Hugo Chavez: The War On Demcracy

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Yes Wrabbit, I'm sure Chavez really did anger the wealthy land and business owners. However the "numbers" you mention look a lot better for average Venezuelans. There is no man or woman in power who is a saint or "without sin" I guess you'd say. But I'll line up behind a man who supports his people over the ruling oligarchy of the west any day of the week. Anyone who tells the US where they can stick their imperialism is fine by me.

Some people agree with the western financial and political goals and ideals, and some people see through the propaganda.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


We're wondering why it seems the U.S. is going to hell...

We wonder why the country refuses to get any better. It's because we don't have the sac to do what it takes. It will make too many people uncomfortable and it will make what many have brought into obsolete.

What Chavez did is what many in America wish our politicians will do. He stood up for his people and country against the globalized economy and bankers. He basically said his people will either ALL be able to live at the least decent or none of them would.

He broke up the Oligarchy which is rotting the U.S. before it did this to his country. For this, the U.S. and everyone else in bed with the U.S. hated him. We tend to hate and demonize everyone who doesn't go along with our system because....our system is the only way right?

Chavez believed that no person or corporation should have ownership of natural resources because they belong to EVERYONE. This is in direct conflict with what the U.S. practices.

Now many Americans will fight this philosophy because it is so alien to us. We have been taught to work hard, achieve your dreams and own what you earn...dayum everyone else. And many of us LOVE this. The question though, is this right? Is this the best route? Do we truly want the philosophy that "We keep what we kill" to dominate our society?

No doubt Chavez wasn't crispy, clean either and probably stole money, but his philosophy was headed in the right direction. He also fell victim to human temptation.

Those who talk to Venezualians who left, of course they hate him. He basically told them that they WILL NOT despise, look down and victimize their fellow countryman just to make themselves rich. He told them that they will not get to live the "American" dream in Venezuela. They will not treat their fellow countrymen as the rich do us in America.

He made himself a life time President because sometimes that's the only way you can get something done. If you leave it open to democracy, the abundant, evil, driven, politicians will ALWAYS find a way to get themselves and their buddies in position so that it really isn't a democracy anymore....it will just appear to be.

So where we are is that democracy isn't the answer and perhaps Chavez' socialism isn't either. We need a NEW system which removes the weakness of each system.

reply to post by mekhanics


He was more OPEC...

Indeed....

The last two American Leaders are responsible for more deaths than all of these South American "Dictators" put together.


Most Americans (and most people) are too stupid to realise WHY these leaders in other countries are Demonized....it's not because they're bad, or evil, or terrorists... or evil communists or socialists.... it's because they said NO!!!

No to Central Banks.... no to America and the West's profit before people mentality and they dared to speak out against the powers of the West.


The War on Democracy is a great documentary..


As is


The War You Don't See

Sadly after a quick search it seems that almost all copies of The War You Don't See has been taken down... it doesn't surprise me, that one really hurt the government I'm sure.

If you can find it... WATCH IT!!


I downloaded it ages ago... so may be able to upload to somewhere if anyone wants.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Exitt

 

Okay.... You literally have me stumped with nowhere left to go. lol..... That's rare!

I bring food shortages, commodity supply problems, 20-28% inflation rates and a ruined economy he didn't have when he started .... and you bring people getting an ID as the counter. Okay... People got an ID. He's far more effective than even our OWN politicians (Since the whole reason we can't have ID at a voting booth is supposedly because we can't get our citizens each an ID card).

On this..for you, I think agreeing to disagree is the best policy. By a past thread, I know you are singular and dedicated in your support for Hugo Chavez and his ilk. Personally, I'd have considered it a good day if his people had drug him into the street and shot him in the head for the world to see. We have RADICALLY different views that have NO middle ground for Chavez, Ortega, Morales and others currently running socialist fiefdoms in South/Central America.

Without common ground and as far apart as we are on this guy as a man in general? I don't suppose there is much to do but agree to disagee.

What you are mentioning about inflation and the such are not the goal of Chavez, rather they are the results of America and our allies attempting to make him and his country look as bad as possible because they won't play our game. They place higher tariffs on Venezuelian imports to make the prices there obscenely high.

