Islam and Free Speech: Principle vs. Privilege

reply to post by spiritualzombie


seeing as i'm a bit tired of being serious, i counter your point with some documentary evidence i came across

Originally posted by DarknStormy
Would that offend you? People should use the freedom of their stupid brains before they speak and offend people.

Restrictions on free speech shouldn't be based on whether someone feels offended or not. Facts often do offend people.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
Its funny though, people are free to offend Islam but when they fly a few posters saying to behead people, it offends you? Isn't it their right to freedom of speech?

Incitement to violence should never be freedom of speech. That is pretty much the legal situation in the USA.

reply to post by ollncasino


Lets lift the anti-semite laws then and see how the Israelis like it? Lets all be equal and take pot shots at each other and brin Jews back into the firing line of insults also.. What good for one is good for the other..

Originally posted by ollncasino
Restrictions on free speech shouldn't be based on whether someone feels offended or not. Facts often do offend people.

So do blatant insults on ones religion, especially when someone starts burning and urinating on religious holy books.

Incitement to violence should never be freedom of speech. That is pretty much the legal situation in the USA.

And what I said above is not inciting violence?

Originally posted by DarknStormy

Lets lift the anti-semite laws then and see how the Israelis like it? Lets all be equal and take pot shots at each other and brin Jews back into the firing line of insults also.. What good for one is good for the other..

I didn't enact the anti-Semite laws nor do I support them.

I could be wrong but as far as I am aware anti-Semite laws (outlawing the denial of the holocaust) are only a mainland European thing.

As far as I know, such laws don't exist in the USA and the UK.

reply to post by DarknStormy


Burning the Koran is free expression.

Also bible burning, bible urinating. . . . etc.

Burning a Muslim would be a hate crime.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by DarknStormy

 

Burning the Koran is free expression.

Also bible burning, bible urinating. . . . etc.

Burning a Muslim would be a hate crime.

Making signs sayin behead all Islam insulters is free expression also.. How many of those Muslims actually beheaded someone?

Originally posted by DarknStormy
So do blatant insults on ones religion, especially when someone starts burning and urinating on religious holy books.

And what I said above is not inciting violence?

I think the idea is you are supposed to turn the other cheek when someone burns or urinates on your holy books. It isn't supposed to be an excuse to respond violently.

On the other hand, if someone urged others to commit violence, perhaps in response to someone burning or urinating on a holy book, then that would be restricted under US limits of speech.

reply to post by ollncasino


But the thing is these acts are coming from an apparent Christian leader in the USA... A guy who should know better than to be doing those things because its against his own religion to start with. But this guy was not happy enough with burning Korans, he went out and got a movie made about Mohammed... Really, this is inciting a response whether its violent or not and we know what did happen...

Originally posted by DarknStormy

Making signs sayin behead all Islam insulters is free expression also.. How many of those Muslims actually beheaded someone?

It would be an incitement to violence.

On the other hand, if you are a Muslim, you do seem to be allowed to carry signs saying behead those who insult Islam with impunity in Western countries.

Originally posted by DarknStormy

Making signs sayin behead all Islam insulters is free expression also.. How many of those Muslims actually beheaded someone?

There's a threshold? So 3 would be okay, but 4 is cause for panic?


Look, Catholics think abortion is a sin. So someone shouldn't be prosecuted for killing an abortion doctor because of his/her religious beliefs?

I mean, really, how many abortion doctors actually die?

In general people should not be insulting each other. But as soon as a religion considers murder an acceptable punishment for an insult... They are taking the low low ground and deserve to be called out on their primitive behavior. To fear their wrath is to give in to the definition of terrorism.

