The Myth of Persecution: How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom

I dunno about it being a myth ..
The Catacombs are pretty good physical evidence of persecution and martyrdom of early christians.

reply to post by undo


I will give this more attention tomorrow, undo.
Thanks for your input.
Right now I gotta retire for the evening.
Have a great night.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by undo

 

I will give this more attention tomorrow, undo.
Thanks for your input.
Right now I gotta retire for the evening.

Have a great night.

alrighty. when you return, read the post i'm referring to here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

i'm interested in hearing how you think this may be effecting things like the book written by the lady in your op. what, if anything, is she up to, other than sharing her "discoveries"? is this just enlightenment part 2? end time games rebooted (how many times has the planet been rebooted? and who is doing the rebooting?). is she playing a role, a hired gun, or just a person who, even though she is catholic, feels compelled to attack the history of christianity?

reply to post by undo

i do think the vatican is though, and that they have thrown their own parishoners under the bus countless times, then used the resultant misery they created, as an impetus to attack targeted groups. if this turns out to be true, that would make them the most diabolical organization in the history of humankind and also the most brilliant. where better to hide the devil than on the seat of the most powerful, most celebrated, holy institution in the world.

What you have just described is this prophetic reference....

Revelation 17:16 and 17 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

It might take a little too long to explain and wane people's interests but the passage here is basically saying that in the end the Papal system/Vatican (the beast) will be the cause for the Catholic church's (the harlot) own destruction during the tribulation period.

Your reference to the devil lurking behind the Vatican is prophetically foretold here

Revelation 13:2 And the beast that I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his throne, and great authority.

And the diabolical nature of it is best described in this other description:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

This reference son of perdition is only ever used one other time (to describe Judas Iscariot)

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Hmmm, someone who hid himself amongst the other disciples (acted like a follower of God) but was the one who betrayed Him....with a kiss.

I will be putting together a future thread how the Vatican fulfills ever prophetic description of who this (sea) beast is. The thread will be based somewhat off this site but some of the descriptions they have answered for have a few holes in them which I will fix up properly in my own version and present it with a better sense of flow and chronology, but yes...the Bible does clearly point that the devil is behind the Vatican

reply to post by wildtimes


if you look into the elders of zion notes you will see the IS-RA-ELITES have rewritten history from the 1920s onwards by buying out all of the publishing companies.

Most people think the French Revolution was an uprising by the serfs when in fact it was orchestrated by the Masons who work for the elites, the serfs apparently worked a 15 hour week with one day off every fourth day with partying and festivites being held a lot more than we party now.

source Dancing in the streets by Barbara Ehrenreich

The knights templars were the bankers of the catholic church by the way

after the Napoleonic wars was when religion really took off

Originally posted by jinni73
if you look into the elders of zion notes you will see the IS-RA-ELITES have rewritten history from the 1920s onwards by buying out all of the publishing companies.

Dude ... don't even go there.
Protocols of the Elders of Zion .. well known HOAX

Originally posted by looneylupinsrevenge

Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by undo

 

did you include the 50,000,000 christians, jews, muslims and pagans of various types (mostly christians though), killed by stalin?

No, I didn't.

If I included every account of Christians - and others - who’ve been and are currently being persecuted for their religion I'd use up all ATS bandwidth in a post!

Thank you -

peace

What a great tale you weave, too bad its all smoke and mirrors. You list, about, 100 christians who were condemed for being christian... but what about the thousands more who werent christan. or the millions that christians have killed in the name of their lord? you say that its some great attack on you and your chosen belief system, to have this down played, that it's an insult to their memory and that of their family. But what about all the deaths (countless millions) and upheaval thats been outright swept under the carpet/ erased from history, all at the hands of the christian empire. You scream that "they" are persecuting you and yours for your beliefs, and yet which form of religion is the dominate one in the (civilized) world at present? You guessed it, Christianity.

Who couldnt see this comming....

The thread is about the question asked that maybe the christains hyped up the extent of what roan did to them. All this other information fits into a larger picture but does not address the question. But who could have guessed this would became a slam christain thread?

