Do we love war?

what i want to know is ... if america can have nuclear weapons, why can't other countries ... what happened to disarmament?

www.commondreams.org...


... nothing more dangerous than a caveman with amazing destructive technology .....


I love romance too.... but there is nothing romantic about war. Love definitely feels better than hate. Give me blue skies - I don't want a nuclear winter, but that's exactly where we're heading ...

Originally posted by Kidfinger
There seems to be a growing opinion that war is good

You are correct, but ask yourself who is it good for? That is something that everyone should ask themselves before they subscribe to herd mentality.

I know that there are times when war for the US is necasary, such as the bombing of Pearl Harbor, and this fact I can accept. What I cant accept is the fact that we are resulting to preemptivly stirking these "rogue" nations that are deemed a threat. Why are we attacking a nation that has not invaded us? If a country is no threat to us, has not threatened us, or has not attacked us, I see no reason to invade them.

War is a dirty, dirty business. The reality of war is not glamoris, nor is it romantic. The humanity is not involved in war anymore. Without the humanity in war, many innocent life is lost. We no longer see the mass carnage that is wrecked by our latest killing devices. Why should we when we can target them with a laser four miles away in complete saftey. Our attempt to make war safer for our troops has resulted in war becoming bland and a little palitable. Its easier for us to hear about the goals of war than to watch the truth of war.

It is this fact which I believe that alot of people ascribe to now. War is no longer a violent affair that keeps people repulsed. Instead, it has been turned into the highest rated reality show on TV. Great, another Big Brother, I just cant wait The fact is, there is no good for war unless your talking of capitolistic gains.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
I have noticed a growing divide here on ATS. It is starting to get even worse amoung the American members. There seems to be a growing opinion that war is good and makes you feel youthful and alive. Im not sure whats going on with the mentality of the US right now, but I know one thing is for sure, if we dont solve our differences now, S**t is going to hit the fan here in our homeland soon. So I want to know, What is it that turns people on to this war? Why do so many people approve of it? These questions go both ways also. If you dont agree with the warmongering, then why? If you dont approve of the war tell me why. One last thing. I am strictly talking about the war in Iraq.

Just so there is no slamming me for being below 18 for this post, you should know something about me. Im not 18, and I was in the first Gulf War. Im not just a young kid with an impressionable mind, I do have experience with the questions Im asking.

[edit on 11/5/04 by Kidfinger]

[edit on 11/5/04 by Kidfinger]

WAR is not good for anything o.k...I'm a total Pro-Peace and I love everybody even those who think war is good, because they r human too!
O.k...war is GOOD for (OIL, WEAPONS MARKET, POWER, CONTROL OF POPULATION) yeah....if u r rich, if u wanna be richer, if u have HATE in your heart, then LOVE WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IN canada, we HATE war, we NEVER GO TO WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So come on.....gimme a damn break with your war debate! Those who r for war are people who are desprates of life or greedy

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
PEACE AND LOVE

Amelia,

I agree with you. I dont think war is the answer we should be seeking right now. I am trying to find out why so many peopole are for it right now.

Okay, i know this is drifting away from the point of kids thread but I'm following the drift.

Why is the US now getting (REALLY) uptight with Nuke proliferation.

Because in the past it was seen as a "club" of nation states that had the common sense (by a certain definition of course:@@ to have them but not use them.....MAD theory.

Since the 1980s and 90s you have now had other states trying to develop them, mostly for the same reasons. Deterence on the MAD principle. Unfortunately youve had some of the leadership in one or two places use rhetoric to suggest they want to use them (I might be quoting out of context here, Saddam wanting WMD to "Burn the State of Israel to the Ground").

Even some of those states only want them for deterence, but thier security protocals are laughable, key officials are totally corrupt, and some are even possibly sympathetic to groups listed in the WoT.

So you introduce into the stew now groups whose hard core leadership and veterans are familiar with and embrace concepts such as martyrdom and suicide bombing and civil terror.

The thought of the consequences of such a group coming in control of a nuclear device, even indirectly must horrify most sane people.

Thats the problem, That's the cause of the change in attitude and approach from the established members of the "club"

Risk unacceptable when parties who do not subscribe to the deterence/MAD theory decide they want in.

IMPHO anyway

Sorry Kid. Back on track right?

"Dulce bellum inexpertis (War is delightful to the inexperienced)."
Erasmus, the 16th-century scholar.

Fighting for peace is like boinking for vaginity.

I love the Idea of freedom but there is very little left free in the world
It is purely an ideal that is fading fast. I have seen it in Australian Aboriginals where they have no dependancies but live in harmony with the land. Their history is hard to trace as they dont leave a trail of destruction behind them.

Has anyone considered that if all nations dissarmed the world would be in Kaos
The American war machine, The worlds super power employs millions. The industries needed to build and update it supports whole cities. To disarm it would collapse the American economy and subsequently the world economy, Is this a good enough reason to keep it together.

Bombardment of Afghanistan was probably responsible for the Earthquake that destroyed the Ancient Iranian citadel of Bam

Leading by example is a powerful statement
All nations of the world please dissarm

Originally posted by Dan West
Fighting for peace is like boinking for vaginity.

Thats classic I think Im gonna have to steal that one

Originally posted by Kidfinger

Originally posted by Dan West
Fighting for peace is like boinking for vaginity.

