Hugo Chavez: The War On Demcracy

reply to post by ipsedixit


Bush was half a decade ago. The policies still in place and the new ones now belong to Obama.

I do not speak for the moving industry. I speak for the grown up people industry.

Living in a western country and singing the praises of Chavez, is the same as praising the benefits of prison life without being inside. Live it or love it, you can't do both.

Originally posted by 200Plus
reply to post by ipsedixit

 

Living in a western country and singing the praises of Chavez, is the same as praising the benefits of prison life without being inside.

Utter nonsense.

Live it or love it, you can't do both.

Are you having a brain cramp?

OP sorry to derail, it wasn't my intention.

Chavez wanted to help the citizens of his country right? Did he enjoy a lifestyle on par with his subjects? Was his home/income 100 times that of his lowest peon? Or was it the same as America? He was a smart man that got what he wanted. I do not agree with his policy, but I have to admire his tactics. He made himself a celebrity and a multi-millionaire. You people demonize your own for trying the same thing, all the while praising Chavez.

reply to post by ipsedixit


I am curious. Do you pay your bills every month and give the remains to people with less money? Or do you want to keep what you earn?

Or like most western bashing western people, do you want to keep what you earn and get some of what other people earn as well?

Originally posted by 200Plus
OP sorry to derail, it wasn't my intention.

Chavez wanted to help the citizens of his country right? Did he enjoy a lifestyle on par with his subjects? Was his home/income 100 times that of his lowest peon? Or was it the same as America? He was a smart man that got what he wanted. I do not agree with his policy, but I have to admire his tactics. He made himself a celebrity and a multi-millionaire. You people demonize your own for trying the same thing, all the while praising Chavez.

reply to post by ipsedixit

 

I am curious. Do you pay your bills every month and give the remains to people with less money? Or do you want to keep what you earn?

Or like most western bashing western people, do you want to keep what you earn and get some of what other people earn as well?

God bless you!

2nd line.

Originally posted by 200Plus

I am curious. Do you pay your bills every month and give the remains to people with less money? Or do you want to keep what you earn?

If you knew anything about earning money you would know western people are obliged by LAW to give a portion of their earnings to others in need or to better the community. It is called TAXES. Most people are reasonable and don't mind giving a portion.

Problem is only a small amount goes to the poor and infrastructure etc, which is what people have signed up for. The rest of the money goes to support and extravagant salary of people who collect taxes. Or to military top secret flying objects. Or in my case to a Queen and her offspring so they can relax and do nothing. Or fraudulent private banks who were on a verge of bankrupt. Or you name it and it goes there but it doesn't go where it was supposed to.

Another problem is when they are out of money, they just raise the taxes which is also not what we signed up for.

reply to post by Exitt


Taxes go to a lot of things. Some I agree with and some I do not.

My typical budget (monthly):

Income - $5200

Taxes - $1970

Bills (rent, car, insurance) - $1125

Requirements (food, gas) - $350

That leaves me with $1750 a month as disposable income. Communists think I have too much and should give that remainder away (I do give most of it to help support my mother and sister). However, I am not willing to give a portion of my remainder to people that do not work. I know it makes me evil and I am OK with that. A portion of my income goes to the people on support (taxes), and a portion goes to people I choose (charity). My money my, my choice.

I never cared for the guy. I always thought he was just another snake in the grass politician. Which I still believe. Sure, he did some things I agree with. Which politician doesn't? But I have also heard a lot of crooked stuff he did behind closed doors. Like a true politician. Don't be fooled by just another wolf in sheep's clothing.

Good thing he's dead now. But sadly another crooked SOB will take his place and continue to fool people on the outside in to thinking he's a progressive revolutionary. And like morons, the western world will fall for it.

Lots of support for Chavez on this thread! I know many people on ATS support him because he stood up against our European/American powers. However, I dated a girl with a father directly from Venezuela and was told never to mention Chavez' name. Apparently he shut down water supplies to his own people, amongst other things.

Can't confirm this officially or elaborate anymore but its something to keep in mind.

I personally was researching what I would need to do to attend University in Venezuela for a year to see what it is truly like.