Originally posted by 200Plus
reply to post by shepseskaf

 

I am not a bit surprised by either the thread or it's content.

Chavez is dead and I mourn his passing.

This board is populated by people who denounce western culture, yet live under the rights and protections that culture provides. How many of you here, those that praise Chavez, moved to his country and enjoyed his attempted utopia?

None?

Why not?

I do not live there because I live here. This is my country and as we were taught by the Founding Fathers it is our duty to stand up and speak out against corruption and government tyranny wherever we find it. (I'm not saying our government is tyrannical, it is actually an oligarchy with decidedly fascist leanings.)

I choose to be here to work to change the system in place now so that my grandchildren will inherit a better homeland. One where a person working full time earns a living wage, where anyone can afford to go to university, where health care is right not a privilege for the wealthy few, where elders do not have to choose between food or heat, where air and water are precious and protected. That is why I am here.

If I had been born in Venezuela I would like to think I would be equally as outspoken against the wrongs that the government there committed. And as we have seen in the past few years, here in the land of the free, protesting can be dangerous no matter where you are. For those of us on the side of the Citizenry, the People, we are willing to take that risk, as we would in Venezuela or any other nation we called home; even here in the US where it has been recently disclosed that a US citizen can legally be stalked and murdered...excuse me, executed by predator drones within our borders.

John Pilger... say no more, will definitely give this a watch. Thanks OP, always knew Chavez wasn't the bad guy he was made out to be.

John Pilger is an absolutely first rate documentary film maker who tackles and exposes subjects few others ever care to or dare to.
The War on Democracy is among his best imho and is something that should be required watching for all members who join ATS, along with Adam Curtis's 'The Power Of Nightmares'.
Some of the threads where people are bashing Chavez and every other 'crazed' Anti-American leader, are full of people who were defending and cheering George Bush as America & allies crippled the infrastructure of a couple of middle eastern countries and murdered about a million people.

Hypocrisy at its finest!!

Originally posted by 200Plus
OP sorry to derail, it wasn't my intention.

Chavez wanted to help the citizens of his country right? Did he enjoy a lifestyle on par with his subjects? Was his home/income 100 times that of his lowest peon? Or was it the same as America? He was a smart man that got what he wanted. I do not agree with his policy, but I have to admire his tactics. He made himself a celebrity and a multi-millionaire. You people demonize your own for trying the same thing, all the while praising Chavez.

reply to post by ipsedixit

 

I am curious. Do you pay your bills every month and give the remains to people with less money? Or do you want to keep what you earn?

Or like most western bashing western people, do you want to keep what you earn and get some of what other people earn as well?

I pay my bills every month, take what is left over (not damn much) and put a small bit into an emergency fund, the rest of it goes to animal rescue, the local food pantry and helping out those I come across who are in worse conditions than myself. (and I ain't no great shakes baby) My actions are not that uncommon. Actually I know quite a few people who do similar; we try to live an altruistic life.

I'm sorry you hang out with the other kind of folks.

Originally posted by Malynn
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Yes Wrabbit, I'm sure Chavez really did anger the wealthy land and business owners. However the "numbers" you mention look a lot better for average Venezuelans. There is no man or woman in power who is a saint or "without sin" I guess you'd say. But I'll line up behind a man who supports his people over the ruling oligarchy of the west any day of the week. Anyone who tells the US where they can stick their imperialism is fine by me.

Some people agree with the western financial and political goals and ideals, and some people see through the propaganda.

Propaganda is saying the leader of a failing and (in some ways) outright failed nation was anything but a failure. Propaganda is looking at 20-28% inflation rates for the general public and actually saying, with a straight face, that is only a rich problem.

When basic items for daily life are spiking at 20+ % rates..and have been for multiple YEARS? That isn't a rich problem, that is everyone's problem and Hugo Chavez WAS the problem. Agree to disagree though...

Originally posted by DZAG Wright

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Exitt

 

Okay.... You literally have me stumped with nowhere left to go. lol..... That's rare!

I bring food shortages, commodity supply problems, 20-28% inflation rates and a ruined economy he didn't have when he started .... and you bring people getting an ID as the counter. Okay... People got an ID. He's far more effective than even our OWN politicians (Since the whole reason we can't have ID at a voting booth is supposedly because we can't get our citizens each an ID card).