Thats classic

I think Im gonna have to steal that one

Hehehe
But personnaly, I'm a lover not a hater, I think that if economy of USA and all other nation collapse, I'll be an happy woman...
We need to get back to our real values, Love and harmony and certainly no discrimination!
I'm sick of money......It'S the cause of everybody problems
So everybody is poor in this world, maybe that will be the time to start brand new!!!!! I wanna start brand new...I'm sick of society as it is, it's getting too much about materialism

WORK, SPEND, WORK, SPEND....that is a free country! U r totally free my friends! Freedom is not in a capitalism society, it's worst because u don't even REALISE that u r not free

Think about it

Love
Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Originally posted by Amelia

We need to get back to our real values, Love and harmony and certainly no discrimination!
I'm sick of money......It'S the cause of everybody problems
So everybody is poor in this world, maybe that will be the time to start brand new!!!!! I wanna start brand new...I'm sick of society as it is, it's getting too much about materialism

Well put Amelia I believe if we could find a way to completly change our economic system, we would start to see a change in people. It would level the playing field between the rich and the poor. The rich could no longer hide behind the dollar and make the kind of changes to the nation they have made, without telling anyone. Maybe peoples opinions would finally be judged by thier actions and not thier bank account.

When I was a kid I remember watching the Viet Nam body counts on the news every night & I would go to bed and pray that the war would be over before I could be drafted.

No we don't love war, but there some who do. Ever notice the media always telling us how much money were spending on the war and how much future hardship that will cause. One thing they rarely mention are those who profit from war. The CEO's & major shareholders love war. I guess we can thank the democrats for telling us about Halliburton, but I'm sure there's many others.

Yes, from our perspective it's exciting almost like a video game or an action movie, but as has been mentioned it's probably not too exciting having people die all around you.

Originally posted by outsider
When I was a kid I remember watching the Viet Nam body counts on the news every night & I would go to bed and pray that the war would be over before I could be drafted.

No we don't love war, but there some who do. Ever notice the media always telling us how much money were spending on the war and how much future hardship that will cause. One thing they rarely mention are those who profit from war. The CEO's & major shareholders love war. I guess we can thank the democrats for telling us about Halliburton, but I'm sure there's many others.

Yes, from our perspective it's exciting almost like a video game or an action movie, but as has been mentioned it's probably not too exciting having people die all around you.

I know...when I watch the news and I see babies killed and mothers crying I cry too!!!! And some people say (YES!!!! less Irakis on the globe...oil, money here they come youppi!) That is SOOOOO Hitler in 1930 with the jews non? That's totally unhuman to enjoy humans being killed
Soliders in Irak or Viet-Nam or America have a family too, they are not just iraki soliders, they r HUMANS with emotions

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Originally posted by c_au
what i want to know is ... if america can have nuclear weapons, why can't other countries ... what happened to disarmament?

This is simple NPT in which it states only 5 countries can have or develop nuclear weapons. US, Russia , China, UK and France. Thats it nobody eles.

Under Article II each non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty undertakes not to receive the transfer from any transferor whatsoever of nuclear weapons nor try to develop them.

And under Article X
Each Party shall in exercising its national sovereignty have the right to withdraw from the Treaty if it decides that extraordinary events, related to the subject matter of this Treaty, have jeopardized the supreme interests of its country.

Nobody is forced to sign it as some countries didnt (examples -Cuba,Israel) and you can get out of it.

Nobody is forced to sign it as some countries didnt (examples -Cuba,Israel) and you can get out of it.

So you're basicly saying that by international law, there is no law that says a country is not allowed to develop WMD?

Originally posted by ShadowXIX


This is simple NPT in which it states only 5 countries can have or develop nuclear weapons. US, Russia , China, UK and France. Thats it nobody eles.

But why Bush wants to get Irak weapons and he says it's dangerous if he has the same kind of weapons??????????????? That is not bright! No one should have weapons

Originally posted by Kidfinger

Nobody is forced to sign it as some countries didnt (examples -Cuba,Israel) and you can get out of it.

So you're basicly saying that by international law, there is no law that says a country is not allowed to develop WMD?

There is a "law" or "international treaty" only if you signed the NPT. Say if you are Cuba or Israel or a few others this does not effect you as you are a non signing party.

Most countries signed this though N Korea and Iran both signed it as a matter of fact.

About withdrawing you cant just start making nukes in secret. You have to "give notice of such withdrawal to all other Parties to the Treaty and to the United Nations Security Council three months in advance. Such notice shall include a statement of the extraordinary events it regards as having jeopardized its supreme interests."


[edit on 6-11-2004 by ShadowXIX]

[edit on 6-11-2004 by ShadowXIX]

Thanks for the info on international laws on nuclear weapons

.... I'm still confused ... so why is it ok for ANY country to make nuclear weapons? And why would you have them and not use them?


"Has anyone considered that if all nations dissarmed the world would be in Kaos
The American war machine, The worlds super power employs millions."

... surely all that money and intelligence could figure out alternative ways to keep the machine going. How about the American (and any other countries who want to join) PEACE machine. All that budget, brains and brawn could be focused on solving very urgent problems instead .... heaps of work needed in the environmental area - alternative energy use, climate, humanities, etc etc etc ... loads of employment opportunites there, I'm sure it could be very profitable (ie. create abundance physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually Amelia )




[edit on 6-11-2004 by c_au]

Maybe the question we should be asking is why every country really feels they need WMD to be safe.?

Good question Kidfinger.

my view ...

Because 'powerful' nations have them, the smaller, less powerful nations are terrified - especially those nations which have what they know the powerful nations want. It is an attempt to balance out the power. The more WMD are made by any nation, the more will be made by other nations.

The 'powerful' nations have WMD to show themselves to be supreme and powerful nations - they want to be bigger and better than the rest, and to be seen that way ... better still, to be the biggest and the best.

Why do they need to be seen to be the biggest and the best ? .. its a dependency on external glorification - they need to be glorified by others, because deep down they do not glorify themselves. But glory comes from within ... its a human condition to thrive to be better, but the objective is skewed ... the challenge is to better the self, not be better than another - that's elitest.