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Is there free will in Heaven?

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posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 11:22 PM
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i believe that the reason we experience "earth" and not heaven right away is because of Satan. God gave him free will and he turned his back on God with that free will... However, he gave us Freewill and asked us to either choose him or turn your back on him, so that way when you are in heaven, you will never turn your back on him, as you didn't even turn your back on him when he wasnt even on Earth, and wasn't visible at all. You showed Faith on Earth with no visible proof before you, so there is no way you will turn against him once in heaven as you can see him, and you know his true power, and what he has done just for you. You have free will in heaven, but there is NO TEMPTATION! Temptation is the keyword here, as God doesn't Tempt us, only satan does, and there is no temptation in heaven, thus no sin.... The most fun you will ever have is when you AREN'T Sinning, when you are just flat out having fun and not breaking any laws of earth or God. Trust me, it is true!




posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 11:35 PM
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Good question Amuk. The idea as posited by one or two that we won't want to sin when in Heaven presupposes that only the purest of us who were on earth made it in. Those purest souls would have to have absolutely no thought of sin while on earth, therebey transferring that holiness into Heaven. thus far I can only come up with Ghandi and Mother Theresa who might fit that bill. Why that is so is because the Angels had free will, and there are two very nasty stories about how they abused that gift, sothat leaves out the possibility that free will will be sustained, which leads us right back to what I said in an earlier thread, and you have mentioned here.

There is only plan for us by God and it has nothing to do with the little stort we are told.



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 11:39 PM
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Obviously, the concept of "Heaven" is a little different for each of us. I don't think that's a coincidence. The same thing cannot possibly satisfy everyone.

So here's my idea of Heaven, I call it Convergence.

When we Converge, all spirits will be told who they really are -- the Good News -- in such a manner as to make doubt impossible. This is because the spirit of our Creator will tell us personally. It will be a very convincing speech.


No one will be spared from Convergence, regardless of their deeds, because we are all needed in order for Convergence to succeed.

In that day, the chaff will be separated from the grain, and the chaff will be destroyed. The Good News is that we are all grain -- the chaff is the ignorance which blinds us from knowledge of our true selves, and we will cast it off, no longer needing it.

Then, over a very long period of time, we will join together and share what we have learned in this existence, like a giant party and everyone's invited. We will all be quite happy about it.

Once we have all shared all there is to share, and not a single thought remains hidden from one another, will take our leave of one another, and each of us create a new universe using what we have learned.

This will be accomplished by "dividing" into copies of all spirits whose memories were shared in the last Convergence, thus replicating each of us trillions of times over, since a copy of each of us will be made by every other one of us -- each a Creator -- in their respective universes.

These duplicate spirits will have no conscious memory of their past existences (technically, they are "new" spirits), but carry a copy of all of the Creator's memories within them -- the mark or "image" of the Creator. This could be considered "Original Sin", or the forgetting of ourselves.

Into each universe a new soul will be introduced, chosen by its Creator to make it unique from all others, and tasked with making those changes which the Creator has chosen for the next Cycle of Existence.

Rinse, repeat.

Is this true? I don't know. But it is my idea of Heaven, and I have seen it in visions -- which I think may actually be memories of the last Convergence.

P.S. So "free will" in Heaven? Probably moot in my model of things, since we'll all know the truth, making sin irrelevant and undesirable. We'll be having way too much fun to bother with sin!


[edit on 11/2/2004 by Majic]



posted on Nov, 1 2004 @ 11:49 PM
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Satan = Sin there was no sin until satan disobeyed God and thus sin entered the earth realm. Satan decieved man and caused the "Curse Of Sin" to come upon all mankind. If you remove satan, you will remove the voice that tells us to disobey God and commit a sin. This get a bit deeper here but I think you will be able to understand. Satan actually proves if you really want to serve God. There are many types of sins that we could commit everyday, but if we are striving to please God we will do our best not to yeild to satan's voice.

The first group of beings that God created were the Angels
Lucifer was over all the Angels in Heaven and second only to God, which is why he fell. He wanted to usurp authority over God and was quickly cast down, and 1/3 of the other angels that he convinced to "Choose" and follow him were cast down with him.

The Angels are spirits with the ability to manifest in the flesh. they were as it were "Born In Heaven" and had a choice to obey God or not to.