Muslims need to get over the bloodlust aspect of their religion. Stoning a woman to death in public where everyone can join in. That's bloodlust. And if its an example of Muslim enlightenment, it's a retarded belief system.

reply to post by ollncasino


come now, you know that freedom of speech is not a uk thing - people have been jailed for facebook comments for example, shouting racist remarks, prosecuted for foul language etc etc... words can get you into trouble here too.

regarding the pianist you mentioned

Thursday’s court hearing was adjourned until February 18 and the musician was granted the right not to appear at subsequent court hearings due to his concert schedules

from your link
www.france24.com...
while i feel he should not stand trial for this, he seems overall not so worried

Turkey is clearly experiencing problems with islamists, and a wonderful country as it is, superb hosts though the turkish people are... these kind of issues are nothing new.... you used to be able to be imprisoned under the previous secular governments for insulting Kemal Attaturk or defacing his image

so is the issue really the religion that people claim to follow (often badly, whether christian, buddhist etc etc) or some of the cultural/national traditions of their homelands?

Originally posted by skalla

come now, you know that freedom of speech is not a uk thing - people have been jailed for facebook comments for example, shouting racist remarks, prosecuted for foul language etc etc... words can get you into trouble here too.

Oh, absolutely. Political correctness is being enforced by the power of law in the UK. My comments were in reference to antisemitism (holocaust denial) laws.

I don't pretend that their is full freedom of speech in the UK but I do know I have never written anything on ATS that would constitute a criminal offense in the UK (Malicious Communications Act 1988, Communications Act 2003, the Public Order Act 1986 and the Crime and Disorder Act 1998).

In a Muslim country, many of my post would however constitute blasphemy and put me, along with a large number of other ATS members, in prison.

Originally posted by skalla
Turkey is clearly experiencing problems with islamists, and a wonderful country as it is, superb hosts though the turkish people are... these kind of issues are nothing new.... you used to be able to be imprisoned under the previous secular governments for insulting Kemal Attaturk or defacing his image

The Turkish army has had to stage coups 4 times since World War II to stop Islamic extremists taking power. The secular laws are designed to keep the Islamist down, although not too successfully at the moment.

The current Turkish PM was imprisoned for reciting a poem which stated:

'The Muslim world is waiting for Turkey to rise up. We will rise up! With Allah's permission, the rebellion will start.'

and

'The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers.'

Turkey has managed to stay moderate for so long because the laws and the army keep the hardcore Muslims down. Now the Islamic government is arresting army generals.

Turkish Military Officers Jailed for Erdogan Coup Plot

reply to post by ollncasino


so is the issue the religion (badly practiced) or some of the cultural traditions of certain places?

ETA: political correctness is not the driving force re non freedom of speech in the uk, it is obviously far far older than that

reply to post by skalla


I like your comedic counter point. Now we just need all accounts of stoning to be left to distant history and films that mock the practice

reply to post by spiritualzombie


indeed, the only time that people should be stoned is in the privacy of their own homes when they have no responsibilities to take care of, it's very simple really.

Originally posted by skalla
so is the issue the religion (badly practiced) or some of the cultural traditions of certain places?

I can see your point of view.

It does appear that the Turkish army views Islam as a threat to democracy, having staged 4 coups since WWII to prevent an Islamist takeover.

In light of the current Islamist PM stating "Democracy is a train, from which you could alight once you reached your destination" (Link) they may not be far wrong.

I would feel safer with a secular army maintaining democracy than a Islamic state where people get prosecuted for twitters that insult Islam. There seems to be little in between.

reply to post by beezzer


As much as I can see what your getting at, I think people don't understand how much their religion means to them.. We will never get it unfortunetly and its better to respect their religion that incite tension. Back in the 50s-60s when ever it was, Black people were called the n-word etc.. We will never know how thats feels or offends because we are white people, yeah they may call us cracker etc but we deal with it.. To them its degrading and why should it be any different when it comes to another cultures religion?

I'm all for free speech but there is also a cut off point and we are seeing this being applied to homosexuals, why can't we just leave Islam alone also? Yes there are some bad eggs, the same in the west, but that doesn't mean every Muslim is looking to blow us up or chop our body parts off.. Some people are attacking an entire religion, how can people see nothing wrong with that?

Originally posted by ollncasino
I can see your point of view.

It does appear that the Turkish army views Islam as a threat to democracy, having staged 4 coups since WWII to prevent an Islamist takeover.

The Turkish people are a different story. The are not happy with their government especially when it comes to Syria.