Islam and Free Speech: Principle vs. Privilege

reply to post by ollncasino


I have an issue with bigotry and the use of propaganda to reinforce prejudice which i see as a way to purposefully further division rather than to increase shared understanding and the ability to live in peace.
I do feel for example that some recent muslim immigrants to the uk take time to adjust to the british "tolerant" approach (sadly on the decline for reasons above imo), but its easy to understand for a plethora of reasons and I feel that over time, this will change - this is common when other cultures move to nations with differing behaviours, traditions and heritage etc. We've seen it before and should be wiser to it.

Originally posted by skalla

I have an issue with bigotry and the use of propaganda to reinforce prejudice which i see as a way to purposefully further division rather than to increase shared understanding and the ability to live in peace.

People have the right to do and believe anything they like until those beliefs and actions start to impact other peoples' rights. Muslims wishing to restrict free speech is impacting my rights.

Publicizing the fact that the majority of British and American Muslims polled wish to restrict free speech if they feel it insults their religion isn't bigotry or propaganda on my part. It is bigotry and intolerance on their part.

Originally posted by skalla
I do feel for example that some recent muslim immigrants to the uk take time to adjust to the british "tolerant" approach (sadly on the decline for reasons above imo), but its easy to understand for a plethora of reasons and I feel that over time, this will change - this is common when other cultures move to nations with differing behaviours, traditions and heritage etc. We've seen it before and should be wiser to it.

I think you should bear in mind that many British Muslims were burning Salman Rushdie's book and marching on the streets demanding his execution 24 years ago.

The Satanic Verses and the fatwā

British Muslims, as a group, were a thin skinned bunch 24 years ago and they are a thin skinned bunch today.

Originally posted by beezzer
I'm Episcopal. Since that is the one true religion (along with Catholocism) everyone will worship the Pope.

You, of course, have the choice not to. But your choice will include punishment.

Don't insult the Pope.

Don't question the Pope's teachings.

That would be apostacy. And you will be punished.

(see how that sounds?)

I said

Insulting is different than arguing and criticizing and questioning

What is your idea ?

Who says "people should be blind follower ?"

Being blind is not going to lead to any change.

I am pretty sure that there are many fake stories about Jesus ,too.

But these people are not even religious ,they don't care for the truth in any way.

They have no clear ideology.

As long as it is on their side , they follow.

And I am happy that they are not Muslims, because they would be other bigot fanatic groups which are shame for Muslims.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by skalla

I have an issue with bigotry and the use of propaganda to reinforce prejudice which i see as a way to purposefully further division rather than to increase shared understanding and the ability to live in peace.

People have the right to do and believe anything they like until those beliefs and actions start to impact other peoples' rights. Muslims wishing to restrict free speech is impacting my rights.

Publicizing the fact that the majority of British and American Muslims polled wish to restrict free speech if they feel it insults their religion isn't bigotry or propaganda on my part. It is bigotry and intolerance on their part.

Originally posted by skalla
I do feel for example that some recent muslim immigrants to the uk take time to adjust to the british "tolerant" approach (sadly on the decline for reasons above imo), but its easy to understand for a plethora of reasons and I feel that over time, this will change - this is common when other cultures move to nations with differing behaviours, traditions and heritage etc. We've seen it before and should be wiser to it.

I think you should bear in mind that many British Muslims were burning Salman Rushdie's book and marching on the streets demanding his execution 24 years ago.

The Satanic Verses and the fatwā

British Muslims, as a group, were a thin skinned bunch 24 years ago and they are a thin skinned bunch today.

edit on 10-3-2013 by ollncasino because: (no reason given)

it sounds to me that you are describing the british approach to expression (broadly speaking, rights and responsibilities) rather than pure freedom of speech (which i have seen numerous US posters here describe as being allowed to tell immigrants to just f off back home, for example). now that may be a matter of my perception but it really does not sound like you are describing freedom of speech. i live in the uk, am pretty much an opinionated *bleep*, yet i have no issue the fact that i dont technically have freedom of speech here - i like living in what i see as a more considerate society - i have never had difficulty/legal issues expressing myself (or being outspoken) inspite of this "lack of freeedom" in relation to the us, indeed i prefer it this way.