Originally posted by 200Plus
Communists think I have too much and should give that remainder away (I do give most of it to help support my mother and sister). However, I am not willing to give a portion of my remainder to people that do not work. I know it makes me evil and I am OK with that.

This is where you're mistaken, communists wouldn't allow you the remainder AND make all people work. Meaning planting trees or build vacant buildings till you die.

Another mistake is to talk about communists on a Hugo Chavez thread, a one of a kind socialist democrat who made up his own social economic model, taking advantage of natural resources and taking capital into consideration.

I don't think that makes you evil.

reply to post by Exitt


No. Maybe not evil. Just your usual greedy, sneaky, back-stabbing politician that's looking out for #1 first and foremost. The people be damned, Hugo needs his cheddar.

reply to post by Exitt


You make a distinction between paper communism and real world communism.

Paper communism is the one "most" people agree with and has almost nothing but positive aspects.

Real world communism is the one "smart" people fight against with a passion and is simply mass slavery.

Nationalization (as done by Chavez), and his continuous praise of communists is why I use that word here. I do not know his actual politics and I doubt many do. Like most men in power it was a hybrid.

It always reminds me of the cartoons from my youth, when bugs bunny would "share things.

one for you
one for me

two for you
one, two for me

three for you
one, two, three for me

Originally posted by kyle43
Lots of support for Chavez on this thread! I know many people on ATS support him because he stood up against our European/American powers. However, I dated a girl with a father directly from Venezuela and was told never to mention Chavez' name. Apparently he shut down water supplies to his own people, amongst other things.

Can't confirm this officially or elaborate anymore but its something to keep in mind.

I personally was researching what I would need to do to attend University in Venezuela for a year to see what it is truly like.

The plastic Venezuelans in America are completely out of touch with Venezuela and actual Venezuelans who live in Venezuela, by all accounts.

It's funny to me that every negative comment from a Venezuelan about Chavez is all coming from the mighty US of A

And most these Venezuelans in America who are experts on Chavez have never lived in Venezuela in the first place!

Originally posted by 200Plus
reply to post by Exitt

 

You make a distinction between paper communism and real world communism.

Paper communism is the one "most" people agree with and has almost nothing but positive aspects.

Real world communism is the one "smart" people fight against with a passion and is simply mass slavery.

I already had a similar discussion and we cannot discuss or distinct anything until you read a book or two. Or three, one about modern societies&culture, one about political models and one about economic systems.

So what part of food shortages of staple items inside the Captial City....20-28% inflation rates...and the general collapse of foreign investment and capital development in Venezuela are we praising? He took one of the better economies in the Western Hemisphere and left it among the very worst. Exactly where in this picture did he earn praise or respect?

Now we find he raped his nation to the tune of 2 Billion Dollars in personal fortunes. Sounds typical.... Most scumbag dictators do line their own pockets. I'm just surprised he still had it so easy to find when he knew he was dying anyway. I'd have thought he'd disperse it.... Dictators used to care about legacy but I guess selfishness has left even that concern a distant one.

I'm just at a loss here... I can see the "accomplishments" by sociliast yardstick that he achieved. He socialized or nationalized (By armed force) most major industry in his nation. He set price controls and subsidy levels for basic consumer goods which made them cheap (when supplies existed at all..which was a hit and miss thing, even in Caracas) and he sure made the right friends. Cuba, Iran, Lebanon, Syria and Russia. Yes indeed... His Rolodex looked like the who's who of aspiring and well established people of like mind.

So.... Where again is something we're supposed to respect or appreciate? The RAW numbers show he ran his people and nation into the ground.....and some people cheer it. I'll never understand the slavery of loyalty to a political dogma. It really is scary at times.

Originally posted by Tw0Sides
Wow
Reading the written Responses, it is a real surprise to me.
I feel like I was alone on this site, Like a Silent Cheerleader for Chavez. I related to a lot of what he said, and did, and a Lot of times on this Site, That was the wrong side of the Arguement to be on.
So , RIP, and I feel a tad better about the other members on this site.
A Silver Lining for Sure.

Yes, praise Hugo and his most dedicated follower Obama.

