The Myth of Persecution: How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom

Originally posted by undo

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by undo

 

I don't get the impression that that's what this thread, it's author or the author the book in the OP is about. It's about the false history of the persecution of early Christians, that feeds, to this day, the persecution complex that Christians seem so fond of.

it was a response to looneylupinsrevenge. not the op.
and i am not fond of being persecuted or hearing of others being persecuted, regardless of their world view.

edit on 3-3-2013 by undo because: (no reason given)

It was addressed to all participants of this thread.

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by undo

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by undo

 

I don't get the impression that that's what this thread, it's author or the author the book in the OP is about. It's about the false history of the persecution of early Christians, that feeds, to this day, the persecution complex that Christians seem so fond of.

it was a response to looneylupinsrevenge. not the op.
and i am not fond of being persecuted or hearing of others being persecuted, regardless of their world view.

edit on 3-3-2013 by undo because: (no reason given)

It was addressed to all participants of this thread.

my response to looneylupinsrevenge was addressed to the whole thread? or your response to my response ? this is getting convulted. i responded to looneylupin. the op chimes in and questions part of the commentary, claiming the thread is not saying that. i say, i wasn't talking about the op, i was responding to looneylupin. you show up. you say the op is not trying to say that. i point out once again, that it was a response to something looneylupin said. your response to that is, "it was addressed to all participants of this thread". so my question is HUH? who, what, where?

Originally posted by undo
hey the first person in this thread who is willing to be blamed for something someone else did, raise your hand

^^^THIS post wasn't addressed to the whole thread?

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by undo
hey the first person in this thread who is willing to be blamed for something someone else did, raise your hand

^^^THIS post wasn't addressed to the whole thread?

oh okay thanks for clarifying. yeah that was to the whole thread. let me give you an idea why i felt lead to post that. i wasn't born a christian. the moment i became one, i suddenly inherited the guilty verdict of thousands of years of various people doing various not so good, things. this i found kinda hard to agree with, primarily because 1) i didn't do those things and 2) i wouldn't do those things even if i could do those things. thusly, i realized what was being asked of me was to allow myself to be blamed for other people's mistakes or evil, as if i were jesus walking around on the planet. (ya know, carrying the sins of others, that's already been done). i found such a concept to be ludicrous, and so refused to lay claim to things i didn't personally do.

simple really.

reply to post by undo


LOL! It's okay. I didn't mean to single you out or put you on the spot. I know what you mean.

I don't like being blamed for the transgressions of others either, like the sins of Adam and Eve!

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by undo

 

LOL! It's okay. I didn't mean to single you out or put you on the spot. I know what you mean.

I don't like being blamed for the transgressions of others either, like the sins of Adam and Eve!

oh boy don't get me started on that one. maybe another thread.

reply to post by yamammasamonkey

EDIT: Apparently, I am wrong! Okay, she's Catholic. I stand (sit, rather) corrected. I'd stand up, but then I couldn't see the screen very well.
I hadn't got as far as that site -- Thanks for correcting me.

Please acknowledge that this lady is Catholic.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

University of Notre Dame

So, because the unversity has a latin title, they are all 'Catholics'? That's really stretching it.

The gilded Golden Dome and statue of Mary atop the Main Building proclaim the Notre Dame campus as a place where faith is treasured and diverse traditions shared and respected. Our students represent all 50 states and over 100 countries. Rigorous academics, NCAA Division I athletics, and numerous events and activities create an environment in which our students are ignited with a passion to learn and to live to their fullest capacity.

Notre Dame is one of the few universities to regularly rank in the top 25 in the U.S. News & World Report survey of America's best colleges and the Learfield Sports Directors’ Cup standings of the best overall athletics programs.

“This college will be one of the most powerful means for doing good in this country.”
Rev. Edward Sorin, C.S.C., founder of the University of Notre Dame du Lac

Founded in 1842, Notre Dame stands on 1,250 acres considered by many to be among the most beautiful possessed by any university in the nation. From the collegiate Gothic architecture and park-like landscape to exquisite outdoor sculpture and breathtaking views, Notre Dame's campus is a visual splendor.

Notre Dame has a unique spirit. It is traditional, yet open to change. It is dedicated to religious belief no less than scientific knowledge. It has always stood for values in a world of facts. It has kept faith with Father Sorin's vision.

C'mon, really?
The underlined bit is my highlight.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by JesuitGarlic

 

University of Notre Dame

So, because the unversity has a latin title, they are all 'Catholics'? That's really stretching it.

Good luck with that -- the anti-Catholic hatred is deep with that one. He's told me that there are millions of Jesuits "hiding in plain sight" throughout the world and that the Catholics killed more people in the Inquisitions than actually existed in Europe in the 14th and 15th Centuries.

