Okay, so the SHTF, and the Raiders come, so now what?

reply to post by blkcwbyhat


Some excellent questions. Personally, I plan for our group to barter WITH the following...(goods and services ideas) after a SHTF scenario

Clean Water (we have a well)
Excess produce from the gardens
Rabbits (excellent replenishable meat source)
Chickens and eggs (same reason as rabbits)
Medical Care (one of our group in a former EMT and she's offered to teach anyone else in the group, if there is a SHTF scenario, take them on as an assistant, and my wife is pretty much a decent vet. We've both had some pretty extensive first aid training and certification as well.)
Prostitution (that is ALL up to the gals involved, but I can think of at least one in our group that would probably do that in a SHTF scenario, for select individuals at least..it's the oldest profession for a reason)
Leather goods (we currently own a saddle and tack shop (on the premises) for horse gear, but have started doing a lot of our own leatherworking)
Seamstress work (most of the gals are good at making their own costumes for different things and clothing repairs)
Mechanical work (I have a pretty well-equipped garage, and a couple of us are pretty mechanically inclined)
Inn Service (place to sleep, running water shower, and a meal, maybe even watch a movie that night)
Maps
Any trade items we take in, that we know we can turn around.

Some other possibilities (that I'm still doing some research on)

Making ammo to sell (need to investigate what materials are needed, what is involved)
More advanced medical care (investigating how to obtain more surgical needs)
Tobacco (we'll grow and process it into cigars, cigarettes)
Liquor (we'll make and distill it)
Biodiesel (for our generators and diesel truck, but also to sell)
Soaps and Candles (we plan to make them, so sell excess)
Recharging Batteries (from our generators/solar, etc.)

Things we'll barter FOR: (these are things raiders, scroungers or other survivors could trade to us for our goods and services)

Firearms and Ammo (always a market for it in that environment)
Other Weapons
Medical Supplies and Medicine
Canned Goods
Toiletry Items
Military and Camping Gear
Batteries
Lighters
Fuel
Misc. Manufactured Goods (really a catch all for store items)
Books
Car parts (for specific vehicles needing service at the time)
Other livestock
Hardware and Tools
Building Supplies
Nostalgia Items

I have to tell you, one thing I will NOT trade is precious metals. I simply don't see the point in any scenario. I'm not sure why so many are gung ho on that. Even in situations where you COULD trade it, you'll never get out of it, what it cost you to put into the investment. A gold ounce's worth of cigarettes today, would be worth FAR more in a SHTF environment than that ounce of gold.

Granted, these are just initial ideas, but I can see us as becoming equipped enough, given a SHTF event, to do these things, and I'd have to think potential raiders could see the value in having a place like this where they could trade things they've collected and have no need for, for things they actually need. And we planned to be armed well enough to deter any other ideas. Of course, we'll never really know until such a thing happens, and I hope we never have to find out.

Still, I enjoy becoming more self-sufficient anyhow, so even if nothing ever happens in my lifetime, I know we can weather a storm or even temporary event very nicely. (and maybe reduce the grocery bill, power bill, and doctor bills in the meantime).

I read Sun Tzu's "Art Of War" - You can make connections and strategies already with friends and compatriots in general - better than just being alone - "they" will be organised - so why shouldn't you be organised? This is quandry to the terrorism and the investigation - thats why code to the ninja is valuable and to not make evidence of preparedness.

reply to post by GetReadyToTheDoomsday


Just read the Bosnia survivor thread on this forum. Regardless of whether a genuine account or not, it certainly seems to be. And, the ONE thing he says, over and over again, is that the main point of his survival was having armed hands to defend the group. That is the key, and it's a point I've embraced since the beginning of my own efforts.

I have 4+1+4+2+2 people (13..don't knock it, it is my lucky number) in my group so far (the different numbers represent that they'd be coming from different locations, 4 on the premises, 1 and 4 who are close (within a good walk) and 2 and 2 who have about an hour drive to get here). I break it up this way, because given the event, not all may get here. There are some other possibilities, but it is a tricky thing. For starters, you have to be sure you can live with these folks, further, there are skills to consider, and finally, they have to at least acknowledge the possibility of something disastrous happening, and take it somewhat seriously, even if not prepping themselves in any way.

reply to post by Gazrok


not really relative,but if you'd like a history of home canning,do a search for "james burke connections episode 8"
eat drink,and be merry.Skip the first 15 minutes,more on warfare..from 15 to 25 minutes,it covers food preservation around 1790.Nothing new,but it led to the moon missions!

reply to post by blkcwbyhat


I helped my grandparents do it when I was younger (home canning), so I'm pretty pumped to get into it, after remembering how long things kept and how good it was, even years later.

reply to post by Gazrok


Todays cans, at least in Aus are getting flimsier and more rust prone. They only seem to have a 3 year life span, not like they used to. I suggest checking the ones you get for home canning and making sure they are good quality even if they cots a bit more. We cant get them here in Aus, there are places that sell canning equipment but not the actual cans, you have to buy them from the US on the net.

