To those that think gay marriage is wrong...Moving video

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
I do not support gay marriage but before you all start bashing me for it let me explain.

I live in the UK and we have what we call “civil partnerships” this is basically a law that permits homosexuals to enter into a legally binding committed relationship that grants them all of the same rights as heterosexual “married couples”.

Marriage is a religious ceremony, it always has been, many religions hold a dated position that “homosexuality is wrong”. Now I disagree with this statement however that is what their religion dictates and as such it would be just as wrong of us to diminish the rights of homosexuals as it would be to say Catholics.

I think we have a perfect balance in the UK just now, yes homosexual couples can have all the same rights as heterosexual couples but at the same time we recognise the tradition of religious faiths whose traditions do not accommodate homosexual marriage. It is just as wrong to force religious institutions into changing their traditions as it is to deny a homosexual couple the same rights as a heterosexual couple.

It may seem like semantics but to many the difference between a “civil partnership” and a “marriage” is really quite significant.

So long as the rights of both groups and maintained I have no problem with homosexuals being granted the same rights as heterosexual couples. I think that this should be universal but the respect for the religious sacrament of marriage should also be universal.

But it is "not good enough" according to the homosexual lobby. That is why it is now going to the parliament in an attempt to redefine marriage in law - removing man and woman from the very definition. Among this same movement, our institutions are removing the terms "husband, wife, mother and father" from documents and substituting asexual terms of spouse and parent. This entire movement stems from androgyny and it's reverence in the occult movement. ANYONE can research this. Their manifestos and religious writings await the day mankind is evolved into an androgynous state. This is so easily proven by anyone with just a little reading. So what this lays out is the truth of the matter - there is a spiritual battle going on in high places to redefine and change creation as it was created. And yet, what I see by the very arguments used by the populace is sheer ignorance of the real battle here. This is couched in terms of "love" and "tolerance" and yet, it has everything to do with the occult religions hatred and seething towards it's Creator and His ordered world and this focuses on the destruction of that Creation. Destruction of plants and food by genetic manipulation, the rise of Monsanto and it's fast growing monopoly over seeds and such, the movement of genetics in humans and animals stc. This is not a battle against flesh and blood but a battle against wickedness in high places - and those in the high places detest your Creator and you yourself is a reminder of Him. Guess what that means for you? Love? Hardly. Your plotted destruction. Try understanding how you and I could be not found in His Book of Life, when it's the Word which created us?

Forgive me for this one, it's 4 in the morning, my head hurts, I'm crabby and I've had enough. This is not my ususal nice guy post.

There is no logical argument for "gay" marriage. (And I'll hate the homosexual movement forever for destroying that perfectly good word, not to mention trashing the happy beauty of the rainbow. If you want to know how it hurts me, there's a start.)

The arguments are not logical, they are all emotional. "I want, I want." "I don't care that I'll upset the Mother, the Father, his brothers and sisters, I want to be welcomed and accepted at the funeral." "I want the financial benefits that come from mariage." "I want people to accept my abnormal behavior as perfectly normal and praiseworthy." Sadly, that's all there is. Sadder still, is that this has been dressed up to look like Civil Rights, which the real Civil Rights leaders have rejected itas insulting. Saddest of all is the claim that it doesn't affect anyone else.

First, homosexual marriage proponents don't care if it hurts anyone else, in fact they look for ways to make it hurt other people. I'm sure you've heard of the same sex couple who asked for a wedding cake. The baker said, "Sorry, that's against my beliefs." Did the couple go to another baker? Of course not, that would have been respectful of another's beliefs. They sued. A week later, same stunt, one more suit.

Shall we raise our children as we please? Of course not, elementary school children are being taught that two daddies are just as fine as any other combination. You must accept the homosexual beliefs or you're engaging in discrimination. If it's in your business life, you can easily lose your business over it.

They also don't care about children. The major study looking at what the effect is on children raised in same sex households, show that at age 18 + they are much worse off than those from different sex households. But it's "I want children, I want, I want."

Next? Salon magazine has already published an article demanding that polygamous relationships be the next goal. The Psychiatric Association which removed Homosexuality from it's list of disorders back in the '70s (I believe) due to pressure, not science, now has an active group calling for the same treatment for pedophilia.

Whatever you may hear. The homosexual movement has one true goal. "I want to have all the sex I want, anyway I want it. And I want society's benefits, approvals, and protection. And I want the state to hurt those naughty people who don't agree with me."

Originally posted by charles1952
Whatever you may hear. The homosexual movement has one true goal. "I want to have all the sex I want, anyway I want it. And I want society's benefits, approvals, and protection. And I want the state to hurt those naughty people who don't agree with me."

