US Spends Much More on Education, but the Student Performance is Much Worse, Why?

Originally posted by smyleegrl

I have a masters degree and post grad credits. I've worked as a teacher for over ten years. My annual salary, before taxes, is less than $35,000. Consider I spend roughly 500+ a year on school supplies, that's not a great paycheck. Also keep in mind I spend about 75 hours a week working.

Now, I'm very grateful for my salary...but no one goes into teaching to get rich.

Wow Smylee... that's a pathetic income you guys are getting paid down there.

Here in Canada, $35,000 per annum is the starting salary for a teacher fresh out of university. By the time they're in their 10th year, they're earning a salary of around $50 - 60,000 per annum.

It's pretty obvious to me the US does not value their teachers and the important role they play in molding future generations.

Might have been mentioned already, didn't read all the threads, but one reason would be cost of running a school is more in the US than in Europe, or anywhere else.

Unless they took that into consideration, I didn't see anywhere they mentioned it?

Originally posted by CranialSponge

Originally posted by smyleegrl

I have a masters degree and post grad credits. I've worked as a teacher for over ten years. My annual salary, before taxes, is less than $35,000. Consider I spend roughly 500+ a year on school supplies, that's not a great paycheck. Also keep in mind I spend about 75 hours a week working.

Now, I'm very grateful for my salary...but no one goes into teaching to get rich.

Wow Smylee... that's a pathetic income you guys are getting paid down there.

Here in Canada, $35,000 per annum is the starting salary for a teacher fresh out of university. By the time they're in their 10th year, they're earning a salary of around $50 - 60,000 per annum.

It's pretty obvious to me the US does not value their teachers and the important role they play in molding future generations.

That's it. I've heard all I need to know. I want to move to Canada.

My husband taught two years in Honduras. He said the cultural opinion of teachers was worlds difference...teachers were treated on par with doctors and lawyers. They were also paid better.

A lot of the best teachers don't teach in public school for long....they go to a private school where they can make more money and not deal with the headaches of bureaucratic red tape. That's one of the reasons there are so many substandard teachers in public school. You get what you pay for.

All the money being spent on the US education system doesn't make it to the classrooms where its needed. I don't know where it goes, but by the time it makes it to the individual school level, its gone..

reply to post by ANOK


It is not much higher to run a school, depends on the country though. Eastern Europe is cheaper, although Northern is probably much higher.

The overall living costs are higher in Europe, salaries are quite similar for teachers, many countries also provide free lunches for school children. The taxes are very high, which makes the costs higher. Around 20-30% sales tax. Building/renovation of schools costs more on average. Although there is less regulation. Less standardized tests. Less administrative staff overally, as far as I have heard from US. In my school there was a total of 3 fully administrative members : Principal, finances and one secretary - no employee cars or any perks. Although there were part time teacher/part time adminstrative members, around 3-5. The school had around 1000 students total.

Sports is not as in US. There are nearly no school teams, some schools have small stadium for their activites, most do not. There are hundreds of private sports clubs for kids though. Most kids go to some training or two.

Textbooks are cheaper overally. I could get any textbook I used in schools for around 10-15 dollars. It is not business round here.

Lots of computers are also used. Every class has to have at least one computer and a beamer, although there are many classes which have computers for every student.

Also every homework, absence and grade is in the digital system, so parents are only a click away from all the information about their kids.

I do not know about the latter two in US.

Originally posted by smyleegrl

Originally posted by tallcool1
reply to post by smyleegrl

 

Smylee - Please don't get me wrong. I have the utmost of respect for a lot of teachers who, in my opinion, are severely overworked and underpaid. But there has been in the recent past (can't remember when/where) that there was the idea of annually testing teachers and basing their continued employment/pay on it...and they lost their collective sh!t at the thought of it. I believe it was here in Washington state, but I could be wrong. That's really what I was referring to, but I had already been a little long winded in my post.

As with everything, I know not all teachers are like that. I know a great many only wish to teach. I do sincerely apologize if I offended you or anyone else...but there are a number of teachers that I am aware of who are...less than deserving of their jobs.

You didn't offend me, no worries. I needed to vent, we're in the testing season right now and it's stressful.

The idea of merit pay has advantages and disadvantages. Consider my school; I have a couple of kids who are homeless and sleeping in their cars. I have four students with little or no English skills. Because I'm the grade level chair, I have the students who have severe discipline problems (one threw a rock and hit me in the back, it left a huge bruise and this is first grade!)

