Was Jesus Christ just a man? Aetheists vs. Christians, Battle Royale

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by nenothtu

 

What all of this tells me is that you think it's all about you.

I found this hilarious!

As well you should. It's far easier to simply profess amusement at something than it is to actually make the effort to think it through. That makes dismissal so much easier, akin to sticking one's fingers in his ears and chanting "lalalalala".

Whatever floats your boat. It's not MY job to change your mind, nor do I desire to. that would require YOU to reflect within, key word there being "reflect". That would be entirely up to you - not my job to force you to do it. nor is it my place to do so.

You and adjensen attacked my claims because YOU have a college degree! LOL Well, what about the billions of others with little or no education at all? Don'cha think this discussion is more about THEM and not you??? But, seeing as you both are obvioulsy a little more self-centered than the norm I guess maybe it is about you two. Jeez!

Reading comprehension is a good thing to have. they teach that sort of thing in college, I hear.

I didn't "attack" anything because I have an education. I mentioned that in refutation of your asinine theory that only "educated" folk can think right like you do. I am, and I don't. Adjensen is apparently in the same boat. I can honestly say that I know UNEDUCATED folk - not stupid, mind you, simply lacking in education - who believe the same way you do. I can't see where educational level has a thing to do with it, and was attempting to point that out to you. Well, there IS that old thing about horses and water.

In all honesty, I didn't think this discussion was about billions of anyone - I thought it was about whether Jesus was just a man, or even existed. I must have gotten that misapprehension from the thread title.

Damn my lack of reading comprehension!

As far as "self-centered" goes, I'm not the one insisting that everyone needs to get their head right and think like me. That would be you doing that. I don't care what you do or don't believe in. That subject would be between you and your not-god. What joy you can snatch in this one life is all that you'll ever have before the curtain goes down. I think we can agree on that much, even if we can't agree on whether there is anything beyond the curtain or not. That being the case, why on Earth would I try to take all you're ever going to have away from you?

If I don't want to take YOUR joy, why would you insist that I give MINE up? I really can't recall the last time I killed anyone, or raped them, or even just beat them down because my God told me to. Why do you insist on trying to eliminate him if he's not doing anything to you at all?

I'm also not the one arguing that simply doing away with religion is somehow going to magically change human nature, and make bad people stop doing bad things. THAT notion, to me, is closer to the fairy tale that you keep keep mentioning.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by nenothtu

 

What all of this tells me is that you think it's all about you.

I found this hilarious! You and adjensen attacked my claims because YOU have a college degree! LOL Well, what about the billions of others with little or no education at all? Don'cha think this discussion is more about THEM and not you??? But, seeing as you both are obvioulsy a little more self-centered than the norm I guess maybe it is about you two. Jeez!

What I attacked was your ludicrous claim that if there was no religion, "children would study science instead". That's wrong from both directions -- people of faith are scientists, myself as an example, and you, as an atheist are apparently not a scientist. People study science because they want to, not because they're "not distracted by fairy tales."

Science is not the end-all-be-all that defines all reality, and there's nothing wrong with people who aren't interested in it, for whatever reason. But these claims that science is the answer to all of our problems is just simply wrong. Here's an article that you're not likely to read, but should: The Folly of Scientism.

Hi, I started this thread and I had a very strange near death experience. ( NDE ) when I was 13 I was at this kids house and somehow it came up that I didn't know what sex was. I said I liked this girl for a good six years. After I left the house one of the kids there told this girls boyfriend who was in eight grade just like me. I was walking along tracks in the dark and this kid followed me with three of his friends and I got stabbed in the boy private area. I had three brain hemmorrages , was in a coma for a week and had three weeks removed from memory. They said I was awake for two weeks after coma but don't remember .