Thank you but I will have all the sex I want, any way I want it (with my partner in my monogamous relationship because thats what we believe in) regardless of what happens with gay marriage. Jealous much? So you should be.

Oh, and I want society's benefits and protection because I pay tax like everyone else. Otherwise, I want to pay less tax.

Approval? meh...I don't care either way if people approve of my sexuality because I don't care about the opinions of people who are not important to me.

reply to post by Metallicus

Originally posted by Metallicus
Homosexuality is a tough subject for me. On the one hand I want my fellow human beings treated with respect and dignity. I also want them to have the same legal rights that I have. On the other hand I have a very real repulsion to the idea of two men lying together in a sexual way. This isn't about religion it is about the idea of homosexuality simply being gross to me. I can't be more honest than I have just been.

So, I am logically willing and able to grant the legal rights to homosexuals to marry, but at the same time it isn't going to change the fact that I have a visceral and real negative reaction to the homosexual act. Is that fair?

edit on 2013/5/14 by Metallicus because: Grammar

I don't understand why every time people talk about gay people, other people always think about something sexual but when people talk about straight people, they understand that it is love and care something more than sexual.

Yes, it is fair. The emotions and personal opinions doesn't matter, as long as all are treated with equal rights. If a man and woman is able to be married, then a man and man or a woman and woman should also be allowed to married, otherwise it is just discrimination and sexism, in a way.

Originally posted by 200Plus

I was a soldier and I tend to put everything into that context. Let me explain how the abuse happens:

Single soldiers are required to live in the barracks (we all hate it too). Two soldiers (hetero) decide that if they get married to each other they can live off base. They go down and get married and immediately file for legal separation. Now as they are both married and separated they both get housing and food allowances (their pay goes from $2400 a month each to $3500 a month each). This does not seem significant until you realize that a typical barracks houses around 200 soldiers with 15-40 or more barracks per military base. A majority of them will play this game I assure you. This will more than double the budget requests from the military.

Add onto this the civilian population that will do this for insurance policies, state/federal aid, social security, etc. the potential for abuse is staggering.

This is no more of a problem than illegal immigrants marrying a citizen just to get legal residential status. It's not a huge problem, but it happens. And we have procedures in place to try and minimize it. Procedures could be put in place for the issue you raise. We can't just ban all heterosexual marriage because some illegal immigrants take advantage of it -- we shouldn't ban all gay marriage because some heteros try to take advantage of it. That's punishing the gay population for something that is not their fault.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


What about religious faiths who have no problem with homosexuals getting married? You are discriminating against those religious faiths. Besides, the U.S. government is not supposed to favor one religion over another - it is supposed to be secular. By only handing out marriage licenses to certain religious people, you are discriminating against everyone else. What's to stop them from not granting marriage licenses to Jews, or to atheists or Satanists, or wiccans or pagans?

There are many Christians who have absolutely no problem with gay marriage licenses, or with gays using the term "marriage". What about their opinion? Shouldn't the government take that into account as well?

While I will not watch the video because I feel all things American are overly a bipolar manic-depressive mix of emo vs legal/political correctness.

I'd agree many people against gay marriage are overly religious and self-righteous, both very American qualities. As we can see even from America's foreign relations, it's a regime of anything but live-and-let-live, or to each, his/her own. It's about deciding and prescribing what is right for everyone, what rights they have (and no longer have).

For millennia queer folk have had these rights to couple, marry, however unnoficial, yet tolerated by some clans, tribes. Then came the Abrahamic religions which purported that sex/intimate relations were for procreation, that even just 'spilling the seed' is sin, and marriage is for... breeding.

Religion aside, I don't see how an ethical society would use moral against gay marriage, either. For the only other alternative would be to unethically force gays (10% of the population) into living a lie. And that's what I have witnessed over the years, and I'd say even more than 1 in 10 men I've known are hetero married, yet living a 'double' life, well you know what I mean.

reply to post by charles1952


Thank you for putting my own thoughts into words. I could not have said it better. You sir, have my respect.

reply to post by Hopechest

Originally posted by Hopechest
I find it funny how those that support gay marriage insist on having their views accepted yet they do not extend that same curtesy to those that may not like it.

No one is "insisting" their views be accepted. They're insisting that all people have equal legal rights. I (as an ally) don't really care if you "accept" it or not.

reply to post by charles1952


I am going to assume your purely emotive rant was induced by lack of caffeine.

Sure there are some people in any walk of life that look to take advantage of anything and everything. Your wedding cake story while deplorable, is no worse than the insurance scammers who keep neck braces in their car in the hopes someone might nudge into the back of them so they can sue for injuries that were never caused.