So the students in my class are not, generally speaking, going to be the brightest of the bunch (I am NOT saying they cannot learn). Working with this group has been a real challenge. The majority came to me not knowing the alphabet or the sounds each letter made.

Rising kindergarten students are supposed to be on reading level D. In my class, I had 1 D, 3 Cs, and the rest were reading behaviors. The requirement for the end of first grade is that the child be on level J. That's a growth of 6 levels.

After giving the reading test last week, only seven of my eighteen students were reading on level J or higher. However, all of my students had grown at least6 levels, with 4 students growing 8 levels and 2students growing 9 levels.

Now,if my pay was based solely on the number of kids reading on J, I'd be screwed. But if my pay is based on the GROWTH of my students, I'd be sitting pretty.

That's the main argument against merit pay.

Sorry this took a couple of days to respond back. With that said -

Thank you Smylee - I never really thought about it from your point of view...or perhaps I just haven't really had it explained to me from the perspective of a good teacher. I was only looking at it as a "rewards based on results" perspective - which is just how my accounting brain is wired I guess.
Now for the second time in a single thread I am forced to admit that I am wrong due to my complete ignorance of the subject. And I am being truly sincere with that statement. With the facts you have been able to pound through my thick skull, I can't help but be amazed that there are any good teachers left in America at all! You must really love teaching (or children - or both) to dedicate so much of your life to something that refuses to reward you with the financial windfall that you truly deserve. I certainly couldn't do it.
And look at you now. Even when you are not teaching your students, you are able to take a 48 year old, hard headed, stuck in his ways, old man and teach him something!
I only wish that our children would look up to people like you as their heros intead of the bubbleheaded, self-absorbed idiots on reality shows that they idolize now. Perhaps our country would once again become the great nation it once was.
Thank you for your dedication to our future!

Thank you Smylee - I never really thought about it from your point of view...or perhaps I just haven't really had it explained to me from the perspective of a good teacher. I was only looking at it as a "rewards based on results" perspective - which is just how my accounting brain is wired I guess. Now for the second time in a single thread I am forced to admit that I am wrong due to my complete ignorance of the subject. And I am being truly sincere with that statement. With the facts you have been able to pound through my thick skull, I can't help but be amazed that there are any good teachers left in America at all! You must really love teaching (or children - or both) to dedicate so much of your life to something that refuses to reward you with the financial windfall that you truly deserve. I certainly couldn't do it.

reply to post by tallcool1


What a majority of people don't understand is that the mechanics of learning are extremely complex. There are multiple factors at play, and quite honestly many of these factors are of more importance than the teacher. We have to consider the home environment of the child, biological factors such as learning rates, gifts, or "disabilities,", the complex social structure where the child lives, background knowledge, etc. I could keep going but I think you understand my point.

There's this misconception that all children come to school ready to learn, and all on an equal playing field. This isn't the case. Each child learns differently and at a different pace. This is why I detest standardized testing. There's no room for individuality of the child.

Many people hear about the terrible shape of the school system and come up with a simple equation. Poor test results must be the fault of the teacher. The truth is far more complex.

Thank you very much for the kind words. I created a thread just last night about my struggle to decide if I will continue my career in education or not. Your reply was quite timely, and sorely needed.

From the bottom of my heart...thank you.

reply to post by Cabin


American schools though are a lot fancier than the ones at least in England. So I think they spend more money on them than they do in Europe.

Some high schools here have sports stadiums, in England they have a field, and you stand and watch from the side line.

Best high school football stadiums

Originally posted by Cabin
I came across this interesting study, where the education spending and student performance are compared in different countries - Mexico, Brazil, Australia, Japan, Canada, France, Germany, Finland, Denmark, Russia, South Korea, UK and USA.



U.S. EDUCATION SPENDING AND PERFORMANCE VS. THE WORLD [INFOGRAPHIC]


The results show that USA is annually spending on education (per school kid) more than any of the other countries mentioned above (over 1/3 more than any other European country), while the results of US are much poorer.

US Spending on Education: 1st
US Sciences Scores 9th
US Math Scores 10th

Where do the things go wrong? What are the reasons behind the lower quality of education in sciences and math. Overpaid teachers? Weak system? Weak standards?

To be honest, it was really surprising study to see. I knew about the weaker scores in sciences and math, but the money spent was stunning. Nearly 8k per kid in one year, compared to nearly 6k with the nearest contenders in the list is a lot.

