The Myth of Persecution: How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom

You know Tibet was a brutal serfdom, the peasants celebrated in the streets when the Chinese communists took over
The Dali Lama was a crook and the US press used the whole affair to attack the communists credibility. Credible site, credible references???
www.npc.gov.cn...

Who wins and who manipulates, its all history twisted to suit an agenda.
Hey not many Jews died in concentration camps (David Irving) and the Japs in WW2 were mostly nice, so Japanese schools now teach.

Just in recent times, millions of Christians have died, killed at the hands of others wanting Christians dead.
www.deseretnews.com/.../Christian-killed-every-5-minutes.html?...
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Sorry, couldn't get the link to load. but there is quite a startling view of information going back far further than recent times.
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Quote from link above
"Barrett and Todd M. Johnson said from AD 30 to 2000, 70 million Christians died as martyrs. The majority of those martyrs were not in ancient times. There were 45 million Christian martyrs in the 20th century. Introvigne emphasized these figures "exclude those killed for national, ethnic or political reasons who just happened to be Christian but were not killed because of their being Christian."

Barrett and Johnson's figures attribute 31.6 million of those 70 million Christian martyrs to atheist persecutors. Muslims killed another 9.1 million Christians"


******"Muslims killed another 9.1 million Christians"*******

reply to post by wildtimes


The "300-year persecution" is so laughable.

Christianity wasn't recognized as a religion at that point, the Romans just saw Christians as another sect of Jews. All of the "alternative" religions of the time were under attack, very similar to the way that the dominant religions of today do not hesitate to attack less popular ones. Because religion hasn't changed much since the bronze age. Asking a Roman to differentiate between a Jew and a Christian would be like asking a life-long atheist to tell you the difference between a baptist and an evangelist today. You'd get a vague explanation (in this case about infomercials and picketing funerals) but not much else.

reply to post by Plotus


I'm not disputing that, Plotus, I can't speak to its veracity or falsity, nor do I intend to.

The author of the book in the OP is talking about ancient, early Christians, prior to Rome's council. From what I can tell, that is all she is talking about. Ancient, early Christians.

She, according to reviews and the book descrption, DOES NOT say NO ONE WAS MARTYRED; and again, I included in the OP the citation that indicated it.
Neither I, nor the author, is purporting that no one was martyred ever!! That would be absurd and obviously false.

Likewise, no one has tried to imply that those who DID die were justly executed; certainly not. And I do think it's unjust to try to put the impression that the author (let alone I) would MINIMIZE the tragedy, facts and feelings of those who undoubtedly WERE martyred and their loved ones.

Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by undo

 

did you include the 50,000,000 christians, jews, muslims and pagans of various types (mostly christians though), killed by stalin?

No, I didn't.

If I included every account of Christians - and others - who’ve been and are currently being persecuted for their religion I'd use up all ATS bandwidth in a post!

Thank you -

peace

What a great tale you weave, too bad its all smoke and mirrors. You list, about, 100 christians who were condemed for being christian... but what about the thousands more who werent christan. or the millions that christians have killed in the name of their lord? you say that its some great attack on you and your chosen belief system, to have this down played, that it's an insult to their memory and that of their family. But what about all the deaths (countless millions) and upheaval thats been outright swept under the carpet/ erased from history, all at the hands of the christian empire. You scream that "they" are persecuting you and yours for your beliefs, and yet which form of religion is the dominate one in the (civilized) world at present? You guessed it, Christianity. So is it likely that you and yours are being persecuted for fallowing the herd? Doubtful at best I'd say. Most high ranking officals, and a good percentage of film, tv, and music industries are also openly christian, or of a similar denomination. So why would they go out of their way to attack not only christians but themselves? the answer is they woulndn't. Give it up already, chrisianity took over the world nearly 1000 years ago (maybe more but being conservative for arguments sake, and has spent much of that time either villianizing everyone and anyone who went against whatever bs the church descided to spew that week, or just outright killing those that couldnt/ wouldnt be converted as to solidify their power over the people.

