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Hugo Chavez: The War On Demcracy

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posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

I bring food shortages, commodity supply problems, 20-28% inflation rates and a ruined economy he didn't have when he started .... and you bring people getting an ID as the counter. Okay... People got an ID. He's far more effective than even our OWN politicians (Since the whole reason we can't have ID at a voting booth is supposedly because we can't get our citizens each an ID card).

We have RADICALLY different views that have NO middle ground for Chavez, Ortega, Morales and others currently running socialist fiefdoms in South/Central America.


Nope, i actually brought up 8 different reforms he made and four of those are contradicting your 'facts' but you conveniently picked just one out of the bunch. That one may not seem 'special' to you but to people without identity for centuries, that one means more than money.

However I do think you've seen all 8 of them. That is why i am completely and utterly confused when you say "I'd have considered it a good day if his people had drug him into the street and shot him in the head"
because after reading extremely positive social reforms those people have experienced with Chavez ... why would they want such a thing??

That might be your opinion, but those people are collectively mourning and crying right now (see youtube or msm) don't you have any respect for their opinion?




posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 12:58 PM
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reply to post by Exitt
 


Wabbit has always hated anything socialist he has admitted on this site.
Don't worry dude we still love you

At the end of the day he was voted in many times by his people, the majority of his people loved him, it doesn't matter what we westerners think it is his peoples thoughts on the subject which do.
edit on 6-3-2013 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 01:00 PM
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reply to post by Echo3Foxtrot
 


I see what ya did there..... Okay, my bad. I missed the sarcasm entirely. Err..... I do feel like an idiot now. There are enough people who really would have posted (and do... daily) what you did and mean every last word of it. It kinda got my fur up before considering it enough to see the other meaning to it.

Err... My bad. (holds paw out to slap)



posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 01:04 PM
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reply to post by stargatetravels
 


Sarcasm? No way! Hugo was a revolutionary hero! Down with capitalism! Down with democracy! I want to live in the land of the free! A land Hugo built with his own hands!

Yeah, you got it. Sarcasm. Hugo was great? He made Venezuela a great place? He hates the US and it's ways? Cool. Why not leave the land of democracy and capitalism to live there? I'm sure Hugo's VP will continue his vision. Save up your money, quit your job, tell all your friends and family goodbye, sell your possessions and move to a place that has nothing of the evil America offers.



posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 01:13 PM
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reply to post by Echo3Foxtrot
 



It makes sense that few got your sarcasm, usually the conservative mind has issues with things like humor, sarcasm and such. It just shows how tightly wound ya'll are.

And no, I'd rather live in America 'dood' !!

They're much more honest about screwing over the little guy and protecting the rich, big business and big pharma, I'd much rather that.
I'd much prefer to watch people lose their homes and die trying to pay for a basic human right - healthcare- than move somewhere where everyone is looked after.
Whatever next, social housing?? Nationalized infrastructure companies? Low taxes and cheap fuel and heating and gas?? No siree, I want to support big business and pay through the nose for my household bills, I want to choose between which finger I have to have removed and which child I want inoculated and which elderly relative gets the chemo treatment.

Yep, good 'ole US of A every time for me
edit on 6-3-2013 by stargatetravels because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 01:23 PM
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Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Originally posted by DZAG Wright

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Exitt
 

Okay.... You literally have me stumped with nowhere left to go. lol..... That's rare!

I bring food shortages, commodity supply problems, 20-28% inflation rates and a ruined economy he didn't have when he started .... and you bring people getting an ID as the counter. Okay... People got an ID. He's far more effective than even our OWN politicians (Since the whole reason we can't have ID at a voting booth is supposedly because we can't get our citizens each an ID card).

On this..for you, I think agreeing to disagree is the best policy. By a past thread, I know you are singular and dedicated in your support for Hugo Chavez and his ilk. Personally, I'd have considered it a good day if his people had drug him into the street and shot him in the head for the world to see. We have RADICALLY different views that have NO middle ground for Chavez, Ortega, Morales and others currently running socialist fiefdoms in South/Central America.

Without common ground and as far apart as we are on this guy as a man in general? I don't suppose there is much to do but agree to disagee.





What you are mentioning about inflation and the such are not the goal of Chavez, rather they are the results of America and our allies attempting to make him and his country look as bad as possible because they won't play our game. They place higher tariffs on Venezuelan imports to make the prices there obscenely high.


