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We Are Humans, Like It or Not

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posted on May, 30 2013 @ 05:59 AM
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I have recently fell upon several survival threads by ATS members that revealed a disturbing thought: that many ATS members, which I believed to be civilized,intelligent, and kind people, actually supported the idea of killing innocent people to get their foods, shelters, and weapons. People that I thought were supposed to show an example to other civilians. To show how respect and kindness had not disappeared from civilization. And here I find that not even some but many members encourage selfishness, savagery, animal-like instincts and thinking, disdain for other people's life, feeling of superiority...
Well, guess what? We're not animals! We're friggin humans, humans that are supposed to help each other out, and everyone one else. NOT people that kills, that don't care if only themselves survives at the expense of everyone else. Because guess what? The Shadow is exactly doing this: surviving at the expense of citizens. Ready to let us starve to death, not have a home, not have medical care, just so they can live in luxury. You hate them, and yet you want to become exactly them.

And I know where these "Mighty makes right" survival thoughts comes from. They come from movies and TV shows like "Hunger Games" and "Revolution"; these movies promotes the thoughts of "you survive only if you kill everyone else and get their things".
Well we're not in a friggin movie!! That is NOT the way to go. We're not wolves and hyenas, where the alphas let the omegas (including their childrens) starves if there isn't enough food for everybody. We are HUMANS, civilized, kind, compassionate. We help when other ones are in trouble, we don't kill them. We share, we don't steal from dead bodies we created. Otherwise, we become like the rich and whealthy peoples who doesn't care about lower classes, that you hate so much and who put us in trouble.
No, unlike what the media wants you to believe, we're not animals. We have a soul, morality, and ethics. And it tells us that even during survival mode, is it plain WRONG to kill for only you to survive. It's damn plain selfish and very wrong morally. We are not alpha wolves, we don't work on "might makes right"; that's the Shadow's philosophy, and you don't like it, do you? Well don't be that neither, or else, you aren't a very good example for civilized humanity. Even during survival, we help each other out, we share. That's being human. That's what the media and the Shadow tries to take away from humanity. They don't want you to think like a human, they want you to think like a wolf.
Well damn them. We won't surrender and give up our soul to become an animal. I don't know about you, but I'll prefer dying knowing I helped other people survive, than live knowing I forbade life to other people. That's real bravery and heroism during survival: knowing you helped people survive too, not "Look! I have more food than everyone else! I got it from the other guy that I killed!"




posted on May, 30 2013 @ 06:04 AM
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reply to post by starheart
 


Sadly ATS is choc-full of the might-is-right survival fantasists that so rightly irritate you. Hate to break to to you.... and no, we are not all human beings judging by many recent posts here either. Well done for spotting the trending mood here though, most dont manage that as you have no doubt observed



posted on May, 30 2013 @ 06:14 AM
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reply to post by starheart
 


Yeah but Starheart, if people started realizing Dog-Eats-Dog attitude can't make makind evolve, only devolve into animals, then it'll be harder for the Elite to control us! They can control animals with their primitive and predictable behaviour. They can't control geniuses who think outside the box. Don't you see it Starheart? They MUST convince us that devolution and being animals is the only way to go!

Nice thread as usual Starheart!



edit on 30-5-2013 by swanne because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 30 2013 @ 06:29 AM
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reply to post by starheart
 


You are talking in general terms. Sure, mankind is great and smart and caring, and if people killed for food while there is plenty to go around, that would be (not animal-like, but) monstrous.

If that food supply greatly diminished, though, and if it was a matter of my children living or starving to death, I'm taking food from wherever I can get it.

It's not just about my children, either. If I didn't have kids, then it would be about my brother's kids, or my friend's kids. This is what we are - tribal.

Also, on the reverse side, I am 58 years old and in ill health. If I had food while others were starving to death, there is no way I would risk extinction of the human race simply to put food in my mouth. I would give ALL of my food to those with the best chance of surviving this particular crisis.

There's a reason why we evolved into a species with a strong instinct for self-preservation. It's to ensure the survival of our species.



posted on May, 30 2013 @ 07:31 AM
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There may be a few here that are that way Starheart but the majority of people here will help others and work together with others if something happens. I will help others to a point but I will only help those who come and ask and offer to contribute someway to the overall cause. If someone comes and tries to control me touting a gun, saying I have to give them my food then they may become fertilizer for my trees.
The trees need to eat also.