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Logarock

 

Its clear at this point that you just may have an agenda beyond a reconsideration of the extent of the martyrdoms. It looks like you are slowly creeping up on the suggestion that if the early martyer records were fabricated or hyped to a good degree then there is no reason not to believe the whole story of christianity is hyped up tall tales.

My agenda is this: deny ignorance.

Keep learning, keep listening, keep thinking and digging. I want to know the truth, and I don't really care what it turns out to be, as long as I know what it is.

Please don't put words in my mouth. (I shoot it off enough as it is.

) My opinion about matters of faith are not fixed; they change and are very fluid. I'm studying the phenomenon of faith/belief AS A SUBJECT as objectively as I can; I, too, have been shown or seen book titles that I chose not to read.
To each his own library.

Ok no one put words in your mouth and is this thread really isnt about faith is it? Now you may say you want to keep learning and diging but several comments you made on the first several pages look like reasons and motives may go beyo.nd a simple question of the truth.

reply to post by Logarock

Now you may say you want to keep learning and diging but several comments you made on the first several pages look like reasons and motives may go beyo.nd a simple question of the truth.

Okay, okay doc.
Thanks for the statement analysis. You're right, and feel free to read through my posts from my profile.

The thread is about a new book produced by academia that is certain to upset some people who BELIEVE what they have been told. They have FAITH that their leaders and teachers would not deceive them. The fact is that they do; even academia will "slant" their curricula to suit the underlying "mission" - whether put in one of those silly "Mission Statements" (that mean not much more than a bumper sticker) of the institution, or the covert agenda of the Department, or the Professor.

That's why, in my opinion, it's important to look at new information even when we are not "enrolled" at those institutions, nor privy to their agendae. Do I think there are valid reasons to suspect the same of the "Church"? Yes, I do.

If you do not agree with me, that's fine. If you want to keep "deciding" what my agenda is, I can't stop you. But in the end, "I'm the decider." And I've decided I don't believe much of what is put forth as "truth." Do what you will with that. If I were Christian, I'm sure I'd be upset by the very public ridicule of religious institutions across the "Christian world," too. But I'm not, and the only dog I have in this fight is that people ought to be confident that they've been told the truth.

And in this age of "transparency" and "leaks" of "top-secret" information, the church is no less subject to scrutiny than any other institution of society.

reply to post by Logarock


A slam christian thread? How about a "question authority" thread.

Anyhoo, I'd think Christians would be RELIEVED to find out that not so many of them were slaughtered! No? If not, why not?

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Logarock

 

A slam christian thread? How about a "question authority" thread.

Anyhoo, I'd think Christians would be RELIEVED to find out that not so many of them were slaughtered! No? If not, why not?

Well we do know that, whatever the larger numbers were, that from its beginning and then on up to the christian conflicts in Britain, that the heads and leaders, reformation types, had always been hunted down, stoned, burned at the stake what have you. The better moves in the church were always about questioning authority. Every time you see a bible anywhere just remember that the few men that fought to make it had to the masses were almost all burned at the state, hung, beheaded cast into prison ect ect. victims of the standing relationship between political power and offical religious power.

Having a PHD after your name doesn't mean you are necessarily smart or intelligent... it just means you are persistent and had money enough to pursue the degree. So she wrote a book claiming this or that... big deal. I'm sure the early Christians had more fun than a barrel monkeys--dealing with the likes of Caligula.

I've known Doctors of Philosophy that couldn't pore piss out of a boot if the directions were on the bottom.

For those interested in the Diocletianic Persecution, which was one of the most brutal and lasted from 299AD - 324AD, there is a nice chart with sources here from the Wisconsin Lutheran College. It is interesting to see how the four different segments of the Empire treated Christians during this period, with the least persecution in the far west, and worst in the Eastern Mediterranean, which ended only after Constantine (who was from the west) "retook" those lands.

Moss, however, exposes that the “Age of Martyrs” is a fiction—there was no sustained 300-year-long effort by the Romans to persecute Christians. Instead, these stories were pious exaggerations; highly stylized rewritings of Jewish, Greek, and Roman noble death traditions; and even forgeries designed to marginalize heretics, inspire the faithful, and fund churches.

honestly that's probably the dumbest "idea/theory" I've ever heard. Just as dumb as the .0001% of fringe "scholars" who say that Jesus was made up and never existed.