Where does it go wrong?

edit on 14-5-2013 by Cabin because: (no reason given)

Look at who the teachers are(predominantly women), and look at the conditions those teachers had when they went to college to become teachers(feminist hate rallies, feminist "all men are evil" propaganda from the 80's to the 90's. Heck, Feminist Mary Daly, taught a girls only gender class in which she advocated the mass extermination of males, she resigned as a professor when she was required to admit male students to the program).

Heck new studies show that female teachers give lower grades to male students for the same level of work that they give female students higher grades, and male students expect to receive lower grades because of their gender when the teacher is female.

www.terry.uga.edu...

This is out and out systematic gender discrimination far worse then anything women(except perhaps women of color) ever had to endure.

Originally posted by Cabin
The results show that USA is annually spending on education (per school kid) more than any of the other countries mentioned above (over 1/3 more than any other European country), while the results of US are much poorer.

US Spending on Education: 1st
US Sciences Scores 9th
US Math Scores 10th

Where do the things go wrong?

Because they don't teach science in classes anymore. They teach politic-backed propaganda. They teach assumptions instead of facts. Each times the politics changes, or the latest fad on assumptions comes out, the student has trouble keeping up.

This does not surprise me at all. The top scoring countries all have a strong focus on government education, so they get a system offering good value for money with a high rate of efficiency.

By contrast the US invites private corporations to become heavily involved with education, which inevitably results in higher costs and lower efficiency. You will see this every time the private sector takes over a public service. It's the same with healthcare (Time magazine has a good article on this).





^^ Hmmm... sorta tells it's own story, doesn't it?

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by Cabin

 

ahhh..

The answer is really simple. Just because you spend a million dollars on a boat, doesn't mean you bought the best boat, or got the best deal.

Education in the US is a business, just like any other and they treat it as such. This means that the people who run the show are well taken care of, but the people receiving the service, the students in this case, are treated like a nuisance.

^^ Well said.

Originally posted by tinner07
Here in America we have kids that dont speak our language.

This is common in the UK, Europe and Australia.

reply to post by Cabin


People are dumber - devolution.

reply to post by smyleegrl


My brother and sister in law teach in Dubai - they get a grogeous apartment / huge, rent free, bill free and NO tax.

Lots of Americans teaching there too, plus it is a very safe place for families.

reply to post by Cabin


It has nothing to do with the per capita expenditure but has a lot to do with the student attitude. For 99% of kids the way to a better life (even in these times) is education. I am amazed at the US records for maths as it was widely noted back in the 90's that american maths was in decline - my source is Paulos's books on innumeracy.

reply to post by Cabin


While being in school, i learned one thing and one thing only, that is not education or learning. It is a drip fed information system consisting of facts and numbers, basically data keeping.

Children are no longer taught to teach them self's and there is certainly a lot less people qualified to teach such a skill, instead we are seated for (this is funny) 8 hours a day, taking in nothing but the experience of someone else, and their adventures, discovery and downfalls.

(the only reason i said it's funny, because then people work 8 hours a day on the same schedule basically, after the training)

The homes of the family's and the land it self is no longer our education, we no longer experience first hand the knowledge this earth (creator, god, etc etc what have yah) is willing to provide, instead we are taught to hate it, like any weed we spray with chemicals, we are taught to destroy it ( most weeds are edible, they replaced native plants with corn and such).

It is a domestication of people and the land, turning people into crops. Think of your pets if you do own any, it's trained (schooled) to behave in patterns suited for the master. We treat our animals this way because we are reflecting our treatment on them.

Most European countries often take tours around or inside the country to learn about history (that includes math, art, science, etc etc...), giving students the first hand adventure and desire to explore and seek knowledge for them self's, but of course even they return to a class room at one point.

Originally posted by smyleegrl

Originally posted by tallcool1
reply to post by smyleegrl

 

Smylee - Please don't get me wrong. I have the utmost of respect for a lot of teachers who, in my opinion, are severely overworked and underpaid. But there has been in the recent past (can't remember when/where) that there was the idea of annually testing teachers and basing their continued employment/pay on it...and they lost their collective sh!t at the thought of it. I believe it was here in Washington state, but I could be wrong. That's really what I was referring to, but I had already been a little long winded in my post.

As with everything, I know not all teachers are like that. I know a great many only wish to teach. I do sincerely apologize if I offended you or anyone else...but there are a number of teachers that I am aware of who are...less than deserving of their jobs.

You didn't offend me, no worries. I needed to vent, we're in the testing season right now and it's stressful.

