Online Poll Shows 85% of Brits Want to Repeal the Ban on Hand Guns

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by pikestaff

 

That is interesting….but not surprising. When you take away the most powerful deterrent to crime you can expect an immediate increase in crime, no?

Your post got me thinking; has there ever been a country with a ban like UK that reversed course? If so, what was the outcome with regard to crime rate?

"After establishment of Czechoslovakia in 1918 the country took over the preceding Austrian gun law from 1852. The law was very liberal, allowing to own and carry guns without any formalities, only with restriction regarding their number. This was restricted during the German occupation of Czechoslovakia: Nazis forbid private gun ownership (except for hunting) and imposed very harsh punishments. The liberal situation was returned following the defeat of Germany in May 1945.

The situation changed again after the communist coup d'état of 1948. Although the law allowed for some restricted gun ownership, in reality the authorities were instructed, which groups of people could be allowed to own a gun. In 1962 a secret directive was adopted, which was listing the nomenclature of persons deemed loyal enough to be allowed to own a gun. Enactment of 1983 was more liberal, but gun ownership still remained rather restricted. Access to sport guns was easier (sport shooting was encouraged and supported by the state via Svazarm) and the rules for hunting shotgun ownership were relatively permissive.

The new enactment of 1995, after the Velvet Revolution, meant return to liberal times of the First Czechoslovak Republic. "


Gun politics in the Czech Republic


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





Their laws are very much like the US with AR-15's allowed and full auto restricted. Concealed carry is permitted with license jsut like in most of the US but there is a two handgun limit to the number of guns you can carry concealed at one time (makes sense, you only go two hands).

Number of murders with a firearm in 2010: 2

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by seabag

 

Hand guns have never been freely available in the UK.
Introducing them now would be a time bomb.

Of course the same is true about taking guns away from a society where they are more freely available and have entered into that society's culture.

I honestly think that repealing The Second Amendment would be as disastrous for the US as would introducing an equivallent in the UK.

What do you mean? Firearms were not much regulated in the UK until the firearms act of 1937. Compare violent crime from 2013 with, say, 1933.

reply to post by NavyDoc


Again diffrient country diffrent cultures.

Just because we are both European does not mean we are even remotley alike.


Im just not getting why the American Pro gunners are so intent to spread there ways. Just concentrate on your own rights thank you very much.

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by seabag

 

Hand guns have never been freely available in the UK.
Introducing them now would be a time bomb.

Of course the same is true about taking guns away from a society where they are more freely available and have entered into that society's culture.

I honestly think that repealing The Second Amendment would be as disastrous for the US as would introducing an equivallent in the UK.

What do you mean? Firearms were not much regulated in the UK until the firearms act of 1937. Compare violent crime from 2013 with, say, 1933.

Yes they were unregulated did not mean many people owned them. We do not have the same gun culture the USA has.

Even if the restrictions were repealed I doubt if more than a few thousand would even care.

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Their laws are very much like the US with AR-15's allowed and full auto restricted. Concealed carry is permitted with license jsut like in most of the US but there is a two handgun limit to the number of guns you can carry concealed at one time (makes sense, you only go two hands).

Number of murders with a firearm in 2010: 2

Their laws are not tight, although they have a very small amount of firearms at public. Over 5 times less than in US. 88,8/100 vs 16,3/100. Much lower amount than EU average. Laws often would not even change anything. Whether strict or not-strict, people do not want guns. Even if they decided for stricter laws, most people would not care much.

The cultures are very different. Even if you gave guns out for free, most people round here would not take the offer. People just don´t see a point in owning one...

reply to post by crazyewok

Even if the restrictions were repealed I doubt if more than a few thousand would even care.

If that's the case, why does it bother you so much? It boils down to individual choice and freedom. Guns aside, don't you believe your fellow countrymen should have freedom to make their own decisions on how best to defend themselves?