Man was born as spirit in a flesh body that is far more limited than that of the Angels and "Born On The Earth"

God deals with man differently, Man is on probation here on the earth and given an opportunity to obey God by chioce. The Bible gives us all the instructions on how to make it into Heaven, it is up to us to make the right "CHOICE" it is all clearly written so that we don't have an excuse.

For the people that choose not to believe in God or the Bible there will be no excuse, the Bible clearly tells us what we need to know in order to find God if we truly want to find him. It also tells us of the rewards of the Godly, and the judgement of the Wicked.

The "CHOICE" is up to you



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 12:46 AM
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Majic, my idea is quite similar to yours.
------------------------------------------------



Originally posted by Lastday Prophet
Satan = Sin there was no sin until satan disobeyed God and thus sin entered the earth realm. Satan decieved man and caused the "Curse Of Sin" to come upon all mankind. If you remove satan, you will remove the voice that tells us to disobey God and commit a sin.


As soon as Satan conceived a plot to defy God there was sin, and if he had the ability to conceive of it and commit same, he had free will, and had it in Heaven. Fine, so remove Satan if he is the cause behind man's sins, man will sin no more, and God will have no reason to punish anyone. It is not that I disagree with that premise, but what you are doing is irrationally trying to rationalize that man sins because he has free will which is only tempted to do evil because we hear Satan's voice in our heads. That, when measured against the argument that being given free will was to choose between good and evil, does not measure up in that your statement goes back to exactly as I stated before, all God had to do was remove the temptation to begin with.

The rest of your post confirms what I have already said,and confirms Amuk's argument as being solid.



For the people that choose not to believe in God or the Bible there will be no excuse, the Bible clearly tells us what we need to know in order to find God if we truly want to find him. It also tells us of the rewards of the Godly, and the judgement of the Wicked.
A total misrepresentation of those who do not see it as you do, once again bolstered by the circular argument that The Bible says so. Now what were those warnings again about false prophets and such?



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 01:39 AM
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I don't think it will ever be possible for us to say whether or not we have freewill (in heaven or earth) without first disproving god's existance or meeting our makers, so to speak.

Unless we do that, there is always the chance no matter what we do, and the so called choices we make, have already been predestined. If we change our mind, or make a decision, maybe it has already been decided , and our whole notion of freewill is just a misconception and our path has already been laid out for us.

I'm not saying this is the case, but I don't think its something that we can ever decide one way or another.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 01:44 AM
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Originally posted by slick
I don't think it will ever be possible for us to say whether or not we have freewill (in heaven or earth) without first disproving god's existance or meeting our makers, so to speak.


Destiny is a subtle prison. Your post captures that well.

We may never know if we truly have Freewill, because such knowledge might itself deny Freewill to us.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 06:49 AM
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Everybody talks about sin and Satan but have any of you has seen the entity yet, I tell you where Satan is Satan is the scape goat of every human being when they want to blame anybody else for the errors they commit in everyday life so they can feel redeem.

Satan is and has always been a myth that man created in earth for his own benefit. When men in earth starts taking responsibilities for its actions instead of blaming a Satan for it we as humans will achieve another level of enlightening.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 07:17 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Satan is and has always been a myth that man created in earth for his own benefit. When men in earth starts taking responsibilities for its actions instead of blaming a Satan for it we as humans will achieve another level of enlightening.


I have had contact with many dark spirits, but have been unable to locate "Satan" -- and I have looked thoroughly, hoping to make contact with this being and ask a few questions.

There may be an entity by that name, but more likely whatever "Satan" you encounter will be an impostor. Demons aren't known for their honesty.

So while I cannot rule out the possibility that there is a powerful demon named Satan, I suspect your description of the Devil is probably correct.

Of course, Satan or no Satan, there are always plenty of people willing to give power to that name. After all, it is an important archetype.

More than a few who claim to be Christians spend more time thinking of Satan than praying to God. A fixation on Darkness is just that, regardless of how cleverly disguised.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 07:23 AM
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That's EASY!

In your dreams--while your body is dormant and your spirit is escaping upward to higher dimensions--can't you go and do absolutely ANYTHING that your spirit even visualizes or contemplates?

Of course you can!

There are NO LIMITS in Heaven. So, it can get very boring ... all the same same stuff. After all, anything you can conceive of, is what you manifest instantly before your eyes. Heaven is a HOLODECK.

Sure. Seventy virgins. Streets paved with gold. Orchards that produce on demand--WHATEVER YOU CAN DREAM UP--right before your eyes.