The whole laughable thing about gay marriage is that a lot of the people that you are all trying to stop from having these rights are already living together in committed relationships. They are not coming to recruit new homosexuals, they are just asking for equality in the eyes of the law

My home country of NZ has just passed gay marriage into law. Ask any person on the street if it has suddenly made their lives any different and most of them will say, not one bit. People are still going to feel the way they do for or against gay people, just as they do on other contentious issues like immigration and unemployment. The Government cannot make anyone change their personal view on any given subject, but it can offer fairness and equality to all of it's citizens like it ought to.

reply to post by charles1952

Originally posted by charles1952
There is no logical argument for "gay" marriage.

Equal treatment under the law.

"I want people to accept my abnormal behavior as perfectly normal and praiseworthy."

A. There's nothing wrong with wanting something.
B. I have NEVER heard a gay person express the sentiment above. Most don't care how you feel about it.

First, homosexual marriage proponents don't care if it hurts anyone else,

You're right. I don't care if your feelings are hurt. Equal treatment under the law doesn't hurt anyone. If people are "hurt" by their inability to discriminate, that's just tough cookies.

Shall we raise our children as we please? Of course not, elementary school children are being taught that two daddies are just as fine as any other combination.

If you don't want your children to learn about equality, then don't send them to public school. Your choice.

You must accept the homosexual beliefs or you're engaging in discrimination. If it's in your business life, you can easily lose your business over it.

You don't have to personally accept it. But if you're going to have a business here in the US, you cannot discriminate in your business practices.

The major study looking at what the effect is on children raised in same sex households, show that at age 18 + they are much worse off than those from different sex households.

Link?

Next? Salon magazine has already published an article demanding that polygamous relationships be the next goal.

Polygamous marriage would have the same affect on you as gay marriage. Zero.

The Psychiatric Association which removed Homosexuality from it's list of disorders back in the '70s (I believe) due to pressure, not science, now has an active group calling for the same treatment for pedophilia.

That's just scare-tactics. People have been calling for this for years. That doesn't mean it's going to happen or that our society will ever allow non-consensual relationships. And minors cannot consent to legal contracts.

Whatever you may hear. The homosexual movement has one true goal.

I don't think you can speak for the homosexual community or their goals.

To those that think gay marriage is wrong...

First, I don't think gay marriage is wrong... just that marriages of any kind are not a constitutional right. Leave it to the states to decide and the outcome will be some that do and some that don't and from there... all the fussbudgeting will cease.

But more than anything else, the whole whackydoo on this subject is just silly. This goes for anyone of any gender and/or orientation because if you really need a title-deed on your partner/mate, then what you may need more than anything is just some basic love and devotion.

People get married all the time and from those, many end up getting divorced. Now, no one gets married with the intention of eventually getting unhitched but... over the last 50-or-so years, we, as a species, have lost our abilities to adjust to things that rub us the wrong way. Instead of working them out to save what we had, we tend to simply walk away.

Not surprisingly, one group that openly and even happily supports gay marriage, are divorce lawyers.

No matter who you are, if you are lucky enough to find that rarest of all human commodities; true love, then the chains of matrimony really would (or should) come in a very distant second, at best.

reply to post by thePharaoh

Originally posted by thePharaoh
marriage is a religous requirement...are gays religious??????????????

A. Marriage may be a "religious requirement" for some, but for others, religion has nothing to do with it. Atheists marry. No religion involved. And yes, some gay people are religious.

i just think there isnt that many gays wanting a marriage...i think its exaggerated
i think its more about destroying culture

You are entitled to your opinions, no matter how incorrect they are.

you want to stand in a church??? than start your own

Actually, many gay-friendly churches already exist.

reply to post by 200Plus

Okay, so money and the potential to scam it is an interesting point. Let's look at the numbers though. The generally accepted percentage of gay people in population is about 10% The actual number is always being debated and is usually manipulated toward the pretense of anti gay sentiment.
Whatever the actual number is, it is just a minority. So, if we go down the path of statistics and we use your military example as a basis this is what we get;
Say your base has 2500 personnel on it, 250 of them would be gay. 2250 of them straight. I am unsure what the actual % of married people on a base would be, but we will go for 50% for argument's sake. So, 1125 of those straight people would be married vs 125 gay ones assuming that marriage is now recognised and the same amount of gay people choose to marry as straight ones. There is no data on this to work from so it is a speculative number.
So, to the scam you speak of. Let's assume it's really bad and 50% of all couples do it just for the money as you suggest. So, approx 658 of those straight couples vs approx 63 gay ones are ripping off the system.

So, as the above math shows, yes gay people would make a small difference, but it is nowhere near the potential that straight world does. Even if every single gay person on the base tried it on, that would only make 250 vs the 658 dishonest straight people using the assumption of a really bad scam.