When I started to remember and woke up, I couldn't speak or move the right side of my body. It felt like I had slept for a hundred years. In my teenage years I guess I was an atheist. I used to listen to music , sometimes Manson or Nine Inch Nails and they both hate religion. After you hear something in a song over and over it kind of rubs off. My Near Death Experience changed me I looked at it as I already died and there is just sleep unconscious or Rest in Peace. I was a nieve kid and had my head smashed, it took awhile to get better.

As I got older I choose to be an agnostic, because anything is possible and I didn't want to close my mind to possibilities. Also my family has beliefs, religious. I think with experience and maturity as you learn things about the world your opinions can change. I heard atheism compared to a sleeping rock, how do you get life from nothing or a rock. Sometimes Catholism looks like its too good to be true or a dream or man made, I don't know. I read every post and the religious are very passionate about their beliefs. But I never went to church and that seems like another world to me.

Originally posted by LastStarfighter

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by LastStarfighter

 

1. Attack Religion

Religion deserves to be attacked, critiqued, deconstructed, and exposed for what it is.

Why don't you expose it for what is here?

Its not obvious on ATS its obvious as you observe the world (what are you missing).

reply to post by nenothtu

Whatever floats your boat. It's not MY job to change your mind, nor do I desire to. that would require YOU to reflect within,

I do reflect within. I know who and what I am. I'm a human animal living here and now. My goal is the same as every other animal - to eat or be eaten, to spread my seed, to die. In order to be successful as one of nature's creatures I must understand that my species gathers in tribes, tribes that require compromise in order to serve my needs and the needs of others. That's all.

reply to post by jiggerj


I understand what you are saying here, and I respect it, but I have never quite understood why these alleged "compromises" invariably involve me and "my kind" being required to give something up, but not anyone else. I'm just not seeing where the "compromise" part of that comes in. That isn't limited to matters of religion, but in the context of this thread that is what I'm expected to give up here. It might not be so bad, but while we are expected to give up something, NO ONE gains anything, so it's just a net loss for all. This is why I've left the confines of the tribe and struck off on my own. The tribe is eating itself into extinction, and spiraling down the drain.

reply to post by Spawn2001


ATS is just not the forum for this kind of topic, mainly because the children who give their cliched answers profoundly lack education in religion and philosophy. The forum is mainly here to badmouth traditional thought, western values and its foundations . I read slack-jawed at the amateurish rubbish hurled out by atheists and other haters whose agenda is nothing but pure anger. Objectivity is nowhere to be found. There's not one ounce of tissue in your cerebellums that could spot a fallacy if it was in front of you. If you want a fair philosophical examination of THE most written about figure in human history, go to a philosophy forum elsewhere on the Web. Looking for a fair critique of Christianity on ATS is like going to Rense.com for a fair look at Jews. Not going to happen.

Personally I believe that the actions spoken of in the New Testament are pretty much authentic. And the fact that there were so many apostles of Jesus, His students, who went from not really believing most of what He said, to having a willingness to be executed in His name, in my opinion shows that there was much more to Jesus than what atheists claim. If one reads and understands the Bible they will come to realize the symmetry between the continuation of Judaism into Christianity, and they will also realize that everything Jesus preached and predicted made sense from a Biblical point of view, and was likely true.

I firmly believe that He would not have had the following He did if He were not actually performing miracles. And the fact that He performed miracles is a testament to His divinity. And not only that, but all of His disciples performed miracles in His name, again attesting to His divinity. So I believe that what ancient Christians taught is the truth...God sent Jesus to die for our sins. See before Christ there was the law of Moses. One could say there was no sin before this law, because without law, how can one break the law? Jesus dying on the cross was the ultimate sacrifice for the misdeeds of all people. And this is what I was talking about when I mentioned the beauty of scripture, which is realized when one sees all of the connections that point to this idea, which I believe to be fact.