You keep referring to the 'drinking problem' over there. Are you compelled to protect people from themselves? If so, why no ban on alcohol or limit on the amount of drinks a pub can serve? Would you consider that infringing on people's rights?

reply to post by NavyDoc

Firearms were not much regulated in the UK until the firearms act of 1937.

Yes they were regulated.
Granted regulation was more relaxed than today, but it still existed.

Restrictions on gun ownership and useage had gradually increased since the end of The Napoleonic Wars.

But gun ownership was still relatively low when compared to many countries.
Brits have always been more likely to be found carrying knives and other bladed tools and weapons.

Compare violent crime from 2013 with, say, 1933.

That's ridiculous.
Defenitions and standards have changed so much.
Comparing like for like is impossible.
Back in 1933 the vast majority of fights and assaults went unreported and unrecorded.
Give someone a little clip nowadays and it's immediately reported and classified as a violent crime.

Regardless of detail, the fact remains that gun ownership has never been common or generally accepted here in the UK.

reply to post by seabag


I do not want most of my "fellow countrymen" having the option of attacking me, my family or my friends. Guns can be used in self-defense, but also as a way of attacking others in a very efficient way with a high likelyhood of death.

I do not care whether you harm yourself, although I do care when you harm me. Imagine drunk people having access to weapons, it could have catastrophic consequences. It is an extremely rare situation, when someone ends up dead after a drunk fight. Drunk people are not very dangerous, just some pepper spray is enough against them or average fighting skills. Unless you provocate, you won´t have problems with drunk people either...

Originally posted by seabag

If that's the case, why does it bother you so much?

To be honnest it does not. If they relaxed gun laws I most likely would not be too botherd. It just gets on my skins when foreigners start threads on things they know little about outside there own country and act superior (I dont mind if it was just to learn or understand)and throw stats around without looking deeper into them or recogniseing that data collection and crime recognistion is diffrent from country to country.

Originally posted by seabag
It boils down to individual choice and freedom. Guns aside, don't you believe your fellow countrymen should have freedom to make their own decisions on how best to defend themselves?

Sad tuth is there is a large number of Brits who cant be trusted with that freedom. Especialy in High density low Income areas that have a majority of certain ethic minoritys who are known for drug and gun violence.

As I said very few Brits care enough about guns to bother. And I think far more Guns would be sold for defence rather than attack. It simply is not worth the risk/reward until we can get some social issues under control/

Originally posted by seabag
You keep referring to the 'drinking problem' over there. Are you compelled to protect people from themselves? If so, why no ban on alcohol or limit on the amount of drinks a pub can serve? Would you consider that infringing on people's rights?

Were as Guns seem to be the last thought on the majority of Brits minds, booze seems to be the oppoiste. Almost everyone likes a good drink in the UK. Banning Booze in the UK would be as unpopular and unfeasible as banning guns in the USA. It simple would not work.

Another thing you need to bare in mind in firework laws in the UK verse USA.

In UK you can legaly buy almost anything there are very few restrictions except on the biggest proffessional display ones and even then getting hold of the right permits is easy.

In the USA a lot of states seemed to have banned all but the most smallest and no one seems to mind. It seems to be a non issue in the USA the same way Guns are in the UK. Its a infringement of righst but no one really cares because of it been seen as a small issue.


Same with codine painkillers. In UK has far more relaxed codine painkiller laws than the USA ect.

Originally posted by crazyewok
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

Again diffrient country diffrent cultures.

Just because we are both European does not mean we are even remotley alike.


Im just not getting why the American Pro gunners are so intent to spread there ways. Just concentrate on your own rights thank you very much.

Your comment does support my point, though...that culture, not the number of guns cause the problems. We can see the crime rate in the UK growing as a large expanse of people who do not share the culture come in.

The majority of my friends in the UK find your gun laws useless as well as stupid, but I recognize that, largely being veterans and active military, their opinion may not reflect the average bloke.