Like you say, maybe there is still hope for people on ATS.

reply to post by GrandStrategy

The plastic Venezuelans in America are completely out of touch with Venezuela and actual Venezuelans who live in Venezuela, by all accounts.

I would like to first point out I never said anything negative.

Second, are you an actual Venezuelan? I'd like for you to elaborate on "out of touch, by all accounts" as well. The Venezuelan who I got this information from has only been the country for ~15 years and talks on the phone to his family in Venezuela daily.

If you are Venezuelan living there, I'm very interested in what its like!

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

So.... Where again is something we're supposed to respect or appreciate? The RAW numbers show he ran his people and nation into the ground.....and some people cheer it.

Since you've asked and because i like Wrabbits in general

How about one million people who got their first ever identification paper with their name and birth date and such. I think they felt like a million bucks that day. Or ..

During the past decade under Chavez, the income poverty rate in Venezuela dropped by more than half, from 54% of households below poverty level in the first half of 2003, down to 26% at the end of 2008. "Extreme poverty" fell even more - by 72%. Further, "these poverty rates measure only cash income, and doesn't take into account increased access to health care or education

Venezuelan government created Mission Mercal -- a chain of state-owned grocery stores, selling staple foods at 39% below market value, and which tries to buy 40% of all of its products from small or medium sized domestic producers. Additionally, the government created 6,000 mobile soup kitchens, which together with Mercal, comprise 22% of national food distribution

For example, in exchange for discounted Venezuelan oil (which Cuba needs due to the U.S. embargo), Cuba (which has a relatively well-developed system of medical care) has provided Venezuela with thousands of doctors and teachers, who provide healthcare and education to Venezuela's poor

As part of its "Miracle Mission" program, the Venezuela and Cuban governments collaborated to perform free eye care to over 1,139,798 people, with an average of 5,000 operations occurring on a weekly basis in 74 medical centers around Venezuela, as of July 2010. Several thousand people from other Latin American nations—including Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Costa Rica, Chile, the Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Paraguay, Peru, and Uruguay—were also given free treatment under the program

The government created an extensive micro-credit program, targeted towards the poor, with a goal of enabling them to start their own small businesses. Several micro-credit banks were created, including Banco del Pueblo (People's Bank), Banco de la Mujer (Women's Bank), and the Fondo de Desarollo Microfinanciero (Fund for Micro-Finance Development, "Fondemi"). Additionally, banking laws passed in 2001 require that all banks set aside at least 3% of their capital for micro-loans

Rail transport in Venezuela has been practically non-existent since the 1950s (with only one line operating), but the IAFE is currently working on several lines, hopefully connecting most of Venezuela via railway by 2020, which, if achieved, would lead to a significant improvement in the countries' transport infrastructure.

Chávez announced Venezuela's withdrawal from the International Monetary Fund and World Bank after paying back all his country's debts to both institutions

Hugo Chavez is not a saint but please do give credit where credit is due!!

Ajax operation all again?
was it napoleon Sarkozy ? or another vaticanassassins?
this is very very bad news.they kill anyone who wish to keep it's assets to himself.
he was the first one (but a week after me lol) to c that Haiti EQ was man made.
maybe thats y they killed him.
in my country everybody happy.

Democracy, what's that? Is that when Hollywood movie actors are on the most important political functions in Serbia, under the reserve identity? That? Wow!

reply to post by Exitt

Okay.... You literally have me stumped with nowhere left to go. lol..... That's rare!

I bring food shortages, commodity supply problems, 20-28% inflation rates and a ruined economy he didn't have when he started .... and you bring people getting an ID as the counter. Okay... People got an ID. He's far more effective than even our OWN politicians (Since the whole reason we can't have ID at a voting booth is supposedly because we can't get our citizens each an ID card).

On this..for you, I think agreeing to disagree is the best policy. By a past thread, I know you are singular and dedicated in your support for Hugo Chavez and his ilk. Personally, I'd have considered it a good day if his people had drug him into the street and shot him in the head for the world to see. We have RADICALLY different views that have NO middle ground for Chavez, Ortega, Morales and others currently running socialist fiefdoms in South/Central America.

Without common ground and as far apart as we are on this guy as a man in general? I don't suppose there is much to do but agree to disagee.