So through Jesus' actions, and the actions of all those associated with Him, I believe there is no way He was just a mortal. He was both mortal, and divine. That is what Christianity teaches, because that is what Jesus said. Many people have questions about Christianity, and think that it does not make sense, but in actuality it does. It makes perfect sense. It is just that many people do not take the time to both read the Bible, mainly the NT, and then read the commentaries that many theologians have written regarding the text. That is paramount to understanding. Trust me, even when one thinks they understand a passage, unless they speak ancient Greek or Coptic, there are going to be nuances, and sometimes whole ideas, that are missed. Thus the true meaning and teaching is missed.

reply to post by nenothtu

The tribe is eating itself into extinction, and spiraling down the drain.

Who's to say that this isn't part of nature's design? Maybe not into extinction, but a way of culling the herd, just as we do to deer and moose and all other animals that over-populate their environment. Every prey species is controlled by predator species. Every predator species is controlled by the population of its prey species.

We like to think that we have outsmarted Mother Nature, but we have some SERIOUS flu epidemics coming our way that will make the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic look like a mild cold. And, no god is going to stop it.

reply to post by nenothtu

That isn't limited to matters of religion, but in the context of this thread that is what I'm expected to give up here. It might not be so bad, but while we are expected to give up something,

NO ONE gains anything,

Truth! We gain the horrifyingly cold hard truth! The truth is all we have to live for. Just imagine how ANNOYING it would be if everyone suddenly started saying to you, praise be to the Great Turtle, my brother! This is what I hear and how I feel when people say praise the lord (that no one has ever seen!) At least we can see turtles.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Who's to say that this isn't part of nature's design? Maybe not into extinction, but a way of culling the herd, just as we do to deer and moose and all other animals that over-populate their environment. Every prey species is controlled by predator species. Every predator species is controlled by the population of its prey species.

I'm guessing it IS part of the design, because it seems to work so well. I'm not even going to get into that whole pissing contest about how a design requires a designer, though. That seems an eminently pointless discussion to me.

We like to think that we have outsmarted Mother Nature, but we have some SERIOUS flu epidemics coming our way that will make the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic look like a mild cold. And, no god is going to stop it.

I've yet to be able to figure out a reason why a God SHOULD stop it. That would seem to be counterproductive, and you would think a deity would not spend very much time working against himself.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by nenothtu

 

That isn't limited to matters of religion, but in the context of this thread that is what I'm expected to give up here. It might not be so bad, but while we are expected to give up something,

NO ONE gains anything,

Truth! We gain the horrifyingly cold hard truth! The truth is all we have to live for. Just imagine how ANNOYING it would be if everyone suddenly started saying to you, praise be to the Great Turtle, my brother! This is what I hear and how I feel when people say praise the lord (that no one has ever seen!) At least we can see turtles.

"Truth" as you see it? What if your truth (or mine for that matter) isn't THE Truth at all? Why should either of us force everyone else to recognize our "truth" as THE Truth? Are they incapable of thinking for themselves and finding their own? If they are incapable of independent thought, of what Earthly use are they, and why don't we just put a bag limit on them?

I don't care if they worship turtles or even my favorite, Guard Rails. I really don't care what they worship. I once ran into a guy preaching from a street corner, worshiping brooms. No lie. He even had little tracts printed up to hand out explaining his broom religion. His god was named Oyez. I might at some point let them understand that I am not their "brother", as my mother never saw them, but that's about it. They can go on their merry way spreading the religion of the Great Turtle (or the Almighty Guard Rail, or The Broom of Ultimate Doom) to their heart's content. As long as I'm not forced into their religion, why should I care? It's THEIR religion, not mine, and I'm pretty used to people who want to explain their religion. I'm able to think for myself, so they're ultimately harmless.

Even if they are worshiping The Great SNAPPING Turtle!

ETA: re-reading that, it looks like you are trying to say that YOU will never have "Truth" if I AM worshiping Bumble Bees. Why would my worship of Bumble Bees affect YOUR grasp on "The Truth"? How do YOU magically gain "Truth" if I give up the worship of Bumble Bees? Why is your "Truth" dependent on MY belief?

reply to post by nenothtu

"Truth" as you see it?