I'm sorry, but as long as the UK is held up on both sides of the pond as a gun control model for us to follow, it will be discussed. If the gun grabbers in the UK, EU, and UN would leave us alone, we would not care what you do there. Like the healthcare debate: as long as we get the "well that's how it is done in the UK" nonsense, then well have to debate how it is actually done in the UK. It would help a heck of a lot if you guys would call Piers Morgan home. I'd appreciate it awfully.

Originally posted by NavyDoc
. It would help a heck of a lot if you guys would call Piers Morgan home. I'd appreciate it awfully.

Keep him even we think he is a total twat!

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

Firearms were not much regulated in the UK until the firearms act of 1937.

Yes they were regulated.
Granted regulation was more relaxed than today, but it still existed.

Restrictions on gun ownership and useage had gradually increased since the end of The Napoleonic Wars.

But gun ownership was still relatively low when compared to many countries.
Brits have always been more likely to be found carrying knives and other bladed tools and weapons.

Compare violent crime from 2013 with, say, 1933.

That's ridiculous.
Defenitions and standards have changed so much.
Comparing like for like is impossible.
Back in 1933 the vast majority of fights and assaults went unreported and unrecorded.
Give someone a little clip nowadays and it's immediately reported and classified as a violent crime.

Regardless of detail, the fact remains that gun ownership has never been common or generally accepted here in the UK.

It was a lot more than you think.

Originally posted by Cabin

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Their laws are very much like the US with AR-15's allowed and full auto restricted. Concealed carry is permitted with license jsut like in most of the US but there is a two handgun limit to the number of guns you can carry concealed at one time (makes sense, you only go two hands).

Number of murders with a firearm in 2010: 2

Their laws are not tight, although they have a very small amount of firearms at public. Over 5 times less than in US. 88,8/100 vs 16,3/100. Much lower amount than EU average. Laws often would not even change anything. Whether strict or not-strict, people do not want guns. Even if they decided for stricter laws, most people would not care much.

The cultures are very different. Even if you gave guns out for free, most people round here would not take the offer. People just don´t see a point in owning one...

edit on 4-6-2013 by Cabin because: (no reason given)

Which goes to show that it is not the gun nor the numbers of guns that are the problem, but certain elements within a society.

reply to post by seabag

You keep referring to the 'drinking problem' over there.

I know you didn't bring our 'drinking problem' up but there are many contributory factors to that problem and it is a manifestation of other ill's and a deeper malaise within our society - something that most definately DOES need addressing as a matter of urgency.

A topic for discussion in another time and place I think.

Are you compelled to protect people from themselves?

Unfortunately sometimes yes we do, if it is also for the good of other's.
Not ideal but a necessary evil at times.

If so, why no ban on alcohol

I don't think that experiment worked out well last time someone tried it.

Besides which that would take away a portion of my income!

or limit on the amount of drinks a pub can serve?

Bollocks to that.

Would you consider that infringing on people's rights?

Yes, mine!

reply to post by seabag


Landlords are expected to kick out/refuse to serve people who get too drunk and cause a problem so its not in a publicans interest to cause too much attention due to people pouring out overly rat arsed as it may affect the persons license to sell beer etc at its annual review


But for this US - UK thing on handguns....we think we got it right (with a few tweaks) and so do you (with a few tweaks) ...lets just agree that what works over here wouldn't work over there as theres too much of a cultural shift to suddenly just say "free handgun with 100 tokens from weetabix, send in 200 and get 5000 rounds of ammo"

reply to post by seabag


Freedom? you have fallen for that?
No one is free you, me no one.
We in UK society have given up the right to own handguns but remember it was the public who wanted this. In our society we just do not need them it is that simple.
But do not start spouting about freedom when you have let others take away many freedoms and done nothing about it.
Land of the free? Lies.... America is just a business....now pay me lol

(free cookie for the Movie title)

reply to post by NavyDoc

I'm sorry, but as long as the UK is held up on both sides of the pond as a gun control model for us to follow, it will be discussed.

