Islam and Free Speech: Principle vs. Privilege

reply to post by ollncasino


Did you read any of the rest of it? No cigar for you either I'm afraid

Ain't never gonna happen Olin - you're wasting your efforts - and your breath

:-)

Same old , same old with Islam , this is free speech !!!

The moment ANY religion or ANY other person comes from another country and sets foot on American soil they are then subject to the Constitution,if their faith claims fealty to laws, beyond the Constututional precepts those laws are abrogated,or they may leave. Or we will apply our laws as they are written.
If they are displeased and are citizens they may vote.
They may insult my faith and we may insult theirs (Disgusting and I don't do, it as I understand it) That is the law.
I am thankful of others who have come here to keep us great. I will gladly destroy those who seek to place me into their laws.
Leave it alone at that.

As we speak filth runs the govt that is NOT the American way and we are in a mess.
We'll need prayers from ALL faiths if we are to win.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


What amazes me is the intensity of feelings that any examination of Islam or what Muslims think produces.

If one discusses surveys that show most British and American Muslims oppose free speech or that Islamic nations are trying to ban criticism of Islam through the UN on an annual basis two things happen.

(i) Muslims pop up arguing that even though Islam will stop you saying anything they don't like, that is really freedom of speech, Islamic style.

(ii) A few non Muslims with very strong opinions will jump to Islam's defense and accuse anyone who discusses Islamic opposition to free speech as: hating Muslims and Islam (Skalla); thinking about nothing else but Islam and thinking all Muslims are out to get you (gladtobehere) &; comparing any publicization of Islam opposition to free speech as being the same as Nazi anti-Semitic rhetoric (Spiramirabilis).

It really is quite fascinating.

What I don't understand is why Islam is exempt from criticism. For instance, some on this thread appear to think that even talking about Islamic attempts to limit free speech is somehow an abuse of free speech.

Crazy logic by any standards.

Luckily, they are outnumbered by the people on this thread who feel that free speech is something worth fighting for and who don't agree that Islam is above criticism.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

Ain't never gonna happen Olin - you're wasting your efforts - and your breath

I don't think the 57 Islamic nations will push their Blasphemy resolution through the UN either in the foreseeable future. But it isn't for want of trying.

Forgive me if I don't share your optimism that Muslims will one day become proponents of free speech. There is no evidence of them ever being so or of becoming so.

I admire your optimism but I don't share it.

reply to post by ollncasino

Forgive me if I don't share your optimism that Muslims will one day become proponents of free speech. There is no evidence of them ever being so or of becoming so.

I admire your optimism but I don't share it.

I really appreciate that you said this

Most people want the basics - freedom, health - food, shelter - education - work. We want to thrive. We all value these things - but they don't always look the same to all of us at the same time

I'm not always optimistic - that's for damn sure. I know there are things I won't see change during my lifetime - but I know from looking at history that they will eventually. But - I do see signs of change now - everywhere

There are parts of this world that are going to change from within - it's inevitable

I'm outta here Olin - interesting discussion

:-)

Originally posted by ollncasino
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

 

What amazes me is the intensity of feelings that any examination of Islam or what Muslims think produces.

If one discusses surveys that show most British and American Muslims oppose free speech or that Islamic nations are trying to ban criticism of Islam through the UN on an annual basis two things happen.

(i) Muslims pop up arguing that even though Islam will stop you saying anything they don't like, that is really freedom of speech, Islamic style.

(ii) A few non Muslims with very strong opinions will jump to Islam's defense and accuse anyone who discusses Islamic opposition to free speech as: hating Muslims and Islam (Skalla); thinking about nothing else but Islam and thinking all Muslims are out to get you (gladtobehere) &; comparing any publicization of Islam opposition to free speech as being the same as Nazi anti-Semitic rhetoric (Spiramirabilis).

It really is quite fascinating.

What I don't understand is why Islam is exempt from criticism. For instance, some on this thread appear to think that even talking about Islamic attempts to limit free speech is somehow an abuse of free speech.

Crazy logic by any standards.