publicising the poll may not be bigotry in your view, however wenzel strategies, who carried out the poll, are well known as bigots and entirely biased and manipulative. i attatch no credibility whatsoever to their results - look into them if you care to, perhaps you'll consider what you discover and see at least a little of what i mean.

i also knew many muslims 24 years ago who were unconcerned that Rushdie had supposedly blasphemed Islam, and felt that many other muslims were entirely out of order in their reaction. not all muslims are the same, there are different branches and approaches under that categorisation, you generally fail to recognise this and group them all together for whatever reason.

Originally posted by beezzer
I want to see an islamist defend a Christian (or any person) who is criticizing Islam.

I don't blaim people who criticize Islam or even Muhammad (PBUH).

But I have spent all my life discussing.

My common sense tells me that I should have true and 100% right information about what people are talking about.

But people on this thread want to prove their idea by leaning on unreliable internet sources.

+ I will always support some one who can change his idea.

But standing in one point and leaning on lies can not change anything.

And I do believe that change and guidance will find the ones who seek it.

Bringing the truth by spoon will not do any help.

Lies about dead people and accusing them and changing the truth will always be easy but not helpful.

reply to post by mideast


Will you defend my right to call Islam false and a lie?

Originally posted by mideast
But people on this thread want to prove their idea by leaning on unreliable internet sources.

YOU rely on the official totalitarian Iranian Government media outlet for your information.
That's pretty darn unreliable.

Lies about dead people and accusing them and changing the truth will always be easy but not helpful.

Saying that Muhammad was a murderer is not a lie or hate. It's the truth.
Saying that Muhammad was a caravan thief is not a lie or hate . It's the truth.
Saying that Muhammad made up stories about Jesus is not a lie or hate. It's the truth.

Telling those truths is not 'hate speech' and it isn't telling lies.
It's simply telling the truth.

People who don't like to hear those truths and who scream that those truths should be silenced by beheading or torture or jail time .. that's ignorant on their part. This is why free speech is so important. Otherwise, fanatics would be able to shut down truth. Ignorance and religious fanaticism (fanaticism of ANY religion) go hand in hand.

Originally posted by skalla
Publicising the poll may not be bigotry in your view, however wenzel strategies, who carried out the poll, are well known as bigots and entirely biased and manipulative. i attatch no credibility whatsoever to their results - look into them if you care to, perhaps you'll consider what you discover and see at least a little of what i mean.

Why does an American poll that shows most American Muslims polled want speech they find insulting banned under the constitution surprise you?

It is consistent with a British poll carried out by NOP Research Link, a major market research company. The poll was carried for Channel 4 and reported on CBS news.

• 78% feel that the people who published the Danish Muhammad bomb cartoon should be punished.
• 68% believe that people who insult Islam should be arrested and prosecuted.
• 62% believe that freedom of speech should not be allowed if it insults Islam.

CBS news

I hope you find Channel 4, CBS News and NOP Research above reproach.

Originally posted by skalla
i also knew many muslims 24 years ago who were unconcerned that Rushdie had supposedly blasphemed Islam, and felt that many other muslims were entirely out of order in their reaction. not all muslims are the same, there are different branches and approaches under that categorisation, you generally fail to recognise this and group them all together for whatever reason.

I'm sure there were many Muslims who disagreed with other British Muslims calling for the death of Salman Rushdie in 1989 for writing the Satanic Verses.

Most British Muslims however were and remain opposed to free speech if it insults Islam.

Quite simply, most British Muslims (68%) would arrest and prosecute Salman Rushdie for writing a book they feel insulted Islam.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by mideast

 

Will you defend my right to call Islam false and a lie?

Yes. I do.

It is not insulting.

And I prefer that we sit behind negotiation table and bring our reasons.

IT is easy to accuse each other when it is accusation war. It won't happen in true civilized talking and reasoning.

Originally posted by mideast

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by mideast

 

Will you defend my right to call Islam false and a lie?

Yes. I do.

It is not insulting.

And I prefer that we sit behind negotiation table and bring our reasons.

