get its collective shoes tied without someone bribing them to do it.
It's utterly disgusting and a farce of a representing of the will of the "common people." I'd be fine with shutting the whole damned thing down, firing them all. If we have "real" representation of EVERYONE, things might work, but we don't, we never have, and most likely never will.

reply to post by Akragon

I you believe IF the US pulls out of all Islamic countries and left them to their own issues.... there would be peace in those countries?

It seems to me that if there religious rule, and separate beliefs on the religion, there will still be conflict...

Exactly.
If every Westerner pulled out of those strife-ridden war zones today - EVERY soldier, educator, doctor, nurse, ambassador, ambassador's aides and staffs, ALL of the embassies closed, all the corporations hiring locals, and the UN disbanded altogether.....and those countries were left to their own devices - they'd destroy each other anyway.

reply to post by logical7

yes we all know christianity is so peaceful except that the western leaders attacking the muslim countries are actually christians but lets not consider that because they are not doing it because of their beliefs, they are waging a "war on terror"!!
The innocents dying in carpet bombings and drone attacks must thank them for hunting down terrorists and just die with gratitude on their faces knowing that they are just acceptable collateral damages.

Quit it with these moronic generalizations. Be more specific. Yes, I understand there are some unintelligent Christians who just follow everything the media says but, rest the blame on those individuals who do so, not the ENTIRE religion or on an ENTIRE country. Let me say this too. Everyone here is susceptible to what ever their news tells them. Therefore, this is none of anyones fault this argument rages on. The only thing that is contributing to war is misrepresentation, ignorance, mass deception, and the NWO. Oh, and all the secret societies.

reply to post by FlyersFan

If the terrorists didn't go around bombing and terrorizing innocent people, then they wouldn't have bombs raining down on their heads.

lets get to bare basics, who started it according to you? And when?

reply to post by logical7

Like you very rightly said that i don't have a right to blame west when muslims are also part of the problem, so i may ask the same from you and others who just push the blame on Islam and i hope you'l speak out against any hate being spewed or the blame game as you have kept on doing till now.

*facepalm*
I have been speaking out against HATRED and INTOLERANCE since I was four years old. Are you now prepared to stop vilifying 'the West' and accusing the 'non-religious' of being immoral demons and homicidal maniacs? India is a Westernized country, logical7.

Just a little complain, when you agree with an obvious islam disliker(outright hater in some cases) it looks bad on you.

I will agree with POSTS as I see fit, regardless of who makes them.

As for members with whom I NEVER agree, I have begun wisely to ignore them and write them off as impossible to communicate with. You have come VERY close to that line yourself, more than once. I disagree with you when you say things with which I disagree. And I agree with you and acknowledge the points you make when I agree with them.

Yet with you, it almost seems as though I'm "starting over" trying to communicate openly and honestly with you every day.
I have to continually repeat myself for you to stick to the point and acknowledge my position, and then you claim either "you don't need to repeat it over and over we all know what you think"
or, just as likely
"what do you think about this or that, wildtimes?"
It's almost like you have a short-term memory problem.
Or at least a deficit in ability to track ongoing conversations. I correspond with a number of people on these boards, and most of them are able to retain what I've said previously. That's how real "understanding" grows, logical7, not just by repeating the same thing 4,000 times.

reply to post by mindlessbrainpower89


You forgot to mention GREED.
But thanks for being civil and reasonable.. (disregarding the uncalled for "moronic" at least...you made some good points.)

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

Why do you keep saying 'the West' is Christian?
THE WEST is comprised of people of ALL religions. It's NOT just Christians; that is a generalization and a misrepresentation of what is going on.

The USA is NOT a "Christian nation", logical7. Please try to get that through your head. It is a secular nation. And Europe is made up of secular nations as well.

the leaders are christians, zionists, zionist christians. Some with dual israeli citizenships, if you think that their decisions are not influenced by these associations then think again!

My point was also that if the majority of west only sees the religion of terrorists and not the reasons behind their attack then its fair that these muslims also see the attack and war on them as a christian war on islam.

To start off with your last point, one bias shouldn't influence others to be bias. By being bias, you discredit yourself and who ever you represent. On your first point, there is actually many people in the US who don't care for Jews at ALL. According to many non-Jews here in America, Jews are "blood sucker, money hungry, finger pointing, pessimistic individuals." Even a good portion of Christians think this of Jews. Have you ever seen some of the anti-semitic remarks Mayor Bloomberg has said? By the way, here is the definition of Zionism...

Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut; Arabic: صهيونية‎, Șahyouniyyah) is a form of nationalism of Jews and Jewish culture that supports a Jewish nation state in the territory defined as the Land of Israel.[1] Zionism supports Jews upholding their Jewish identity, opposes the assimilation of Jews into other societies and has advocated the return of Jews to Israel as a means for Jews to be a majority in their own nation, and to be liberated from antisemitic discrimination, exclusion, and persecution that had historically occurred in the diaspora.

Tell me, what is so wrong with being a zionist? I support them. I guess I am wrong too?

reply to post by mindlessbrainpower89

Tell me, what is so wrong with being a zionist? I support them. I guess I am wrong too?

You are if you also promote bombing people and starting wars over it.

I support the NWO insofar as the idea is a peaceful planet with everyone on the same page and everyone having what they need. I do NOT support the ridiculous notion of them wanting to "depopulate" the world and make everyone their slaves. Preposterous. Scary, but, in my opinion...really preposterous.

Demonization of humanitarianism is what sticks in my craw.
We need to make the world a place where no matter WHERE a child is born, they will be fed, educated, sheltered, have adequate access to health care, clean water, clean air, clothing, and security. EVERYWHERE, for EVERYONE.

By the way, it was I who starred your two posts above.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by mindlessbrainpower89

 

You forgot to mention GREED.
But thanks for being civil and reasonable.. (disregarding the uncalled for "moronic" at least...you made some good points.)

edit on 12-6-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

Well, I didn't say you were a moron, just that the assessment was moronic. Hey, I make moronic statements myself time to time. Usually, when I am not using my brain. And yes! You are absolutely right about greed! Thank you for the compliment. I appreciate it. Not to mention, I do my best to look at things from different ends of the spectrum.

reply to post by mindlessbrainpower89


That's fine.

(You called logical7's ideas "moronic", though, not mine. Same as you said you were replying to charles when the posts in question were referencing and responding to ME.)

Careful. Just a hint: make sure you look at who you are responding to and address them.
I believe you ( = will give you the benefit of the doubt - which is my habit -- and my curse as often as not).

I'm glad to hear that you try to think outside the box and look at all sides.

P.S. I misspoke. The avatar is Sophie Marceau. Not "Rousseau." My mistake.