On the other hand, he's right, she's Catholic:

In discussions of Catholic identity or goals, I sometimes find myself disagreeing with my fellow Catholics not just on “substantive issues” but on what are the substantive issues. (Source)

Now you'll just have to sort out what agenda a Jesuit agent Catholic would have for telling the world that the church "lied" about early martyrs (apart from my previously mentioned "sensationalizing via provocative title" posit.)

reply to post by wildtimes


i think it would be good to read the good doctor's book first. the study of theology requires a healthy does of deconstructive criticism. Dr. Moss is a staunch advocate of deconstructive criticism, which is prevalent at Yale Divinity School. As with all true biblical scholarship, the questioning of doctrinal value systems along with hermeunetical criticism is not only valuable, but necessary. i agree with your assessment. i intend to do more reading from Dr. Moss' book. thanks.

reply to post by adjensen


personally, i don't think the catholic people are to blame for any of this stuff.
i do think the vatican is though, and that they have thrown their own parishoners under the bus
countless times, then used the resultant misery they created, as an impetus to attack targeted
groups. if this turns out to be true, that would make them the most diabolical organization in
the history of humankind and also the most brilliant. where better to hide the devil
than on the seat of the most powerful, most celebrated, holy institution in the world.

i was not sure if the devil existed, but the more i ponder the history of the vatican and the jesuits
the more i think they are behind almost every major atrocity since the forming of the roman empire.

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by adjensen

 

i was not sure if the devil existed, but the more i ponder the history of the vatican and the jesuits
the more i think they are behind almost every major atrocity since the forming of the roman empire.

I would suggest that you study history via historical works, rather than conspiracy theories.

Setting aside the fact that the Vatican did not exist until at least 100 years after the "forming of the Roman Empire" and the Jesuits didn't exist until well over 1,000 years after it fell, a summary of known historical wars shows far less religious involvement than is commonly held, even by non-anti-religious kooks who see conspiracy in every shadow.

reply to post by adjensen

Now you'll just have to sort out what agenda a Jesuit agent Catholic would have for telling the world that the church "lied" about early martyrs (apart from my previously mentioned "sensationalizing via provocative title" posit.)

perhaps the same reason you posit...short-circuit people's thinking that if the early Christian martyrs is overblown then the stuff the Catholics are responsible for (which is the majority of the Christian persecution later on) is overblown as well.

Things to consider when assessing a source...

adjensen, I would like to see this quote of 200 million dead that I supposedly made and see whether it was in relation to merely two centuries or over the whole period of the inquisition. So how many people were living at the start of the 14th century and how many people were born over that 200 year period for curiosity sake...seeing that you must have looked up the statistics

reply to post by adjensen

On the other hand, he's right, she's Catholic:

Hey, thanks for pointing that site out! I didn't see anything referencing her as affiliated to anyone except her university.

So, yeah......why would a Catholic say these things?

reply to post by adjensen


i will do so, mr. adjensen. actually, i have done so but will read anything you can provide. i'm concerned for you and yours, as i would hope you would be for me and mine.

Originally posted by wildtimes

So, yeah......why would a Catholic say these things?

did you read my first post in the thread?

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


did you read the ats thread called ALL ROADS LEAD TO ROME?
he made the case that the vatican is prepared to throw, not just the catholic people, but the entirety of christianity, under the bus in fact, he makes the case that rome has ruled the world since the dawn of civilization, via some shadowy group who not only created christianity, but also judaism, islam and pagan religions as well. he says, the masons are in on it, and the other secret orgs as well, and that the text of prophecy is simply the game plan for the end of this age, when the atheists will kill off all the religious groups the shadowy group created because they are no longer needed in this era of scientific knowledge. and that the shadowy group has always been atheist, and created religions for the purpose of herding and manipulating humans. or something like that.

i don't think he's entirely right, but i also don't think he's entirely wrong. there's a slim thread of truth running thru his information. but this is also something to consider: if high profile catholic scholars are throwing christianity in the trash bin, again, i would say the all roads lead to rome theory may have some bearing on it.

reply to post by undo

Yes, I read all the posts in any thread I start.

Thanks for your contributions.

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
adjensen, I would like to see this quote of 200 million dead that I supposedly made

Actually, I need to retract that statement and apologize -- you didn't say it, I confused you with Murgatroid's post here, because both you and he cited the same flawed study by David Plaisted, which is where the 200 million number comes from (ironically, from Plaisted's debunking of it.)

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by undo

 

Yes, I read all the posts in any thread I start.

Thanks for your contributions.

what do you make of it? consider this happened (the enlightenment, i mean) in the same time frame as the rise of protestantism and the supposed fall of the holy roman empire. they were about to lose the hearts and minds of parishioners everywhere. we would learn what the bible actually said. what jesus actually taught. suddenly, their scholars at the german universities were having revelations about the falsehood of ancient history. i mean the timing was freakin' impeccable. i don't think they ever lost power. i think they use proxies to rule (like the rise of atheism, was their response to the rise of protestantism and the fall of the empire. they engineered atheism and supported the founders. the scientific establishment certainly behaves similarly -- they know everything and everyone else is a subhuman) and are still in control of the entire planet as we speak.