Okay, so the SHTF, and the Raiders come, so now what?

Put up a sign on the front lawn " trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again!"

Hunker down, make sure my amo is set up in the appropriate places through out the house and stand my ground no matter what!

Besides, even if TSHTF...What makes my house a tqarget from any other house....And...Much safer being inside than walking around where there are a bunch of crazy and unstable people.

Originally posted by Gazrok
reply to post by blkcwbyhat

 

Nice application of the technique!

Leave it out for the raiders to find before they even get to you...nice...

Of course, this is pretty indiscriminate. You never know who you'll get with this tactic.

To another...

As for movies, well, this is all hypothetical. But, no matter what the SHTF scenario....groups of raiders are going to be a given. Would you disagree?

No. Not at all-

My point wasnt that this isnt a valid topic- if society collapsed there is an armed and organized street gang in nearly every city which have numbers, weapons and ammo and a structure and method already in place. You also have Police depts which would no doubt (in some cases) go rogue and have access to some impressive toys. In the rural areas we already have thousands of organized Militias who regularly plan and train for this "collapse"... National Guard units could very well "flip" with full access of the Armories and again, a command structure already in place.

-There would be chaos as many fiefdoms and "kingdoms" formed and fought for resources and anything of strategic value including slaves, soldiers and women.

-I was not at all making jest on the premise. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Pop some Jet.

Grab a couple Stimpaks

And load my Gauss Rifle...

...What?...

...You said Raiders, far be it from me to think you were talking about Fallout.

When I was much younger (early 20's), I thought then I would be smart of me to learn a trade, something that would make me valuable to the Gangs if the SHTF. A plumber or electrition where my talents would be of use if and when society caved in. Well, I didn't follow my plan instead I'm more of a paper pusher (retired air traffic controller). A trade that probably wouldn't have much use in a society which has broken down. If we find ourselves fighting and scrounging for food, I don't think this is a world I'd care to live in and would most likely choose to "check out" and take my chances on the other side. Kind of a cop out, but if mankind falls into a "kill or be killed" mentality, that's not for me. I have a weapon but what good it will do? I see it as a tool I can use to "transition", not defend myself against a gang of maniacs intent of stealing, raping, my loved ones.

I like Gazrok's ideas on this, after all we pay taxes now don't we?.....Well don't we?????
(what? taxes? oh yeah taxes, yeah yeah we pay our taxes)

So since I know how to make wine and spirits, I will give them liquor as protection money..... and then after a few months when they are used to it and trust me, I will accidently make a bad batch of liquor, and send them all blind. Cant shoot you if they cant see you

reply to post by blkcwbyhat


Blkcwbyhat - you are worthy, I'm sure.

Poison gardens are a thing. Years ago I saw one with headstones identifying each plant and what it would do to you. I've only invested in a few truly poisonous and easily used plants. They're very pretty landscaping pieces and if I ever need to.... just in case.... I have the ability to severely deter some people.

reply to post by Halekoch

Thank you! My mommy always said I was special,even rode the short bus to school! Seriously,I do like the idea of non lethal methods of incapacitating the bad guys.Nobody will be in much of a fighting mood with an upset stomach or diarrhea.And you have a degree of innocence,as you never know how they got it,or claim to.Bad food,disease,bad water...Then maybe barter them some placebo medicine to cure them and gain some trust? Personally,I still prefer to avoid contact,but this would be an easy and cheap method.

Being raised in the country and living in the city has taught me much about people in general. I agree with your 1st throughs, i.e cooperation or death.

You can plan and you can run and you can run and well, you get the idea. At some point you are going to come in contact with other people and unless there's more of you then them which is doubtful, co-operation and bargaining is your only choice.

Is this situation from the little i know, your best option is to make yourself known and quickly. If you don't, when you are found your going to get killed as the other party will kill you out of fear. If however you make yourself loud and known, you've got better odds. Either way your either going to be killed there and then or stand a chance of being able to reason.

As society and history have taught us. Those who are few and segregate themselves will perish as there resources will run out. It only takes one bad crop or hunting season. The only other example are rainforest tribes. But let's face it, no matter how much you know, you're never going to know as much about survival as they do to be able to live like they do.

**on the other hand**

I suppose you also have to judge the situation. If it's blatantly obvious there looking for blood and rape then your best option is to try and avoid detection. Difficult if you've set up camp.

Originally posted by Halekoch
reply to post by blkcwbyhat

 

Blkcwbyhat - you are worthy, I'm sure.

Poison gardens are a thing. Years ago I saw one with headstones identifying each plant and what it would do to you. I've only invested in a few truly poisonous and easily used plants. They're very pretty landscaping pieces and if I ever need to.... just in case.... I have the ability to severely deter some people.