It will be a time when the meek will take over the world....the meek now have guns and will protect themselves.



posted on May, 30 2013 @ 07:43 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


I agree with you here, it would become tribal, family and close friends forming groups and communities to survive. You would then look out for your tribe. Sure alliances could be made for defense and trade. After all the dust settles and small communities start popping up , it would be more like the old west days but with modern tech.



posted on May, 30 2013 @ 07:50 AM
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reply to post by starheart
 





People that I thought were supposed to show an example to other civilians. To show how respect and kindness had not disappeared from civilization. And here I find that not even some but many members encourage selfishness, savagery, animal-like instincts and thinking, disdain for other people's life, feeling of superiority...



The true faces under the masks you see.

S/f to you for telling it how it really is.
edit on 30-5-2013 by AthlonSavage because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 30 2013 @ 08:20 AM
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Originally posted by starheart
IWell, guess what? We're not animals!

Wrong. Absolutely, 100% wrong. We are animal.



We're friggin humans, humans that are supposed to help each other out, and everyone one else. NOT people that kills, that don't care if only themselves survives at the expense of everyone else.

You have a very distorted, unrealistic view of human beings.


We are HUMANS, civilized, kind, compassionate. We help when other ones are in trouble, we don't kill them. We share, we don't steal from dead bodies we created. Otherwise, we become like the rich and whealthy peoples who doesn't care about lower classes, that you hate so much and who put us in trouble.

Extremely distorted. Rich and wealthy become less human by way of wealth? LOL Try reading history books. This grandiose fantastic illusion you've ascribed to human beings couldn't be any further from the truth.


No, unlike what the media wants you to believe, we're not animals.

The media? Try science. Are you getting your information from the bible?


We have a soul, morality, and ethics.

Not one shred of proof for a soul. Morality and ethics... I'm guessing you haven't studied that subject much either, because there are so many problems in human ideas about morality and ethics, you could write books about it.


And it tells us that even during survival mode, is it plain WRONG to kill for only you to survive. It's damn plain selfish and very wrong morally.

Most people would kill/steal in a heartbeat if it meant saving their starving, dying children. Very naive claim. Morality disappears entirely in an angry, fearful crowd. You should study crowd behavior, then your fantastical illusions about our nature may get a wake up call. So much for 'freewill'.


We are not alpha wolves, we don't work on "might makes right"; that's the Shadow's philosophy, and you don't like it, do you?

We most certainly are apex predators. The proof is everywhere, throughout our history, and shows your statement to be completely false. We even had a hand in killing off our competition, the neanderthals.


Well don't be that neither, or else, you aren't a very good example for civilized humanity. Even during survival, we help each other out, we share. That's being human.

The history of our species tells a completely different story. I don't think you really understand what a human really is. A social primate, with social heirarchies that are completely normal to the species.


That's what the media and the Shadow tries to take away from humanity. They don't want you to think like a human, they want you to think like a wolf.

Who is this Shadow? Satan? X-Men villian? You think because we are animals we should be running around and throwing poo at each other and acting like wolves and monkeys? Nonsense. We are still animals, nevertheless.


Well damn them. We won't surrender and give up our soul to become an animal.

Yes, who wants to be like all those other souless animals that have roamed the world for billions of years now? Only we humans have these wonderful 'souls', huh? Such tripe.


I don't know about you, but I'll prefer dying knowing I helped other people survive, than live knowing I forbade life to other people. That's real bravery and heroism during survival: knowing you helped people survive too, not "Look! I have more food than everyone else! I got it from the other guy that I killed!"

You are the master of exaggeration. I agree... it's great helping others to survive, but that's about all I agree with you on.

I always get a good laugh out of the idea we aren't animals. We are special little creatures, unique to the planet. We even have these wonderful 'souls', so that makes us 'higher' than everything else, huh? Complete and total nonsense, but I know I would waste my time giving you links and pointing you towards research that tells a different story about our species. You have your mind made up.

Human utopian ideas are pure fantasy, made up by the religious/spiritual-minded who would rather make up fantasy about our species than embrace facts.