So you have some sort of an agreement with these other people? Do you take an oath or something or is it take them at their word type of thing? I am wanting to do something like that when I get myself organized enough.

reply to post by Cinrad


Not sure what it translates to in aussie,but when we say canning,we mean in glass jars,not tin cans

reply to post by Gazrok


I think in a SHTF scenario, chaos would reign for years. I think trust would be the biggest problem, everyone would have to face, not to mention trying to survive. Survivors would be at the mercy of those with weapons. Skills would be a plus, but I think those who do prepare would be the ones who really stand a chance at surviving in a World gone mad.

reply to post by Cinrad

So you have some sort of an agreement with these other people? Do you take an oath or something or is it take them at their word type of thing? I am wanting to do something like that when I get myself organized enough.

These other folks are really good friends, friends we've had for years and years in most cases. People we've worked with in the past, but then formed friendships, people we've been there for, and who've been there for us. We've all talked, sometimes jokingly, sometimes seriously, about what we'd do in a SHTF scenario. We all simply agree that our location, property, and setup is the best option. Our friends live either in a city, or housing community, on one lot, so not in a great situation if a SHTF event were to occur. These are people we see on a regular basis, and we're all already a part of each others' lives. We've gone on trips together, so we've shared the same roof, etc. so we know we can get along.

Gazrock, you might look into "European Style" canning, which uses glass lids and synthetic gaskets, which are re-usable. The aluminum lids of American style glass jars are disposable and must be replaced.

Lehman's carries them.

If you already have chicken production in place, the next step is pig farming.

Pigs are excellent as part of a crop rotation program. Pig waste is the purest form of nitrogen for fertilizer. Sheep/goats and pigs are the only effective way to fertilize larger stretches of land. Horses and Cows pass grain-seeds through their digestive tract, and so their manure, if "hot" contains weed-seeds. Horse manure, even after a year's composting, will grow a field of oats, regardless of how much you plow it first. Hog manure may sprout some corn, but corn is a broadleaf, and can easily be rogued or sprayed for.

The snout of a pig is the ultimate low-tech form of land clearance. Pigs will fell trees if they are fenced in, as they will "ring" the trees until the trees die and collapse. They will root among overturned trees for grubs, and even chew up the wood. There is a reason the most powerful brush-clearing machine is called a "Bush HOG".

In addition to meat, pigs produce lard.

Lard will be a critical substance, if large-scale petroleum based agriculture ever ceases, there will be no vegetable oils for sale or trade. In a crisis, farmer's will cease producing rapeseed, corn, cotton and canola, the source of almost all cooking oil.

Look through your recipes, and see how many of them require some form of butter or cooking oil.

Pigfat gives you soap, candles, cooking 'oil' and a base for most topical medicines. (Pig fat was the base for moist medical ointments up until the prevalence of petroleum jelly--a substance that will disappear overnight in an extended crisis.)

A sow will produce at least 2 litters a year, 3 if she is happy. And each litter will average 6 piglets, 8 if she's happy. That means 24 piglets a year, all of which can be butchered out within 24 months. That is a heck of a lot of meat.

Particularly in the South, pigs thrive much better than either cattle or goats--witness the feral populations in those areas. It is why ham is so associated with southern cuisine.

And most importantly, pigs that are allowed to forage for themselves require the least care of any livestock, after chickens. you move the sty once a week, and check them morning and eve to make sure they have water and have not escaped.

Pigs are profitable, with minimal effort. Nature does most of the work, and we get the bacon.

There is a reason that children's savings banks are shaped like a pig.

reply to post by Gazrok


Please keep fantasizing that you will be able to deal with them.

Read these please:

www.shtfplan.com...

www.infowars.com...

Although the second link is for an InfoWars article, it is less histrionic that the norm and is essentially a narrative report from a Bosnia survivor. It's an interesting read.

reply to post by akalepos


The first article is about prepping in general. With the exception of # 31 and 32, it has no points that pour water on my idea, and I do plan on assuming a posture of a stranger being a threat first.