IT is easy to accuse each other when it is accusation war. It won't happen in true civilized talking and reasoning.

edit on 10-3-2013 by mideast because: (no reason given)

Thank you for your reply.

But why would we need to negotiate? Why can't you or anyone else just accept the fact that I think Islam is wrong?

It is not my concern to bring you towards my brand of Christianity.

Can't you just accept that some may think it is wrong and support my freedom to think that way?

reply to post by ollncasino


Explanation! I see it like this ok ...

You can indeed say whatever you want to as a muslim or as a non muslim ... GOD gives us all a tongue ok and it is up to us how we employ that to best effect ... there is no chip in anybodies head just yet governing what CAN or CANNOT be said ... so speech is indeed free.

However everything has its own consequences and that does not limit any freedom of speech unless one is afraid of the consequences.

Hence it is ones OWN fear that governs such things ... act freely and without fear and be willing to be killed and or punished for what one says if it upsets others.

The consequences don't limit the speech ... just the fear of such consequences does.

ONE CAN SAY WHATEVER THEY WANT TO!

But they can't escape the consequences!

This is the law of nature ... its called cause and effect and that exists way beyond the koran or islam etc!

Personal Disclosure: I have the right to offend you and you of course have the right to kill me if you don't like that ... see how that IS FAIR!

reply to post by ollncasino


it does not surprise me, i am simply disappointed that you present information from a discredited polling organisation, via a reknowned fundamentalist christian rag as being reputable.

Wenzel Strategies are not reputable or fair, as you claim. Checking and analysing their results on WND would make this quite plain to those not clouded by prejudice, but obvs people here like links etc, so i've quickly looked one up... i'm actually pretty short on time today, but i'll do my best to find some info to counter yours.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

kokomotribune.com...

as for poll results..

56% of american muslims are satisfied with the way things are going in the us - wouyld we find similar figures for american non muslims?

76% of american muslims approve of obama's performance (cue "it's because he's a muslim"?? i'm just playing there )

81% of american muslims say that suicide bombing is never justified

46% of american christians see themselves as christians first, americans second, and 49% of american muslims see themselves as muslims first, americans second - not so different i'm sure you will agree.

www.people-press.org...

American Muslims do not want Sharia (contrary to what you may read on WND, or ATS for that matter)
www.huffingtonpost.com...

i really believe that fundamental christians are as much danger to the world, maybe even more so, than radical islam. why would you use fundamentalist christian sources for a balanced picture (especially as you have stated that you are not a christian) - is it because you have no interest in a balanced picture?

reply to post by beezzer

But why would we need to negotiate? Why can't you or anyone else just accept the fact that I think Islam is wrong?

I can accept that you think Islam is false and wrong , but don't you think that both sides should have equal right to express their opinion ?

I mean , suppose that me and you are saying we are both prophets , and we deny each other as prophets.

But I decide to take a speaker and come to the streets and express my opinion. Isn't it your right to pick up your speaker and express your opinion ?

That is my point. Muslims are not being treated equal as others , so they are asking that those who have taken out their speakers give up this unfair attack.

And , In Islam there are differences in believe and sects , and no one is forcing another one to believe.

The OP has pepertratrated and OUTRIGHT LIE in his post, and further inflamed others, 4 pages long, to scream and hurt at each other.

The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community only sought to invoke the principle of responsible free speech, under the banner of PEACE, and NOWHERE did it said under the banner of Islam.

Only the OP SELF CREATED himself, in the hope that ATS members would be inflame and blinded by rage to overlook that FACT.

There is a difference in both banners. If under Islam, it would mean all mankind to bow to the teachings of Islam.

However, as that community had said, it is to be under the banner of PEACE, meaning peaceful co-existance, or it would have reflected under Islam.

And the crux of the matter is the principle of freedom of speech. Freedoms are a power and with power comes responsibilities, from oneself to others sharing our world.

Consider carefully the implications of what was said, but at the same time, NO HUMAN should be hurt or harmed if he done so out of ignorances, or out of fast tongue before engaging the mind, or even shouted out publically that may caused hurt and harmed.