No, that's one of my pet peeves. There are a few words that people use to their own personal advantage that they have no right to. Everyone can have an opinion, but a truth MUST be universal. It MUST be fact.

Truth: At some point in our lives we will die. (Correct.)
Truth: There is a god. (Incorrect. Even if there is a god, we have yet to make it verifiable. So, it cannot be considered a truth.)

Proof: Two oranges plus two oranges = four oranges. (Correct.)
Proof: Ten seconds after I walked out of the store, it blew up. I don't care that ten people died in the explosion, it is proof that god is looking out for me! (Incorrect, and insane.)

Love: Everyone can tell us what love is, and everyone else will disagree.

Right: Same here. Some may think it is 'right' to spank their kids. Hell, some even think it is right to honor kill their kids. So, 'right' is not a universal truth if it can vary from region to region of the world.

reply to post by nenothtu

ETA: re-reading that, it looks like you are trying to say that YOU will never have "Truth" if I AM worshiping Bumble Bees. Why would my worship of Bumble Bees affect YOUR grasp on "The Truth"? How do YOU magically gain "Truth" if I give up the worship of Bumble Bees? Why is your "Truth" dependent on MY belief?

This is going to sound harsh, but I have to say it. Why would my way of worshiping allah, and how it compels me to blow up your family bother you? Do you see what I'm saying?

Sure, you can say, "But MY belief in Jesus is peaceful so you can't compare it with Islamic Extremism!" Well, your support of the belief in Jesus also supports the long-held beliefs of the Vatican. Beliefs such as Christians in Africa should not use condoms to control the spread of AIDS. The belief that people living in abject poverty should not use birth control. These are dangerous and irrational beliefs.

Example: What if I believed that discarded refrigerators shouldn't need to have the door taken off, and that if a child crawls in and dies of suffocation it is not the refrigerators fault, but the parent's fault. Once a few children die this way, even if I still blame the parents shouldn't I agree that the doors should be taken off to prevent this from ever happening again? of course.

Here's the odd part. In the U.S. less than 300 children have died from getting themselves stuck in a refrigerator, but millions of people follow the practice of removing the doors from discarded refrigerators. Tell me, how many millions of men, women, and children have been slaughtered because of someone else's religious beliefs? Yet, no one can see just how dangerous religious beliefs are, and how all religions should be totally and utterly outlawed and destroyed. (Right now I'm thinking you will still defend religion, even though thousands will die because of it this year, but you will remove your discarded refrigerator door to protect a few children.)

The moths moths and butterflies are sending me their wispers.

How little people know of the world. Who here would squash this beautiful creature with sacred geometry on it?

It has the equation of the universe on its wings. Combine the Runes G O D and youl have a symbol which is everything in its interconnected infinity.

All 5 elements with the process of accension and de-accension. Matter conversion between the 4 physical elements and the 5th non physical which is above all and below none. But connected to all.

Funny this moth flew through my window. My friend tossed it out the window twice and it flew back in each like like a boomarange he would throw it and it would stop in mid air then rush back inside the window and hide somewhere.

Eventually a day or 2 later i turned my light off for a few minutes. Turned it back on because i decided i wanted to grab some water. And there he was sitting above my light switch. So i took a picture because i thought its design was unique. Also i don't see many moths like this i have only seen these in books and on documentaries.

Odin used butterflies to send messages by placing runes on them. These were called whispers.

Check out my whisper the gods sent me.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by nenothtu

 

"Truth" as you see it?

No, that's one of my pet peeves. There are a few words that people use to their own personal advantage that they have no right to. Everyone can have an opinion, but a truth MUST be universal. It MUST be fact.

Ok, we can run with that. What "truth" is it that you think you would suddenly gain if I were to instantaneously stop believing this instant? What new "truth" would you have then that you haven't got now? What "horrifyingly cold hard truth" would suddenly start existing for you with the extinguishing of my belief?