Luckily, they are outnumbered by the people on this thread who feel that free speech is something worth fighting for and who don't agree that Islam is above criticism.

edit on 10-3-2013 by ollncasino because: (no reason given)

i have not accused "anyone who discusses islamic opposition to free speech" as a hater of islam and muslims, i have only made that comment in relation to yourself, in the context of a great many posts that i have seen you make.
anyway, milk and two sugars? i dont have coffee i'm afraid, it's strictly tea here i'm also out of biccies but i do have some very yummy jammy cake - if you were here with me in person i genuinely would put the kettle on and carve you a proper doorstop...i know we have disagreed quite strongly with each other on some threads, i guess the reason that i dont understand you is that you appear to me to be on a quest, which sometimes i feel i have to respond to.

as i have stated, it's as i see you as highly prejudiced. i have an impression/perception (which of course may be inaccurate) that you spend a lot of time reading very one sided news and propaganda (in particular) which you have stated worries you a great deal. yet my own life experience (we are both from the uk, though i get the impression that you may now live in the US, again ofc i could be wrong) gives me a very different impression from those you have gained and obviously our attitudes differ widely. when i see you spreading what i see as prejudice it's almost like you have created ats's version of godwin's law in your own name, but with islam and not mr h.

reply to post by ollncasino

I'm sorry - I missed this

What I don't understand is why Islam is exempt from criticism. For instance, some on this thread appear to think that even talking about Islamic attempts to limit free speech is somehow an abuse of free speech.

Crazy logic by any standards.

Luckily, they are outnumbered by the people on this thread who feel that free speech is something worth fighting for and who don't agree that Islam is above criticism.

Freedom of speech means everything to me - and I will defend everybody's right to think and speak freely

Islam is in no way exempt from criticism

I'll put it this way Olin - I think it's a dangerous thing when any group of people becomes the focus of constant negative attention. We are free to speak - but at times there's a fine line between criticism and persecution

Obsession is hardly ever a useful thing - it messes with our ability to reason

But that's true for all of us on both sides - or all sides

:-)

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by mideast

Islam allows the people who are oppressed to raise their voice , but it forbids insulting because it is nothing but irrational and unreasonable way of communication.

What is wrong with that ?

You think people should not be allowed to say something if you find it insulting?

That isn't freedom of speech. I find your suggestion irrational, unreasonable and insulting. It shouldn't be allowed.

See how that works?

10,000 Muslims Protest Against Free Speech at Google in UK

edit on 10-3-2013 by ollncasino because: (no reason given)

The reason:

Anger over 'The Innocence of Muslims', an American-produced film which insults the Prophet Mohammad and demeans Muslims, according to protesters, remains available to watch on the website YouTube, a subsidiary of Google.
The Telegraph

My response:

Innocence Of Muslims - Prophet Muhammad



Boasting about free speech on here mr brummie? You're missing the point!

Originally posted by skalla
i know we have disagreed quite strongly with each other on some threads, i guess the reason that i dont understand you is that you appear to me to be on a quest, which sometimes i feel i have to respond to.

If I am on a quest, it is one driven by my dislike of political correctness that places some issues off topic. Islam is a classic example.

I can remember that just 3 or 4 years ago, if anyone said a word against Islam on this website and on the Internet in general, they were aggressively insulted and mocked by people. Most people kept quiet. A few people like myself argued back.

A few people still try to mock and insult anyone who says anything against Islam but the mockers and insulters are now very much a minority.

Originally posted by skalla
as i have stated, it's as i see you as highly prejudiced.

Pot meet kettle?

I could point out that I do have a knowledge of Islam that allows me to debate with Muslims on a level that you clearly do not. In other words, I know what I am talking about.

Originally posted by skalla
i have an impression/perception (which of course may be inaccurate) that you spend a lot of time reading very one sided news and propaganda (in particular) which you have stated worries you a great deal. yet my own life experience (we are both from the uk, though i get the impression that you may now live in the US, again ofc i could be wrong) gives me a very different impression from those you have gained and obviously our attitudes differ widely.

I read the The Guardian, The Independent, The Telegraph and I also admit a weakness for the Daily Mail.

Two left wing newspapers and two right wing. My attitude to Islam is very much in accord with the readers' comments on all of those papers, although the left wing newspapers do sometimes run articles greatly at odds with the attitude of their on-line readership.

Whether you like it or not, the genie is out of the bottle. Political correctness, insults and mockery have not succeeded in silencing people.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

I'll put it this way Olin - I think it's a dangerous thing when any group of people becomes the focus of constant negative attention. We are free to speak - but at times there's a fine line between criticism and persecution

I don't see Muslims being persecuted in either the USA or the UK. I do so a lot of justified criticism being leveled against Islam by ordinary people. By the media? No. By the government? No. By the police? No.