On topic: Personally I am quite interested in seeing just how fair and balanced she actually can been, its a give in the there will be some bias one way or the other, it just matters whether she can/will at least try to be fair in her assesment of the events. As you can likely guess from the above reply, i dont hold a great deal of stock in the theory of christian persecution, at least not in the way its laid out for us by the church. I have no doubt that christians have been killed but i feel that most, not all but most, were killed for other reasons, and their being christian was only thought of at a later date (set about to display the cruelity and barbarisim of the non christians, as a sick and twisted sort of cationary tale to make sure the slaves knew who to hate and who to love/worship).

reply to post by looneylupinsrevenge

On topic: Personally I am quite interested in seeing just how fair and balanced she actually can been, its a give in the there will be some bias one way or the other, it just matters whether she can/will at least try to be fair in her assesment of the events.

It should be interesting, I agree.
I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt until I can read it for myself. I'm not an expert, but I have a good chunk of research done, so hopefully I will be able to approach it fairly and objectively.
Thanks for your response.

reply to post by looneylupinsrevenge


the psychology of the average individual is such that striking a position opposite to theirs, at even the most minute level, can result in them doing the opposite of what you might prefer. an example is suggesting that karma is in action when people are genocided or persecuted for a world view, when we have no qualifier for who is doing what, where or when. we have only the assumptions of history books and media, that have historically proven to be less than stellar. i think the position you've decided to take on this issue, is the kind of approach that causes the problems in the first place. it's like a never ending merry go round of blame the victims. jews died, blame jews. christians died, blame christians. pagans died, blame pagans. muslims died, blame muslims. we're all so busy trying to justify the deaths of people we disagree with or to make those deaths seem justified, that we end up perpetuating the initial problems. and around and around it goes.

use your wisdom. telling a thread full of people who likely don't even own a dangerous weapon much less have the desire to use it, that they are responsible for bloody massacres, and not just today, but for thousands of years, is equivalent to saying you are personally responsible for the sun setting every day, for thousands of years. yes, it's that ludicrous.

reply to post by undo

use your wisdom. telling a thread full of people who likely don't even own a dangerous weapon much less have the desire to use it, that they are responsible for bloody massacres, and not just today, but for thousands of years, is equivalent to saying you are personally responsible for the sun setting every day. yes, it's that ludicrous.

Who said that?
I don't see that anyone said that. The author of the book has not condemned today's Christians. That's kind of stretching it, don't you think? I am fairly confident that no one on ATS, or in this thread, has ever been responsible for "bloody massacres"!

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by undo

 

use your wisdom. telling a thread full of people who likely don't even own a dangerous weapon much less have the desire to use it, that they are responsible for bloody massacres, and not just today, but for thousands of years, is equivalent to saying you are personally responsible for the sun setting every day. yes, it's that ludicrous.

Who said that?
I don't see that anyone said that. The author of the book has not condemned today's Christians. That's kind of stretching it, don't you think? I am fairly confident that no one on ATS, or in this thread, has ever been responsible for "bloody massacres"!

read his post. he suggests that the poster he was responding to was not qualified to comment on persecution of and murders of christians, since christians were historically responsible for massive amounts of death. so in his/her view, it's just a karmic come uppance. by far, communism has kiilled many times more people than any other belief system or world view in history. MANY, many times. and this is because it first: targets religions, and second: targets anyone else that disagrees with it, regardless of religion or the lack thereof. and in many cases, does so in such a methodical and calculated way, it completely dehumanizes the people under its authority, turning them into nothing more than meaningless collections of biological mass who's only purpose in life is to serve the proletariat. and if that werent enough, killing people based on pre conceived notions of genetic favorability. such as this:



so i'm sticking by my comment. we are all individuals. we are not whole sections of history. not all communists are pol pots or stalins. i would not try to justify the killing of communists as a result. every person is unique. evidence suggests that persecution of people who have a different world view than the mainstream is tacit human behavior. lack of religion being just as guilty as religion. the common denominator is our shared humanity. there's no good guy, there's no bad guy. there's just a bunch of human beings, trying to survive.

hey the first person in this thread who is willing to be blamed for something someone else did, raise your hand

reply to post by undo

hey the first person in this thread who is willing to be blamed for something someone else did, raise your hand

Well, I didn't raise my hand, and it seems I'm being blamed for something someone else did.
Or at least for presenting it here, on a site that wants to explore conspiracies and deny ignorance.

reply to post by undo


I don't get the impression that that's what this thread, it's author or the author the book in the OP is about. It's about the false history of the persecution of early Christians, that feeds, to this day, the persecution complex that Christians seem so fond of.