By the way, if you truly believe that "The truth is all we have to live for", I truly feel sad for you. I have a wife, a son, sisters, and a great many other things to live for besides some "horrifying truth".

So what "facts" have you to gain by the demise of MY belief? Why would you hinge your satisfaction on what I think?

Truth: At some point in our lives we will die. (Correct.)
Truth: There is a god. (Incorrect. Even if there is a god, we have yet to make it verifiable. So, it cannot be considered a truth.)

So all you have to hang your hat on is what you can see, what you can pinch. If that is the case, why do my beliefs matter? you can neither see nor pinch what I believe.

You cannot even prove I exist. This could be a horrible nightmare your having.

Proof: Two oranges plus two oranges = four oranges. (Correct.)
Proof: Ten seconds after I walked out of the store, it blew up. I don't care that ten people died in the explosion, it is proof that god is looking out for me! (Incorrect, and insane.)

Precisely. All that proves is that it was not your time to check out. It does not prove to you or to anyone else who or what made that determination. As I've said before, a god will not jump through hoops to be noticed, nor will he subject himself to experiments like some cosmic guinea pig. I know I wouldn't if I were a god. What a colossal waste of time that would be for a deity!

Love: Everyone can tell us what love is, and everyone else will disagree.

Right: Same here. Some may think it is 'right' to spank their kids. Hell, some even think it is right to honor kill their kids. So, 'right' is not a universal truth if it can vary from region to region of the world.

edit on 5/25/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

Such notions cannot hinge on the whims of an individual. We do not decide "right","wrong", "love", etc. What we THINK does not affect absolutes in any way - it only means that we accept or reject them. I could SAY that the sun is made of marshmallow cream. I could even believe it. That would not affect the truth of what the sun IS made of - which, by the way, is not something that can be proven, either. We have no instrumentation that would survive a probe of it's depths, so we cannot prove what it is made of. We can only theorize and surmise from math combined with particles we catch in space, which might not be what they claim to be at all.

Science itself is not as hard and fast as many would claim. That's why theories are ditched every day in favor of other theories that account for new observations. Those theories will in time likely fall as well, as even newer observations are made that the old model doesn't account for. So, strictly speaking, science doesn't deal in "fact" or "truth" either - it deals in probabilities, which can be changed on nothing more than a new set of observations.

Originally posted by jiggerj

This is going to sound harsh, but I have to say it. Why would my way of worshiping allah, and how it compels me to blow up your family bother you? Do you see what I'm saying?

It wouldn't. I lay down and sleep next to a Muslim every night and have not yet gotten my head chopped off nor found a grenade in my supper. I think you may have a skewed understanding of Islam, and just what Allah compels folks to do. I can't help what Wahabbis CLAIM Allah says - they can't support their religion WITH their religion. You seem to be making the same mistake they do... mixing religion with politics. That's always an "explosive" mixture.

Sure, you can say, "But MY belief in Jesus is peaceful so you can't compare it with Islamic Extremism!" Well, your support of the belief in Jesus also supports the long-held beliefs of the Vatican. Beliefs such as Christians in Africa should not use condoms to control the spread of AIDS. The belief that people living in abject poverty should not use birth control. These are dangerous and irrational beliefs.

Nope. I don't compare my beliefs with Islam OR the Vatican. My beliefs are at times anything but peaceful, but it's not my place to get violent over them. I figure a deity can do his own fighting. Doesn't need me to do it. If I were more powerful than that deity, such that he needed me to do his fighting for him, then he would by rights have to worship ME. I don't fight for gods, I fight only for people. Jesus never mentions condoms. I could believe in Jesus and not believe a thing the Vatican has to say, since they have a great deal to say that never came from Jesus. I could care less what people in Africa do, Christian or otherwise. I do believe that if some one is that poor, then maybe they should be hunting for food rather than screwing around and making more mouths to feed, but it's not my job to think for them - or their hungry kids. They make 'em, they can deal with 'em. It ain't my house, so it ain't my rules, and I'm not the one paying their bills.