I just saw your post on that and realized mine was similar, sorry. But I think that there are ways of defending yourself if you are patient enough. Someone who comes asking for help, is willing to work or help out, needs help getting on their feet again after the SHTF, I can understand that. Eventually they will be able to make it on their own.

But people who decide they are going to take advantage of the breakdown of law and order and just raid for a living, they are lazy and short sighted and will sooner or later slip up.

reply to post by Nuke2013


put up a big sign that says "I have lots of ammo,and probably food!". That would make your house look like its not worth a raid.....Just because you have a burnt out car in the yard and plywood over the windows to make it look abandoned,its still better shelter to a raider than a tent.Maybe wrap some quarintine tape around it.A looter will go anywhere to find anything they may need,a piece of pipe to make a zip gun,a blanket you didn't take,drain your water heater,anything.Just because your house looks like the next one,they will look.

I've really only seen 2 main options so far in this topic.One is to go full Rambo on the bad guys,the other is to dig in deep like a tick on a sheep! Let's explore option 1,full rambo.Now,if you are lucky enough to have a concrete bunker called beverly hills,(Apocalypse Now reference for the kids),you are probably safe and secure from most guns they may use against you.Tanks and helicopters don't care,but lets skip those.If you can shoot out,they can shoot in tho.A home made flamethrower can take out a bunker,as can an ied.If it were a true grid down SHTF,those sources would be too valuable to waste on a hardened bunker,imho.If your in a typical suburban home,the roof is the weakest point.A malatov cocktail,a flaming arrow,you'll be forced out.Maybe something like a home made tear gas.
Lets assume that if we're in a firefight,someone will get shot(duh).I'm going to make up a few numbers,so bear with me please.10 raiders show up at your bunker.There are 5 in the bunker.Lets assume 20% casualty/injured/incapacitated some how.They lose 2,you lose 1.They come back the next day,lose 2,you 1..How long will it last? Pretty much a stalemate till someone runs out of ammo........

reply to post by wrkn4livn


Lincoln once said,"there is good and evil in every man's heart,and good do's not always win.Sometimes the dark side overcomes the better angles of our vision." Being a paper pusher would not make you any less of a member of a group than me being a machinist would make me better.Granted,if we're building a log cabin,maybe my math and engineering would be a bonus,but once it's built,my skills are no longer needed,until they are! Every person can contribute to a group regardless of skills,even if its manual labor.All the big survival sites tout the rice,beans and wheat stuff.Try hand grinding wheat for a loaf of bread! It takes an hour!Then you need wood for the stove,or fire.Go gather water.So many of these guys think they are going to pitch a tent in the woods and spend all day in trenches reliving the vietnam war,without giving a thought to the mundane chores.They'd rather buy another AR15 than a hand cranked washing machine or a solar oven.

So, what happened in Somalia 20 years ago? There was no law and order, no government. The warlords took over, they started running things. In fact these primitive tribal organizations were good enough to kick the US military's arse hard enough to send them home. We see this in today's world, the mafia and gangs. These are the guys who are going to win the wars between the bad guys that will immediately follow any breakdown in law and order. They are the warlords of the future.

What can we learn from them? I haven't done a deep research but maybe I will yet.

I am assuming that although these guys were all living in Mogadishu they hadn't forgotten which tribe they were from and there would have been a lot of gangs organized along the lines of tribal affiliations. Blood is thicker than water.

What does that mean for us? We don't live in a tribal society anymore even if in some parts families are still strong. But for us who aren't in this position because of the constant relocating that has become all the rage in Western countries, I think part of the prepping is to get organized in to communities, whether the community is actually living all next to each other or within a larger community. A community founded on common beliefs and values is going to withstand tests and trials more than one that isn't. So find or found such a community with people you trust. Make it official, enter a contract with the other people that lists the ways you will help each other in case of situation X. A contract on paper might not mean much but you could all take an oath. Unfortunately the biggest group in America that is living like this already are probably the first to disappear as they are pacifists, the Amish. They will probably be the first to be targeted in SHTF scenario.

You cant do it all. You cant be the protector on guard duty and the food grower and the processor and the soap maker etc. So once again community is the answer, a group of people with diverse skills or willing to acquire them.

Some things to think about.

I think if you had a small group to run a farm, say two or 3 families to where you could isolate yourselves would be Ideal. Then you just have to hide your farm in the back woods. Just make sure to mark the area as Government toxic waste spills on homemade signs. That way travelers will get the idea that it has been recently surveyed/recon after the fall of civilization. . It may deter a lot of raiders. Just give the illusion that it is not safe for anybody.

KEEP OUT TOXIC WASTE. ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK. Make sure several signs leading up to the road are posted, put a dead human around the Sign

Any roadblocks would certainly be made to look as accidental as possible, along with nearby damage rather than localizing it on the road. Past the roadblocks, several early warning methods would be employed.