Most of us don't have any problem with it being discussed, in fact I think it should be discussed, as long as the discussions are reasoned, considered and respectful.
Alas far too often they aren't.

And what really annoys many Brits is when the usual 'we saved your asses', 'we kicked your butt's' etc nonsense get trotted out.

If the gun grabbers in the UK,

That's the thing, most of us here in the UK aren't 'gun grabbers', we don't want to grab anything.
I understand why you have your guns in the USA, why you want to keep them and I even think it would be as big a mistake as Prohibition, possibly worse, if you repealed The Second Amendment.

It's just that we don't think that we need any sort of equivallent of it and that it would be calamitous for us if one was introduced.

EU, and UN would leave us alone,

Ditto.

we would not care what you do there.

But obviously some do otherwise why was this thread started in the first place?

Like the healthcare debate: as long as we get the "well that's how it is done in the UK" nonsense, then well have to debate how it is actually done in the UK.

A fair point.

It would help a heck of a lot if you guys would call Piers Morgan home. I'd appreciate it awfully.

No, he's a complete twat.
Perhaps France want him, I could think of no better gift to them.

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

I'm sorry, but as long as the UK is held up on both sides of the pond as a gun control model for us to follow, it will be discussed.

Most of us don't have any problem with it being discussed, in fact I think it should be discussed, as long as the discussions are reasoned, considered and respectful.
Alas far too often they aren't.

And what really annoys many Brits is when the usual 'we saved your asses', 'we kicked your butt's' etc nonsense get trotted out.

If the gun grabbers in the UK,

That's the thing, most of us here in the UK aren't 'gun grabbers', we don't want to grab anything.
I understand why you have your guns in the USA, why you want to keep them and I even think it would be as big a mistake as Prohibition, possibly worse, if you repealed The Second Amendment.

It's just that we don't think that we need any sort of equivallent of it and that it would be calamitous for us if one was introduced.

EU, and UN would leave us alone,

Ditto.

we would not care what you do there.

But obviously some do otherwise why was thread started in the first place?

Like the healthcare debate: as long as we get the "well that's how it is done in the UK" nonsense, then well have to debate how it is actually done in the UK.

A fair point.

It would help a heck of a lot if you guys would call Piers Morgan home. I'd appreciate it awfully.

No, he's a complete twat.
Perhaps France want him, I could think of no better gift to them.

LOL. Fair enough. Star for you and ill pull out my Pimm's in your honor.

reply to post by Cabin

I do not want most of my "fellow countrymen" having the option of attacking me, my family or my friends.

They already have that option. Guns are inanimate objects.

Guns can be used in self-defense, but also as a way of attacking others in a very efficient way with a high likelyhood of death.

I do not care whether you harm yourself, although I do care when you harm me

Your countrymen are already being attacked and criminals have guns if they choose; you can not. Guns in the hands of law abiding citizens even the odds.

Imagine drunk people having access to weapons, it could have catastrophic consequences. It is an extremely rare situation, when someone ends up dead after a drunk fight. Drunk people are not very dangerous, just some pepper spray is enough against them or average fighting skills. Unless you provocate, you won´t have problems with drunk people either...

So your fear is not about guns, your fear is of your neighbors.

Sounds like a personal problem to me. Don't preach to people about freedom when you don't even accept it yourself.

reply to post by seabag


From you

Don't preach to people about freedom when you don't even accept it yourself.

You should take your own advice.

You let Governments take away many of your freedoms since 9/11...what did you do? nadda..nothing.
It is obvious from threads and posts of yours you have something against the people of the UK...jealous much?

No one took our freedom to carry handguns...the public wanted it, big difference.
If we had a referendum about this subject we would vote for no handguns time and time again, why not just accept it and move on eh?.