The numbers and percentages in the example above are all ficitious, bar the 10% thing. Basically my point is that 10% of the general population are not going to bring the world down.

reply to post by Hopechest

Originally posted by Hopechest
I am against many in the gay community who are hypocritical in their views and I believe I've addressed that in some detail in this thread.

Are you equally against those in the straight community who are hypocritical in their views?

Every group of people, whether it be men, women, black, white, teachers, cops, bankers or ATS members, are hypocritical in their views. Why single out those in the gay community, as if they possess some special form of hypocrisy?

Having paid attention to the gay marriage debate, and ultimately all of the arguments that are brought up, the following can be stated:

The issue is and has been gay marriage, nothing more, nothing less. It is a point of equality and treating people with the same respect and dignity as those who are straight couples. Arguments that are often insulting to common sense are not the issue. Many people would like to state that allowing gay marriage would mean that we would have to allow poly marriages, or pedo, or beastality, fail to take into account the laws and court cases that have come around.

Many of the other issues, the let multiple people marry for example, has already been discussed, it has been discussed, debated on, been through the courts and a decision was rendered, that it was not acceptable.

Many would state points that are easily dismissed, such as about having children and procreating, yet fail to explain how then is a marriage valid if neither spouse wants a child and produce none, or is past the age of child bearing or sterile.

While civil unions would be fine, if they were equal under the laws of the country. But what many fail to see, is that they fall short in many cases. They do not offer the same protections or rights as a traditional marriage would, nor at the time did any one stop and look, and think, about adding such into the text of the law where it could be tested in the courts, and ultimately prove that it was equal. Every time it looks to show that it may have such, something comes up where it is shown that a civil union is unequal to an actual marriage, that is recognized in all 50 states. That is at the heart of the matter.

Many of the arguments that are used in this issue and debate were used time and time before to justify keeping one group seperate from the rest of the country. They are used over and over, when social changes take effect, and then masses, who find such an affront to both the idea and being forced to change bulk at the very idea and resist.

The question now must be asked, do you believe in the rule of law and the idea that all are equal? If so, then the same rights and privledges that one group has, must be provided to another group. You would ask that gay people live quiet lives, that they follow the laws, pay taxes, do everything else that a citizen would do, then why not afford them the same luxury and privledge under the law as say a straight person does. If it means that they want to get married, let them. The only real way to show that it will fail and is a bad idea is to allow it in the first place.

If you look at history, did not the lesson of prohibition show that? After all they went through got it passed, that it was against the law to sell, distribute and drink alcohol, then when it was obvious that it had failed, they had it removed. Set up a few states, let them go through and have gay marriage, use it is a blue print for the rest of the country, that way it limits the damage of such, and ultimately allows for the rest to see the good and the bad.

reply to post by Hopechest

Originally posted by Hopechest
I guess at the end of the day marriage comes down to a religious ceremony so therefore gays should not partake.

Marriage is a LEGAL contract offered by the STATE. If you want to tack on a religious aspect, you can, but it's definitely not necessary nor should to be assumed. My marriage had nothing to do with religion and no religious words were spoken. Yet, I am legally married.

You are entitled to your belief that gays cannot be religious, but you would be incorrect.

As for legal rights, of course give them the same and let them develop their own, even better, ceremonies.

That's the idea behind the marriage equality movement. Good to see that you agree.

reply to post by 200Plus

Originally posted by 200Plus
Show me a valid reason (non-emotional) that the law should change. I am not saying I cannot be taught if my opinion is in error.

14th Amendment

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

It's simple. All citizens of a state must have equal protection of the law. States offer secular marriage contracts to consenting adults. Unless they're gay, that is. Gay marriage being illegal directly violates the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution.

Originally posted by Hopechest
I find it funny how those that support gay marriage insist on having their views accepted yet they do not extend that same curtesy to those that may not like it.

- I support marriage equality (gay marriage) and that people can work for it.
- I support that people have a right to not accept it and work against it.

This is America.
People can think gay marriage is against their religion all they want.
It's their right to believe that.
Likewise, people can work for marriage equality.
It's their right to do so.

If you don't approve of gay marriage, then don't marry someone of
the same gender.

If you don't like that some people's religious beliefs go counter
to marriage equality .. then tune them out.

Live and let live.

reply to post by 200Plus

Originally posted by 200Plus
what about cousins? relatives? Is that peoples business or are we going to judge them.

I am not comparing incest to homosexuality (at least I am not meaning it that way). I just want to know where the freedom and right to marry extends.

That's up to each state. Marriage is a state-by-state issue. But if the state recognizes it, then the federal government does, too, and extends over 1000 benefits and privileges to married couples. Except for gay couples. The federal government discriminates against gay married couples.

ETA - the point is the homosexual movement is not about equality as much as it is about acceptance.

Actually, it's about equal treatment under the law. They don't really care if you accept it or not.