I often see the argument "Early Christians must have seen the "truth" otherwise they wouldn't have been willing to have been martyred for their beliefs."

But, if Christians weren't singled out, and all walks of peoples were persecuted and murdered by the Romans, then their stoic justification and attachment to their own persecution falls apart. This is where the hostility to this information comes from.

reply to post by windword

I don't get the impression that that's what this thread, it's author or the author the book in the OP is about. It's about the false history of the persecution of early Christians, that feeds, to this day, the persecution complex that Christians seem so fond of.

Thanks, windword.

It's interesting to me that those who are feeling "persecuted" by this thread are behaving the way they are.

reply to post by wildtimes


Yep!

The concept of martyrdom has become, for some Christians, a badge of honor of one's faith. It's an abusive cycle that includes guilt, fear, sacrifice, apology. We should all feel guilty for persecuting people for believing that persecution is a precursor to sainthood, and apologize for ever having doubted or questioned their rationale.

This is NOT specifically a "Christian" tactic, per say. Jewish moms', Chinese "self deprecating words of humility", anyone seeking to use guilt to manipulate and control others. It's just that is a certain Christian population that uses this ploy.

reply to post by looneylupinsrevenge

What a great tale you weave, too bad its all smoke and mirrors. You list, about, 100 christians who were condemed for being christian... but what about the thousands more who werent christan.

I weave nothing. The thread is about the persecuting of Christians. Not any other religious organization OR the heinous atrocities perpetrated by the Church.

Unlike those who might presume that because I’m a Christian I wouldn’t be sympathetic to the suffering of other religious groups - they’re wrong.

Equally - the crimes against humanity performed and condoned by the Church are nothing but horrifying - though I’ll add I don’t equate the ’powers’ of the Church with Christians. Anyway, in restricting my response to specifying Christians I’m following T&C of ATS in staying on point.

Edit to add: I did finish the post. Disregard.

peace

reply to post by HairlessApe

Asking a Roman to differentiate between a Jew and a Christian would be like asking a life-long atheist to tell you the difference between a baptist and an evangelist today.

Thats because jew and christian have the same God, where we divurge from is the point of wether he could incarnate in the corporeal realm or not. Jews do not believe he can manifest corporeal, christians believe he can and that he did and we use prophecy to proclaim it.

When you boil it down, we're basically a different kind of jew, much like how 2000 years ago there were 3 different sects in judaism each with their own specific set of beliefs. Sadducees didn't believe in corporeal resurrection, Pharisees did believe in resurrection, and the Essenes also believed in resurrection but were of a more humble nature, shunning the wealth of the pharisees and sadducees, engaging in ritual baptism and they did all their own work, and they secluded themselves away from others not of their own sect and lived in communal settings, which included hauling their own water which was the work of women.

reply to post by wildtimes

Representing the Catholic Church? No, she's not.

I guess you missed the part of the religion of the university she teaches at....University of Notre Dame

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by undo

 

I don't get the impression that that's what this thread, it's author or the author the book in the OP is about. It's about the false history of the persecution of early Christians, that feeds, to this day, the persecution complex that Christians seem so fond of.

it was a response to looneylupinsrevenge. not the op.
and i am not fond of being persecuted or hearing of others being persecuted, regardless of their world view.

Please acknowledge that this lady is Catholic. She probably does not consider the millions murdered (non catholic Christians, Jews, pagans, anamists, Mohammedans, Buddhists and people's of all kinds) during the inquisitions to be persecution either.

reply to post by wildtimes


it is about as persecuted and ridiculed as it is today.