That's why spirits come here, incarnate a humans and experience cause-and-effect--so they have some HARD LIMITS to buck up AGAINST and learn from.

Now, the Cosmos are another matter; the Cosmos [space] consolidates and vivifies experience with Cause-and-effect, with miracles, with Group Think and ideological boundaries, with visualizing a reality that is beyond your ability to command; and with the possibility of an endless, Eternal Death-by-dissipation. The Cosmos are TRULY scary.

Really.


I tend to agree with the above mostly. However, this also refers to a person's own created Hell, as they can do this to themselves as well....



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 07:26 AM
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Originally posted by Amuk
The post about freewill got me to thinking what about after we die?

Can we still sin in heaven or will freewill be taken away once we get there?

Are we allowed to have freewill here just to be turned into a robot once we die?

If we will still have freewill what is to keep us from turning heaven into the same crap we have earth?

In other words can we sin in heaven? What would happen then? whould we go to hell?


Your questions are reasonable on one condition--that there is heaven. I personally think that after we die we do not continue to exist as we are, we are unconcious of who we were when we were alive and unconcious of our INDIVIDUAL conciousness. That makes free will unnecessery after death, but inflicts the teory of what I call a "Collective Will"



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 08:07 AM
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well considering the bible talks about EVERYONE in heaven worshipping,bowing before god and praising his name, I think free will would kinda go out the door the moment you enter heaven. Either you submit totally to worshipping god, or you goto hell...



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 09:07 AM
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IS THERE FREE WILL IN HEAVEN ??

No free will ---organized will and stop to try breack brick wall (street ).

regards many many chapo




posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 10:01 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Everybody talks about sin and Satan but have any of you has seen the entity yet, I tell you where Satan is Satan is the scape goat of every human being when they want to blame anybody else for the errors they commit in everyday life so they can feel redeem.


Yes, saw him three times in three different forms. No red cape/skin or pitchfork. That's all I want to say about it.


Originally posted by marg6043
Satan is and has always been a myth that man created in earth for his own benefit. When men in earth starts taking responsibilities for its actions instead of blaming a Satan for it we as humans will achieve another level of enlightening.


Not a myth & we do have to also be responsible for our actions.

[edit on 2-11-2004 by saint4God]

[edit on 2-11-2004 by saint4God]



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 10:04 AM
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Originally posted by Amuk
So you are saying that we lose the ability to choose in heaven?


I think that the christian reponce would be something to the effect of those that made it into heaven would never choose to sin in the first place. That would be one way to get around the freewill issue.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 10:08 AM
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Yes, just as we have the recorded prophesy that Satan will be responsible for his actions also.

Yet, he was permitted to operate by Evil--perhaps so the rest of us could learn to deal with it in cause-and-effect material terms.

[shrug]



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 10:14 AM
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EXCELLENT QUESTION

YOU KNOW, even I can't answer this. And I one of the biggest advocates for God giving us freewill, but why you would need it there will be no evil for you to choose only good.

ALMOST LIKE THE CHICKEN BEFORE THE EGG ARGUEMENT, who knows the answer to a question with no information....


I'm so confused, Bush would say this is the perfect time for me to vote, I'm that confused........

[edit on 2/11/2004 by drbryankkruta]



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 10:24 AM
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Originally posted by xpert11
Is there free will in heaven?
Since heaven dosnt exist there can be no free will.



I was gonna type this myself


The point is moot coz heaven does not exist.



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 10:34 AM
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no freewill in heaven??!!?? Well,see you in hell!!!



posted on Nov, 2 2004 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Yes, saw him three times. No red cape/skin, horns or pitchfork. That's all I want to say about it.


Originally posted by marg6043
Satan is and has always been a myth that man created in earth for his own benefit. When men in earth starts taking responsibilities for its actions instead of blaming a Satan for it we as humans will achieve another level of enlightening.


Not a myth & we do have to also be responsible for our actions.

[edit on 2-11-2004 by saint4God]


Every time I see a demon look like spirit all I do is ask him to show his true self get what! is nothing more that what we want to see, if you really believe in a satan or demon it will come to you and it will show to you they way you want it to be.

But is not real and it has never been real, I know people that spend their life thinking about death and hell when is not real, heaven is a place where souls gather after their human and earth experiences were we all go, liberate yourself from the mind made and church made satan and fulfill your role on earth, because after you finish is a better place to go and that place is home, and you can call it heaven.



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