Oh I see... so like Obama in the U.S....Everything is the fault of someone else? Chavez ran his nation for 10+ years and the economic failure is ...America's fault? Yeah... Well, hopefully then they get someone who can see past being such a victim of Barack Obama. After all, Obama HAS been the face of American policy for going into 5 years now. Hugo has kept running his nation into the ground for all those years.

So... Who is to blame? Chavez or Obama? I LOVE the catch 22 your effort to excuse Chavez's leadership failures put this in. ONE of the two has blame here ....by your very clear and simple point. Which one?




Well, there's this thing we have going on called a Global Economy...ya with me? Basically, every nation is connected, well just about. There are a few nations who are holding out due to leaders such as Chavez.

Now what happens is that countries who are holding out from joining this association such as Venezuala, Cuba, etc., are blackballed and have to pay more for stuff we get rather cheaply as a punishment for not caving in and playing nice. So everything they have to import will cost them more than it costs us or Britian, etc.

Due to Venezuala seeing the American brand of Democracy for what it is, a sham and crook run, our propaganda machine will make sure they are forever demonized and a black sheep. Same thing happened with Cuba. Cuba was America's playground until Castro said enough, and kicked all the Corporations and elite off his island. The result, people who don't research think Castro is the most evil person in the world. When in reality he was standing up for his people.

Now I haven't followed your posting patterns, but I'd take a wager that you have a distaste for our politicians and feel as though they've sold the American people out? Then you turn around and criticize a leader who does stand up for his people? So which is it you're down with?

Oh, and the answer to your question, the blame doesn't belong to Chavez or Obama. The policies Chavez were fighting were in effect looonnnnngggg before Obama and in fact Obama couldn't change them if he wanted too.



posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 01:28 PM
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reply to post by stargatetravels
 


Well, when you put it like that, anywhere else looks pretty damn good.

But really, the point is why would you hate so vehemently the place you live and not go elsewhere? I'm not saying I agree with everything and I've considered moving out of country many times. Almost did it back in 2011. Was working out a deal for a house in Japan. Even had some work lined up. Personal reasons kept me from doing it. That and I'm not just going to give up on my country and run.

Was Hugo a great man? I say no. I thought he was just another snake in the grass politician who did just enough to turn eyes away from his own corruption. And when people revere him because he was anti-America, it makes me wonder why. Did he do some good things for his people, facts point to yes. Did he do a lot of other crap that people will turn a blind eye to because of what he stood for? Yes. Quite the double standard.

In the end all this talking about what is wrong with America needs to lead to something. Until people start speaking up in mass, they will continue to do their thing. Hugo was a politician. He was just as crooked as the ones we have here.



posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 01:37 PM
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RIP Chavez. He certainly gave us something to talk about.

To all the Chavez worshippers, just a little reality check. Not everyone is taken in by the Chavez PR machine which conveniently overlooks Chavez’ deviations and general erosion of human rights. Do people like him because of his jingoistic rants against the West? Surely not.



President Hugo Chávez, who governed Venezuela for 14 years, was elected to another six-year term in October 2012. He died in March 2013. During his presidency, the accumulation of power in the executive branch and the erosion of human rights guarantees enabled his government to intimidate, censor, and prosecute Venezuelans who criticized the president or thwarted his political agenda. President Chávez and his supporters used their powers in a wide range of cases involving the judiciary, the media, and human rights defenders. Prison violence and police abuse remain serious problems.


www.hrw.org...

www.amnesty.org...

Regards



posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 01:40 PM
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Originally posted by GrandStrategy


And most these Venezuelans in America who are experts on Chavez have never lived in Venezuela in the first place!




prove it.



posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 01:48 PM
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Hugo Chavez would constantly rigg his elections. He really isn't any different than any corrupt politician in America. Many people here are stating that he's a great leader because he fixed Venezuela's poverty rate. While that is true, he forcibly kicked out the rich away from Venezuela and then gave money to the poor. A part from that, he also gave the poor electronics and arms thus buying his vote from the poor and having them be on his side. If you go to Caracas the mountain is filled with little ranchos and poverty is still pretty bad

He has taken a majority of farm land away from its farmers. My friend's grandfather owned farm land in Venezuela that he had to give away to Chavez and his soldiers. It has been invaded for the last couple of years and they won't leave, and he cannot do anything about it.