Logic dictates and history proves, that any "new" religious/spiritual group that has emerged throughout history, has cause various schisms and martyrdom due to clashes with the status quo of society. There are "martyrs" in Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, Taoism, etc etc that happen to this very day, have happened over the last 100 years, 500 years, 2,500 years.

Even Socrates died a martyr for the sake of Philosophical truth. HE had the option to flee the prison, however chose to stay and drink the hemlock sanctioned to him by the courts.

This is human nature we're talking about. Any minority group will always initially be the whipping boy of society, including martyrs. This is true for ethnic groups, race, gender, sexuality, religious/spiritual view, etc.

Very dumb theory

reply to post by dominicus

honestly that's probably the dumbest "idea/theory" I've ever heard. Just as dumb as the .0001% of fringe "scholars" who say that Jesus was made up and never existed.

Well, I don't know about dumb. Just against the tide of consensus. None of us have read the book. So at the moment we can't say the woman is off her rocker yet.

Logic dictates and history proves, that any "new" religious/spiritual group that has emerged throughout history, has cause various schisms and martyrdom due to clashes with the status quo of society. There are "martyrs" in Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, Taoism, etc etc that happen to this very day, have happened over the last 100 years, 500 years, 2,500 years.

This however, may be one of the best points in the thread. Common sense dictates the truth of it. I don't think the author, or the OP are denying persecution or martyrdom. Just the extent of it. Which, in my opinion, we may never really know. It isn't like their were no agendas or prejudices in the recording of history. Just because the writings are old, doesn't mean they aren't skewed from the writers perspective. We can only take our best guess based on the whole of witnesses.

So while I reserve judgement that it's dumb. I do agree with much of what you're saying.

Originally posted by dominicus

Moss, however, exposes that the “Age of Martyrs” is a fiction—there was no sustained 300-year-long effort by the Romans to persecute Christians. Instead, these stories were pious exaggerations; highly stylized rewritings of Jewish, Greek, and Roman noble death traditions; and even forgeries designed to marginalize heretics, inspire the faithful, and fund churches.

honestly that's probably the dumbest "idea/theory" I've ever heard. Just as dumb as the .0001% of fringe "scholars" who say that Jesus was made up and never existed.

You are right. And just listen to the tone.

1.Fiction
2.Pious Exaggerations
3.Rewritings (plagiarism and reshaping)
4.Forgeries

reply to post by Klassified

I don't think the author, or the OP are denying persecution or martyrdom.

I would say the phrase "The Myth of Persecution" in the title of the book bloody well denies something (and I recognize that WT just used the title of the book for her thread, so it's not her point.)

If her book doesn't deny Christian persecution, then the title is pure sensationalism and one of the worst since Lawrence Krauss' A Universe from Nothing, which proved no such thing and he later admitted was chosen simply to "generate interest."

reply to post by adjensen

You and I both know something can be true, and still have mythologies and "exaggerations" connected to it. That said, I can't argue with the title being sensationalist. It is definitely meant to get ones attention.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by tinhattribunal

 

What? The link is just a blank reply screen from this site.

sorry, i didn't mean to do that.
allroadsleadtorome
previewed and checked it this time.

Originally posted by AshleyD
From what I understand, the premise of this source material is very loosely correct but also a bit misleading.

For instance, it is debatable in terms of specific well known saints who are historically celebrated as martyrs. That should come as no surprise, of course. Some of it was legend, oral tradition, etc., and we don't really know for sure. I can't even think of any specific examples off the top of my head but remember coming across them over the years in my reading.

But on the WHOLE, it is indisputable fact that thousands of Christians were tortured and put to death in mass numbers for their faith under Rome. It's well documented via ancient historians- both Christian and non Christian.

So the source in this thread makes it sound like it was exaggerated much worse that it was. True, we have questions concerning some if they were really martyred or not. And even then- they very well could have been martyred- we just are not sure because the records relating to individual deaths were not as thorough as the official state persecutions.

All the saints were taken from different religions to get the christian movement started but maybe nobody wants to know this hey.