The idea of merit pay has advantages and disadvantages. Consider my school; I have a couple of kids who are homeless and sleeping in their cars. I have four students with little or no English skills. Because I'm the grade level chair, I have the students who have severe discipline problems (one threw a rock and hit me in the back, it left a huge bruise and this is first grade!)

So the students in my class are not, generally speaking, going to be the brightest of the bunch (I am NOT saying they cannot learn). Working with this group has been a real challenge. The majority came to me not knowing the alphabet or the sounds each letter made.

Rising kindergarten students are supposed to be on reading level D. In my class, I had 1 D, 3 Cs, and the rest were reading behaviors. The requirement for the end of first grade is that the child be on level J. That's a growth of 6 levels.

After giving the reading test last week, only seven of my eighteen students were reading on level J or higher. However, all of my students had grown at least6 levels, with 4 students growing 8 levels and 2students growing 9 levels.

Now,if my pay was based solely on the number of kids reading on J, I'd be screwed. But if my pay is based on the GROWTH of my students, I'd be sitting pretty.

That's the main argument against merit pay.

Here is another example of the con side of merit pay. I teach 4th grade and we split the classes up for reading based on their reading levels. We have kids that range from 1-2nd grade reading level to high school. We choose which level group we want to teach and this year I chose to take the bottom 10. All of them were reading at a level of 1st-2nd grade. The high group all read at a level of 8th grade or higher. By the end of the year, I had some kids go up two grade levels. In my opinion, that was great! They had grown so much in one year. However, on paper, my class was still reading below grade level as an average.

When standardized testing time came, my class probably scored at or below level. The other class probably scored all advanced. We won't see the scores until this fall. If we are to be paid based on these scores, obviously I would not be getting paid much. To me, this would just cause teachers to refuse to teach the bottom. Or it would stop us from splitting the classes which wouldn't benefit the students imo. Why volunteer to teach the bottom if your pay check and possibly your job depends on this? I volunteer because I like it, and I like seeing them get to grade level. Thankfully my job nor my paycheck is dependent on these scores. (Yet)

I'll make one more post to address school spending.

I want to share some things about my school, because we really have had a great improvement in our money situation. I work in a very small rural district. Three years ago each grade had 3 teachers in the elementary and each class had about 15-20 students. Very small. However, the school was facing a financial problem and they were looking at the possibility of firing lots of teachers.

Two years ago, we got a new superintendent and we went to a 4 day school week. The past two years have been amazing.

For one, the district didn't have to lay off anyone. We have saved over $100,000 per year. Our enrollment has increased so much we now have 4 teachers per grade. We have been able to purchase many new things, including Ipads, books, and desks.

Most importantly, our test scores and graduation rates have been increasing. We have gotten awards the last two years for improved test scores. We are well on our way to the top ten schools in the state.

I don't know if it is because of the 4 day week, or our new superintendent who is managing the money so well, but something is definitely working!

Originally posted by tport17
I'll make one more post to address school spending.

I want to share some things about my school, because we really have had a great improvement in our money situation. I work in a very small rural district. Three years ago each grade had 3 teachers in the elementary and each class had about 15-20 students. Very small. However, the school was facing a financial problem and they were looking at the possibility of firing lots of teachers.

Two years ago, we got a new superintendent and we went to a 4 day school week. The past two years have been amazing.

For one, the district didn't have to lay off anyone. We have saved over $100,000 per year. Our enrollment has increased so much we now have 4 teachers per grade. We have been able to purchase many new things, including Ipads, books, and desks.

Most importantly, our test scores and graduation rates have been increasing. We have gotten awards the last two years for improved test scores. We are well on our way to the top ten schools in the state.

I don't know if it is because of the 4 day week, or our new superintendent who is managing the money so well, but something is definitely working!

That's very interseting because there was news of one school eliminating homework, instantly improving the average grade. I believe making days shorter, and doing the homework with the students instead of them taking it home, would give greater opportunity to apply those teachings in practice.

A few concepts that have emerged are successfull, so making a 4 day week sounds too simple, but it has greater effects and benefits for the teachers and students then most people can imagine.

54 Serious Reasons Why You Should Homeschool

" A man's judgement is only as good as his information"
Dr. Stuart Crane

www.relfe.com...

If teh parents do not rate educational achievementn as opposed to social climbing then why should the kids?

This is why many so called third world countries have higher maths and literacy scores than the West and also have been suffering braindrains since the fifties.

People need to wake up! Educational underachievement becomes national economic underachievement as scientific innovation shifts to the "emerging" nations like india and china>