I look forward to you exaggerting my post into something it's not, which will probably be that by having my opinion (based on facts) that I am immoral, selfish, hateful, domineering...etc.

edit on 30-5-2013 by jheherrin because: (no reason given)

edit on 30-5-2013 by jheherrin because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 30 2013 @ 08:45 AM
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I see this problem time and time again in these arguments. The OP is arguing from a individual, subjective standpoint. They see themselves as 'good', and they mistakingly try to observe and view collective human behavior thru their own moral lense. Then you get arguments about how we should act as a collective, even though we don't act that way as a collective and (arguably) never have. Again, social heirarchies in primates are as natural as breathing air, and exists in all human societies for survival/evolutionary functions. You can rail against it, claim it's all lies, toss about your grandiose spiritual rhetoric, but the facts are the facts, and they don't change just because we don't like them. Deny ignorance.
edit on 30-5-2013 by jheherrin because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 30 2013 @ 08:50 AM
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humans that are supposed to help each other out, and everyone one else.


Where is this rule written exactly?

Humans made it because of their survival instincts not because of helping each other out. Homosapiens survived..that would be you and me...by wiping out the other versions of humans such as the Neanderthals.

Sorry but that is the way it is.



posted on May, 30 2013 @ 08:59 AM
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Originally posted by Hopechest



humans that are supposed to help each other out, and everyone one else.


Where is this rule written exactly?

Humans made it because of their survival instincts not because of helping each other out. Homosapiens survived..that would be you and me...by wiping out the other versions of humans such as the Neanderthals.

Sorry but that is the way it is.


Well, yes and no. There are several accounts of one species of animal working with another species. It's called cooperation. So, yes, in order for mankind to have survived this long we needed to help each other out. But, no, this cooperation doesn't separate us from the animal kingdom.



posted on May, 30 2013 @ 09:06 AM
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Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Hopechest



humans that are supposed to help each other out, and everyone one else.


Where is this rule written exactly?

Humans made it because of their survival instincts not because of helping each other out. Homosapiens survived..that would be you and me...by wiping out the other versions of humans such as the Neanderthals.

Sorry but that is the way it is.


Well, yes and no. There are several accounts of one species of animal working with another species. It's called cooperation. So, yes, in order for mankind to have survived this long we needed to help each other out. But, no, this cooperation doesn't separate us from the animal kingdom.


Many animals and humans will and have worked together when it is beneficial. They have also destroyed each other when survival was at stake.

There are animals that will revert to cannibalism if their survival is threatened and humans are just a higher form of animal.

Forgive me for forgetting the exact period, I'm thinking possibly the Younger Dryas period, but its estimated that human population fell as low as 2000-5000 people. We don't know exactly how those few hunter-gatherer tribes behaved but I find it hard to believe they were all that friendly towards each other.

If one group got a kill I think they would be hoarding it rather than sharing.



posted on May, 30 2013 @ 09:08 AM
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reply to post by Hopechest
 





Many animals and humans will and have worked together when it is beneficial. They have also destroyed each other when survival was at stake. There are animals that will revert to cannibalism if their survival is threatened and humans are just a higher form of animal. Forgive me for forgetting the exact period, I'm thinking possibly the Younger Dryas period, but its estimated that human population fell as low as 2000-5000 people. We don't know exactly how those few hunter-gatherer tribes behaved but I find it hard to believe they were all that friendly towards each other. If one group got a kill I think they would be hoarding it rather than sharing.


Can't argue with that.



posted on May, 30 2013 @ 09:50 AM
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reply to post by Hopechest
 

Just to play devil's advocate:


Boehm, having explored data from 48 societies spread across the globe, ranging from small hunting and gathering bands to more sedentary chiefdoms, suggested that with the advent of anatomically modern humans who continued to live in small groups and had not yet domesticated plants and animals, it is very likely that all human societies practised egalitarianism and that most of the time they did so very successfully.


Reverse Dominance Heirarchy



posted on May, 30 2013 @ 11:12 AM
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This spits in the face of all of human history.

Humans are animals. We are made the same, our bodies act the same, our instincts are the same. The only difference is the scope of the organ between our ears. Some might argue that we have developed a soul as well, advanced thinking of consciousness in order determine good and bad.

All that aside, we are no different than any other organism. We do what we have to in order to survive. If that means killing our fellow man, then it is done. Other animals do the same when it comes to extreme survival as well.

Just because someone would be 'willing' to kill another human to provide for his family and himself, does not mean that people WANT to do it. The people that WANT to kill fellow humans are the ones waging wars today in the name of nothing. There is a major difference between and want and a need and if need be, if my survival or my family's was threatened by another human - I wouldn't bad an eyelash to kill them.

But do understand, the only reason I, and many others, would ever kill a fellow human, is because they attempted to harm or steal from us in the first place. It would be their actions that condemn them to death. I do not condone the raid and pillage mentality because you were too ignorant to prepare yourself, but I feel that the people on ATS are not going to be the problem when it comes to that.