In many ways, Islam and Muslims are a favored minority. But ordinary people are no longer buying it.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

Obsession is hardly ever a useful thing - it messes with our ability to reason

Don't tell me. Tell the people so obsessed by something that they get down on their hands and knees 5 times a day to pray to Mecca. How obsessed do you have to be to do that?

Originally posted by ollncasino
Don't tell me. Tell the people so obsessed by something that they get down on their hands and knees 5 times a day to pray to Mecca. How obsessed with something do you have to be to get down on your knees and pray 5 times a day?

Have you heard of the Kabaa and why they walk seven times around it? Have you heard of the seven spiritual realms and the energy points on the planet? There is so much you do not understand its unbelievable. That place apparently is the most powerful energy tapping point on the planet. With that there is something unique about that certain place compared to the rest of them around he world. The energy runs the opposite of every other point. They say after you have done the ritual, your life will change forever... But we will never know because thats to ridiculous for our western world.

Polls can be very naughty and mis-leading.

I believe in Free Speech and truth as well and I wonder, how many use that as a disguise for more passive aggressive hostility rather than a genuin respectful and civil attempt to examine, critique and reveal truth (providing legitimate facts in a mature manner to support that truth that we may come to know it to be so.)? And to what extent is Freedom of Speech taken out of context? I suppose the controversy is like the question, "Should I have a right to yell fire in a building when there is no fire?".

Perhapes this debate is more complicated than at first glance. Was it the intent of our Founding Father's that it should be utterly unrestrained or are we to take certain things into consideration? If we are a Nation of Laws, then we are not utterly free to do as we will, yet, are we to say that because of 'Laws' our Freedoms are being infringed upon? Perhapes someone can explaine the proper context of Freedom of Speech and answere some of my questions that I might better understand myself that of which I may be so ignorant. I think also to some degree, such questions can be applied universal as well since we are considering such.

Originally posted by ollncasino
Muhammad was . . .

Clearly lying is free-speech to you.
But, just as diarrhea , running foul off the mouth needs
an equivalent of Imodium.
But then, some people prefer their stench for odd reasons

______________________

Originally posted by ToneDeaf
Muhammad was . . .

A prophet and the funny thing is one of his closest followers was a Palestinian Christian who converted to Islam Why would a Christian convert and follow him if he was such a bad man like people make him out to be...

Originally posted by ToneDeaf

Clearly lying is free-speech to you.
But, just as diarrhea , running foul off the mouth needs
an equivalent of Imodium.
But then, some people prefer their stench for odd reasons

If you tell me what you think I have lied about, then we can compare our sources to see who is right and who is wrong.

If you are unwilling to do so, then your ad hominium attack amounts to nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

_______________________

Why does america censor laughter ? ? ?
Long Island man faces jail for laughing too loudly in own home
ca.news.yahoo.com...

School confiscates third-grader’s cupcakes
news.yahoo.com...

Comments cut from BBC web tribute to Jimmy Savile
www.express.co.uk...

Israel's War on Truth
www.youtube.com...

WHO IS DOING THE CENSORING, REALLY ? ? ?

Attacking someones Personal-Spiritual-Beliefs however,
is in same category as attacking someone for their personal taste.
It is NOT the same since,
NOBODY ASKED FOR YOUR OPINION.
. . . all while your own government is censoring and prosecuting
whistle blowers, and arresting people for laughing

BTW why is u.s population only 5% globally, yet u.s has the most
people in prisons than anywhere else in the world ? . . . think about
that for a bit .

__________________________

______________________

Originally posted by ollncasino
I don't see the US government working away to remove my freedom of expression.

Think again.

______________________

reply to post by ToneDeaf

Why does america censor laughter ? ? ?

Thats not really censorship, the rationale was because of loudness. And it made the news as ridiculous, I wonder when will the same happen in muslim countries with censoring blasphemy and religious insults?

School confiscates third-grader’s cupcakes

Thats an overprotective teacher, not censorship by government, and again it made news and was widely condemned.


Stupid BS happens everywhere from time to time, whats more important is actual laws and will of the the people. And I doubt muslims tend to support free speech, as its a concept quite alien to their culture of submission. No offense to exceptions.