The second article is one I know well (there's a current thread on it here also). If anything, that article only reinforces EXACTLY what I said, of how there will be barter, and only those banning together for defense will win out.

reply to post by tovenar

If you already have chicken production in place, the next step is pig farming.

We will put chicken production (at least as far as eggs) in place next spring. I'm not looking to go full bore into that kind of farming though (pig farming). My wife and I both work 9 to 5, and though we have a gal at the ranch to help out (and my stepson), they can only manage so much.

Unless it is a survival situation, my wife would never kill and butcher an animal for meat. She acknowledges though, that she'd have to do so if the SHTF. She can clean a fish easily, for example. Rabbits are pretty easy too. We do have this in place. Now, we sell the excess off to pet shops, but in a SHTF scenario, they pop them out pretty quick, etc.

It is a good suggestion....and if there ever is a SHTF scenario, it may not be a bad idea to go round up some pigs...

Gazrock, you might look into "European Style" canning, which uses glass lids and synthetic gaskets

Turns out that isn't unheard of here either (reusable canning supplies)...but thanks for the suggestion.

fight to the death to protect your family and your supplies, once you are dead you wont care anyway so go hard.

reply to post by Gazrok


I do have to commend your situation,you seem very well equipted for a BUG IN,what about a bug out? A few chickens and a few bunnies are doable. I've seen some articles on guerrilla gardens,what about guerrilla livestock? Maybe set a few chickens or bunnies loose in your bug out location,to breed.I'm sure some places will have some invasive specie laws,but if they just got loose? There is a pond near my bug out location,what if I stocked it with crawfish? Just a few random ideas

reply to post by blkcwbyhat


I'd really rather not bug out, but if I have to, you do what you can to survive. The only way I'd bug out permanently would be if my area is unlivable. Any other scenario, and I'm coming back to the ranch after. Wild rabbit and free roaming chickens are not uncommon where I'm at. Hardly a week goes by when I don't see a rabbit (which is why fencing is so important for the garden). Plenty of areas to fish nearby too...and lots of birds, squirrel, etc. Not much in the way of bigger mammals though...other than domestic cows, but not looking to steal from neighbors. (unless they are dead, of course, after the SHTF event).

I think the easiest thing to do would be to join the Raiders -- or cannibals, or whoever. When in Rome, right? At a certain point, struggling against huge odds to maintain your old moralities or way of life just isn't worth it, particularly in the short run. The immediate goal would be survival, and if that means joining up with the skull crushers, then so be it. Let rebuilding society be somebody else's problem.

reply to post by Blue Shift


Just not in my nature.... No doubt it would be an attractive solution for many though, hence my tactical need to devise a strategy for dealing with a large group of them.

The so now what to OP's original question is predicated on a lot of circumstances:

What you did before the shtf in preparation, where you live ie city/small town/country/wilderness, and how you have survived up to the point the raiders arrived, dug-in, bugged out, roaming, stationary, alone or in a group, and your skillsets.

I think small town / country living would be the optimal initial condition for thrival vs survival after the shtf, especially against raiders who probably would rather smash and grab and move on to the next settlement or isolated group, than work for a living.

With small town country living, you're already a member of a community that has a vested interest in the place, is made up of a number of people with many skillsets, who most likely possess a ton of weaponry and ammo and the means and skills to make more.

There is already the nucleus of a democracy and a tradition of following the Constitution, an organization to organize defense, services, rebuilding and the like: local organization is a lot more important when the bigger world has descended into chaos, I think. There are likely many, many acres of already cleared land planted or available, and animals to raise, along with hunting local game.

People in this situation would most likely be able to deal with any size group of raiders.

Think of it as the frontier days of the thirteen colonies more than the wild west. They'd be in a position of strength with prepared positions, sentries, and hundreds, if not thousands to call upon to man the defenses.

Ten to one Whiskey and tobacco would become the medium of exchange, more than gold or ammunition or even food. Whiskey and tobacco takes some modicum of civilization to produce, especially booze. So rather than attacking a larger secure city-state, the bandits would probably be a lot more amenable once they knew they could trade goods for whiskey, and had found a whiskey supply that wouldn't dry up.

Eventually. that's how raiders would be tamed, by whiskey; they'd trade scavenged pharma, parts, anything a settlement couldn't make on their own that was portable enough to carry. Imho.

reply to post by Gazrok


the best way to avoid raiders is to not being noticed at all . your camp needs to be completely invisible to out siders. do not build near roads or open fields hide cyour tracks and so foorth if they don't know you there you won't get raided