The people who would be the problem are the same people who raid and pillage already, albeit in a different sense.



posted on May, 30 2013 @ 12:37 PM
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reply to post by Hopechest
 



Where is this rule written exactly?


The Bible, the Torah, the Koran, etc., etc., take your pick. The "Golden Rule" of Do Unto Others as You Would Have Done Unto You. Besides being religious though, it is just kind of a "human" thing to do, but to each their own too.... Many will not ascribe to the idea.


Humans made it because of their survival instincts not because of helping each other out.


Helping each other out is EXACTLY why we survived. Specialization is the foundation of society. Instead of each person hunting their own meat, cooking it, defending it, etc., different people devoted themselves to different tasks, becoming good at that specialized thing. This specialization allowed us to stay put, and build civilizations. As a group, there was no animal that was a match for the humans as apex predators.

In a SHTF scenario, there will certainly be those who kill and take, but also those who try and build a society, even if a small one. Eventually, as it has before, the organized society will enforce laws, and cull the criminals, but there will certainly be a period of lawlessness following any kind of SHTF event.



edit on 30-5-2013 by Gazrok because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 30 2013 @ 02:11 PM
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A believe the "might makes right" postings on this board are merely the empty blustering of basement commandos trying to convince themselves that they possess the true grit needed to survive.

Sure, there may be a bit of lawlessness called for, for a month or so. But nature abhors a vacuum, and order tends to re-assert itself fairly quickly.

If lawlessness was the superior moral stance, why is it only sporadic, limited to a few "pirate cove" type enclaves on the edge of the map, for a few short years?

Because the weaklings, even though they cannot agree to kill each other, they can ALL agree that the drifters need to be .... "regulated."

(See the plots of both High Plains Drifter and Pale Rider)

By the time order is restored, more raiders have been killed, than hapless peasants. The little people will cry out for a "Strong Leader."


You may need to eat a bit of a long-lost neighbor while no one is looking; might even need to smack your former boss over the head with a rock, because he claims he is sill in charge after the lights have gone out. But you'll still have to bury the evidence, and worry forever after that a forensics team will come along in a few decades and bring you up on charges for crimes against humanity.

It's always been that way. The meek shall inherit the earth. Over and over. and lose it, time and again.



posted on May, 30 2013 @ 02:14 PM
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Originally posted by Gazrok
In a SHTF scenario, there will certainly be those who kill and take, but also those who try and build a society, even if a small one. Eventually, as it has before, the organized society will enforce laws, and cull the criminals, but there will certainly be a period of lawlessness following any kind of SHTF event.


Originally posted by tovenar

A believe the "might makes right" postings on this board are merely the empty blustering of basement commandos trying to convince themselves that they possess the true grit needed to survive.


Exactly. What I think the OP is trying to say, is that people who have an attitude of killing others just because they saw this in movies, or I don't know where, will in fact be those very people who will pull back mankind. You can't build a coherent society if everybody is untrusting of the other because these others are trigger (or blade) happy.

The reason why our current society is still imperfect is EXACTLY because some people think morality is just a myth, and we can kill just because other animals do it.


edit on 30-5-2013 by swanne because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 30 2013 @ 02:20 PM
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reply to post by rickymouse
 



There may be a few here that are that way Starheart but the majority of people here will help others and work together with others if something happens.


(Scoff) I'm seriously doubting it more and more... Up until now, only 3-4 agreed. The rest here, and throughout all the pages of every might-makes-right survival thread says differently.


I will help others to a point but I will only help those who come and ask and offer to contribute someway to the overall cause. If someone comes and tries to control me touting a gun, saying I have to give them my food then they may become fertilizer for my trees. The trees need to eat also.




But yes, of course I wouldn't give up my food to a gun-holding lunatic. But even then, is killing necessary? I could just wound the guy, and if he understand that he doesn't need to point a gun at me in order to have food, then he'll get my help. Why absolutely kill?



posted on May, 30 2013 @ 02:20 PM
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reply to post by antiobama
 



I agree with you here, it would become tribal, family and close friends forming groups and communities to survive. You would then look out for your tribe. Sure alliances could be made for defense and trade. After all the dust settles and small communities start popping up , it would be more like the old west days but with modern tech.


Exactly! And how can people found communities if everyone is killing one another? How can people trust someone else when there's a my-friend-might-want-to-kill-me atmosphere hanging everywhere?




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