Example: What if I believed that discarded refrigerators shouldn't need to have the door taken off, and that if a child crawls in and dies of suffocation it is not the refrigerators fault, but the parent's fault. Once a few children die this way, even if I still blame the parents shouldn't I agree that the doors should be taken off to prevent this from ever happening again? of course.

Bad example. Refrigerators haven't had latches in years. Still, I get what you're saying. Since you established earlier that there is no absolute moral standard in your mind, and it's all relative, culturally dependent, then that would depend entirely on your own subjective willingness to cause the death off a child. Harsh though it may be, there are people in this world who are ok with that, and you've already established that your morality cannot be superior to theirs, since you believe there can be no moral "truth".

Here's the odd part. In the U.S. less than 300 children have died from getting themselves stuck in a refrigerator, but millions of people follow the practice of removing the doors from discarded refrigerators. Tell me, how many millions of men, women, and children have been slaughtered because of someone else's religious beliefs? Yet, no one can see just how dangerous religious beliefs are, and how all religions should be totally and utterly outlawed and destroyed. (Right now I'm thinking you will still defend religion, even though thousands will die because of it this year, but you will remove your discarded refrigerator door to protect a few children.)

I'm not quite as old as you, but almost. I'm old enough to remember those deaths. I even saw one, years ago. Not pretty. Still, it's not comparable to religion, because a refrigerator is a concrete, thing. Religions are abstract. You can measure a refrigerator, so it is, for you, "truth" to be dealt with. A religion, by contrast, is more insubstantial. it is not "truth". No one has EVER been killed by religion. People are ALWAYS killed by something more substantial, generally other people. Nor has anyone ever been killed by a belief - guns, knives, machetes, etc. do a much better job.

No one will die because of religion this year, just like no one ever has died because of religion before. People die because of politics and greed, sort of, but more directly because of other people. Those are more directly addressable than something as insubstantial as "religion". Try addressing the perpetrators of it, not the excuses they may give. You'll have much better luck. Merely addressing their excuse simply allows them to come up with another excuse, and keep right on chugging along.

reply to post by nenothtu


You know the American dream isn't going to last long you know. And people will have to wake up to the reality of the universe.

Instead of wallowing in darkness until the leviathans come to end that game of monopoly your taking part in.

The sad truth is that many people will die. Simply because they do not understand the forces of this universe nor do they understand Which side is which.

Natural disasters. Hell hounds, And reptillians will be the end of the meek that walk on this planet.

There is only truth and meaningless lives will not be remembered even if every human on earth including myself tried. Just wouldn't happen. So what ever story you have for yourself written will be dust in the wind.

As for the soul. Its only immortal if you follow the rules and get very very lucky.
Reincarnation is real but don't expect every soul to make it through whats coming.
Continue to your family guy and w.e meaningless task you were doing.

reply to post by CrypticSouthpaw


I suppose the "American Dream" is subjective as well. Mine has trees, near impenetrable brush, poisonous snakes, big hairy spiders, the biggest black cat I've ever seen (saw it two days ago, and It was as big as my hound dog), and a great many other things, none of which are money or clothes or cars, etc. It's a jungle here, and I'm ecstatic about that. I'm not sure from your post which "American Dream" you're referring to.

I've eaten snakes before - how much harder could a reptilian be to cook?

I don't expect to be remembered, nor do I care whether I am or not. Most of what you mention in that post is insubstantial and inconsequential to me in extremis.

The truth is that EVERYBODY will die eventually, not just "a lot of people". C'est la vie. The sad thing is that not everyone will have truly lived.

What "game of monopoly" am I partaking in? I don't even bother my neighbors - it's too far to walk even if I wanted to.

Not sure what I am witnessing here, Cryptic is going into an area uncomfortable to the natives and is being attacked. Its perspective is to me UNIQUE in its innocence/explaination of "what is happening here?". Dont shoot the messenger it has more in the mail bag than meets the eye.