At this point, scouts would know what we are dealing with and radio in on it.

Signs spelling out the rules would be on the fences of our ranch, along with the consequences of NOT following them.

Now,if you are lucky enough to have a concrete bunker called beverly hills,(Apocalypse Now reference for the kids),you are probably safe and secure from most guns they may use against you

Making concrete pill boxes isn't really all that difficult, and can be done from materials at your local Home Depot. Concrete cinder blocks, some steel bar rods, and concrete mix, and you could make some pretty strong firing positions to protect your loved ones as they defended the home. Not saying you'd do this until AFTER a SHTF event, but build some of these, and grow some foliage to help conceal them, and any enemy will lose a lot of folks trying to storm you, after everything goes to crap. Pretty doubtful any of their bullets are getting through a cinder block filled with poured concrete and steel bars.

reply to post by Gazrok


I agree,you can make your own pillbox/bunker easily with supplies from the box store,but there are a few issues to address.First,the cost.Sure,you can probably make a great bunker for the cost of an AR,if you have a secluded location where you can work in private,have access to a big truck,trailer,and water for the concrete.Or you could do some adobe type structure with what is already there.Now you have some protection from the bad guys,but what if your bunker is in an area affected by the SHTF? Nuke's,floods,whatever would not allow you to get to it.Hard to make this in a nat'l forest too.
As to the accident scene,why not lead the bad guys to where you aren't? Tie some red flags in the trees leading away from you,lead them off to nowhere! Tie a cd to a branch,it will flutter in the wind and reflect the sun for miles.Paint arrows in the road,maybe add mileage to it,they might fall for it.

reply to post by blkcwbyhat


I'm just talking about taking some $1.25 cinder blocks, and using some $10 bags of concrete mix (or get less, but bigger bags), along with some rebar rods (20' for about $9) and some bags of gravel to make a firing position with protection. Not some kind of major construction project. You and a buddy could probably knock out one of these in a day.

I've still got to play around and see exactly how many I'd need for each, as I currently have enough spare of all that for making about one of them. I'm estimating about 50 blocks for each pillbox. Sure, it won't be cheap, but overall, definitely cheaper then an AR-15.

www.quikrete.com...

About the only thing I'll do ahead of time is make the foundation for where the pillboxes will be, and until then, they'll simply be places to put a nice planter.





I've done enough of my own concrete work to know what's entailed. Though it'd be easier with a rented machine, it isn't necessary. I do like your misdirection suggestions though too.

I'm leaning to the diversion theory myself.You've seen the road painted with "stop ahead"? Think of that,but it says,"Jim turn left",then a few red flags on the poles to the left.Don't even try to hide them,let the world see them.then on the left road,paint "5 miles".Leave them a roadmap to no place.Keep them chasing they're tails till they run out of gas or energy.

Build a central structure as a collections of 'safe room' editions, until it is an entire safe building. Reinforced doors, bastions that provide flanking fire. Call it "the bailey"

Build a larger compound where most of your people live from day to day, and where you keep key equipment and livestock after dark, a "Motte."

You surround the Motte and Bailey with a basic fence with guard towers spaced around it. Like Gazrock envisions (I'd add a screen over windows so you cannot tell if a particular tower is actually occupied.).

Then you build rows of stalls outside the whole thing, and host a "fair" every friday when the weather is nice. Your guards patrol the fair, and you certify the weights and measures used.

Raiders aren't going to jack with that; they'll want to open their own stall!

Feudalism is synonymous in the modern western mind with the European Middle Ages. But the fact is, the vast majority of humans who've ever lived, have inhabited just such a set-up. There are psychologists who argue that humans actually crave social hierarchy and feudalism, and will 'devolve' to it if given the chance. Feudal social order can be extremely resilient in the face of large-scale crisis like famine or plague. The feudal order in Europe actually lasted a thousand years--it's what filled the vacuum left by Rome's collapse, and endured until it was wiped out by the Black Death.

reply to post by tovenar


so,if the SHTF is a plague,virus,whatever the flu of the week is,the last thing I want is a bunch of people wandering into my neck of the woods! Your idea of a fair,basically a farmers market type thing,isn't a bad idea,except for a couple of things.First,what will you be willing to barter for,or with? In a true bug out to the hills scene,you'll have minimal supplies to begin with.Sure,you have,or they have,something you forgot,say toilet paper.Once its bartered away,and used up,then what?Ammo will be used up,all the critters for miles will be shot and eaten,unless you have your own livestock.Most will have a garden in by the time they all find you.Even if you trade sewing or welding for whatever,you will run out of thread,welding wire,gas for the generator,so on.When I'm just surviving in the woods,your silver or gold is useless to me.Maybe stock up on condoms,thats 1 thing you will need!Don't want any accidents out there!