On this..for you, I think agreeing to disagree is the best policy. By a past thread, I know you are singular and dedicated in your support for Hugo Chavez and his ilk. Personally, I'd have considered it a good day if his people had drug him into the street and shot him in the head for the world to see. We have RADICALLY different views that have NO middle ground for Chavez, Ortega, Morales and others currently running socialist fiefdoms in South/Central America.

Without common ground and as far apart as we are on this guy as a man in general? I don't suppose there is much to do but agree to disagee.

What you are mentioning about inflation and the such are not the goal of Chavez, rather they are the results of America and our allies attempting to make him and his country look as bad as possible because they won't play our game. They place higher tariffs on Venezuelan imports to make the prices there obscenely high.

Oh I see... so like Obama in the U.S....Everything is the fault of someone else? Chavez ran his nation for 10+ years and the economic failure is ...America's fault? Yeah... Well, hopefully then they get someone who can see past being such a victim of Barack Obama. After all, Obama HAS been the face of American policy for going into 5 years now. Hugo has kept running his nation into the ground for all those years.

So... Who is to blame? Chavez or Obama? I LOVE the catch 22 your effort to excuse Chavez's leadership failures put this in. ONE of the two has blame here ....by your very clear and simple point. Which one?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


How dare you speak of such a great man with such disdain. Using "facts" to make this man out to be a terrible leader. Venezuela is the best country in the world right now because of him! You're just jealous because Venezuela is 100 times better than your evil corporate America! Stop trying to use "logic" to smear this great man's name. His legacy will live on forever.

I for on will be abandoning my life in America to go live in Venezuela because Hugo made it the greatest place in earth to live!

reply to post by Echo3Foxtrot

I'll leave the personal stuff off and ask just one thing here. One should be sufficient.

Please support with data, beyond opinions, where Venezuela was superior to the United States in any way or form? I'm not saying there won't be any, either. There probably are a few categories. I'm not aware of them...but then I didn't just state there were 100 of them, either. Some support to such a generalized statement would be appreciated.

Unlike Venezuela, I live in a free nation where I can speak my mind. I can even wear camouflage without going to prison (One of his many laws down there). That means I can 'dare say' anything I choose to...and in this case, I do happen to believe Chavez ranks among the worse leaders South America has has to suffer in recent times. Not the worst...but one of them, to be sure. I even have facts, figures and hard numbers to support the assertion.

In the long history of Dictators Chavez was small time. He never commanded fleets of Drones to spy on his citizens, He never created a National Police Force the size of DHS. Although he controlled via a Dictatorship he did not have to do so while at the same time circumventing a Constitution in order to do so. In other words "our" Dictator is still #1. Yeah?.

reply to post by mekhanics

Alex Jones was mocking Hugo Chavez as the death of a communist yesterday, that was pretty much shameful.

Now the world is a little more dangerous and sad than before !

Rest in peace Hugo !

I guess this is a democracy?


Or 5000 workers shot by shooting squad in Petrograd, 1905? And sailors hung on boats?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


What? Back it up with data? I don't need to back anything up. His legacy speaks for itself. Look at all the people here posting in support of the greatest leader to ever grace this world who turned his country in to the greatest kn the world. All you have to do is read posts in this thread and other threads like it to believe it. You're just shared of change.

Anyone else want to abandon the sinking ship that is America and move to Venezuela where the greatest man who ever lived and lead created a utopia of true freedom?!

Sequestration caused me to double post. Thanks Obama.

Originally posted by Echo3Foxtrot
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

What? Back it up with data? I don't need to back anything up. His legacy speaks for itself. Look at all the people here posting in support of the greatest leader to ever grace this world who turned his country in to the greatest kn the world. All you have to do is read posts in this thread and other threads like it to believe it. You're just shared of change.

Anyone else want to abandon the sinking ship that is America and move to Venezuela where the greatest man who ever lived and lead created a utopia of true freedom?!

I'm pretty sure you're being sarcastic, your posts seem extremely sarcastic.
Shame wrabbit can't see it, it's blatantly obvious though.
Your posts are so ridiculous that you have to be just being sarcastic, ironic and facetious.