The right response to prevent it from happening is by education, and pulling that person aside and reason with him using logic to derive truths and consequences.

If he refuses to listen, shows no remorse, then and only then should the FULL weight of the law be hurled upon him, in a court for justice to be served if others were hurt and harmed by either such intentional outburst, or those whom sought to use violence FIRST to shut up the ignorant and the quick of tongue.

It is high time we evolve, for we mankind are no longer living in the jungles, all by ourselves. Even primates don't do that, and try to live within communities, either at the society building block stage such as a family, or for food resource such as in packs, but unfortunately, being lower species, they created no rule of law except rule of might and thus their failures and subject to the domination by man.

So too will we go the way of the animals if we continue to behave as animals, instead as an evolving species.

Originally posted by mideast


I can accept that you think Islam is false and wrong , but don't you think that both sides should have equal right to express their opinion ?

Absolutely. I would fight for your right to believe and worship how you want.

I mean , suppose that me and you are saying we are both prophets , and we deny each other as prophets.

But I decide to take a speaker and come to the streets and express my opinion. Isn't it your right to pick up your speaker and express your opinion ?

That is my point. Muslims are not being treated equal as others , so they are asking that those who have taken out their speakers give up this unfair attack.

And , In Islam there are differences in believe and sects , and no one is forcing another one to believe.

edit on 10-3-2013 by mideast because: (no reason given)

Then why is Christian worship so persecuted?

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101

. . . . .

If he refuses to listen, shows no remorse, then and only then should the FULL weight of the law be hurled upon him, in a court for justice to be served if others were hurt and harmed by either such intentional outburst, or those whom sought to use violence FIRST to shut up the ignorant and the quick of tongue.

. . . . .

If he refuses to listen
shows no remorse

You mean, if he continues to state that one religious belief is wrong?

Is that what you mean?

reply to post by beezzer

Then why is Christian worship so persecuted?

Who is persecuting Christian worship ?

It is said that there are not three gods , is this persecution ?

Are Christians not able to defend their believe ? Don't they have their media and speakers to speak through ?

I said that both sides should have fair speakers and tables to discuss these matters. That is what Muslims demand , give us speakers and tables or stop insulting us at least.

Absolutely. I would fight for your right to believe and worship how you want.

And that is fair relationship. I already knew you are a fair person. God bless.

Originally posted by mideast
Muslims are not being treated equal as others ,

That's not true. That's backwards from reality.

Certain Muslims are not treating others as equals.
Muslims have freedom of speech. But the muslims who go around saying -
'behead those who insult the prophet' are the ones who are trying to take
freedom of speech equal rights away from non-muslims.

Originally posted by mideast
Who is persecuting Christian worship ?

CT Post - Dozens of Christian Homes in Pakistan Torched
Saudi Arabia - Rosaries and Bibles and Crucifixes banned in public and you can't take them in on an airplane

There is a whole lot more out there ... but there you go for starters ...

reply to post by FlyersFan


Oh , Pakistan , the geographic capital of al-qaeda and the center of sectarian wars.

I just propose the ones who can leave it , leave it sooner.

There is fire and bloodshed in the country all the time , and there is no wonder that Christians could also get stuck in the middle.

What is wrong with you , when are you going to stop blindness ?

There is always war in the country , why is that new to you now ?

The government has the country out of it's hands for so long. Anything can happen in Pakistan.

Should I support these fires and bloodshed for I am Muslim ?

Is that how open mind you are ?

Originally posted by beezzer
If he refuses to listen
shows no remorse

You mean, if he continues to state that one religious belief is wrong?

Is that what you mean?

Please do not try to act moronic.

Every nation has its own constitution and rules of law, even in dictatorships.

For the one who is within that country and had broken the laws of land governing religious beliefs, then he must face justice in courts. Only the courts can determine if he had done wrong or not, as under the constitution which is agreed to be abided by all its citizens.

If there is a need for change religious beliefs or part of the constitution, then it have to come from all citizens or at least its majority.

If he is outside, he is only an outsider and don't even have a vote in the offended country, so why bother, and worse, to inflame its citizens to go nuts over an outsider's claims who is not even the political leader representing its people?