I dunno, you guys gave good points but I'm still not convinced that he was a great leader by any means. That's like saying Castro is a great leader when he's really not. I've been to Cuba. It's a #hole right now.



posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 01:54 PM
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reply to post by DZAG Wright
 


The reality is that Castro ISN'T standing up for his people. Cuba has a pretty terrible economy. I was there last year. There's potholes everywhere. The electricity goes on and off throughout the day and some days it just stops. People stop working at 3 PM because they don't give a # or don't have any kind of electricity. You have starving Cubans begging for food and then going to jail for doing so in front of handheld camera. He's against his people. That's the reality



posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 02:00 PM
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reply to post by 33055
 


Lies complete lies the OAS and the Carter center have both said the elections were free and legitimate.



posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 02:01 PM
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reply to post by DZAG Wright
 

Yes, we both dislike American politicians. To an extreme. Yes they have sold us out. The difference is that you see Chavez as something better and I don't. One set has sold Americans out on the alter of "democracy" as they call this warped thing we have now.

Chavez sold his people out on the alter of Socialism and a People's Paradise.

The populations of both nations got sold out. I don't appreciate the difference as some do.



posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 02:06 PM
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Reading a gaming article the other day and there was some comments from someone in Venezuela. This in my opinion is a great candid example of how an average citizen feels while not even on the subject of real politics.

Someone just asked him how life is there after he talked about why he has to pirate games.

kotaku.com...
edit on 3/6/2013 by ashtonhz8907 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 02:08 PM
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Wow at some of the responses. You'd think we were talking about Jesus Christ and NOT a man who stole $2 billion from his own people and made every television station play his rants/propaganda that lasted hours....We're talking about a dictator, a man who destroyed Venezuala, and intentionally silenced those who spoke out against him with violence and prison sentences. R.I.P??? Are you kidding me?! I'm glad the man is dead, he's just another world class dictatorial a**hole that the world is far better off without having.



posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 02:13 PM
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Venezuela - an oil rich nation which in recent years has seen everyone suffer persistent and extensive power cuts due to the country's inability to generate reliable electricity.

So what happened to all that oil money?



posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 02:14 PM
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Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by 33055
 


Lies complete lies the OAS and the Carter center have both said the elections were free and legitimate.



lol Carter? You know you lose an argument when you interject Carter into the debate. Sorry, but that is not a reputable source.



posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 02:15 PM
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Originally posted by paraphi
just a little reality check.


Greg Grandin, the author, teaches history at New York University and is a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences.
link to full analysis


In Peru, the radical phase of Peru’s military government lasted seven years. Chávez, in contrast, was in office fourteen years, and he never turned nor repressed his base.

Second and related, for decades now social scientists have been telling us that the kind of mobilized regime Venezuela represents is pump-primed for violence, that such governments can only maintain energy through internal repression or external war. But after years of calling the oligarchy squalid traitors, Venezuela has seen remarkably little political repression—certainly less than Nicaragua in the 1980s under the Sandinistas and Cuba today, not to mention the United States.

Chávez was a strongman. He packed the courts, hounded the corporate media, legislated by decree and pretty much did away with any effective system of institutional checks or balances. But I’ll be perverse and argue that the biggest problem Venezuela faced during his rule was not that Chávez was authoritarian but that he wasn’t authoritarian enough. It wasn’t too much control that was the problem but too little.

Chavismo came to power through the ballot following the near total collapse of Venezuela’s existing establishment. It enjoyed overwhelming rhetorical and electoral hegemony, but not administrative hegemony. As such, it had to make significant compromises with existing power blocs in the military, the civil and educational bureaucracy and even the outgoing political elite, all of whom were loath to give up their illicit privileges and pleasures

edit on 6-3-2013 by Exitt because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 02:17 PM
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reply to post by rock427
 


What about the OAS then they to said the elections were fair. At least back up your claims with facts and not personal opinion.
The elections were fair you may not like that but the people who voted did.

Do me a favor and read up about those organizations

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...
edit on 6-3-2013 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 6 2013 @ 02:20 PM
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edit on 6-3-2013 by MajorKarma because: (no reason given)




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