If God is perfect then...., page 8

reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens

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Mankind shall look upon such nonsense in about a century or less, with derision, condescension and sarcasm.

While I agree with much of what you posted, I feel you have taken a rather harder line than warranted. As seen in literature classes and history seminars, religion and spirituality and philosophy have all left a mark on culture in such a way that can never be erased, save by time and forgetfulness - both of which are fast becoming obsolete due to technology. All Judaic and Abrahamic religions will be remembered by their legacies, in both literature and art.

Just because the axe may slay a man, does not mean it cannot aid the construction of a domicile that provides warmth and shelter for generations of children ready to change the world. Intention has more to do with the identity of an object, person, or idea than such a thing's inherent nature ever will.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

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Oh, no - you misunderstand me.

I readily accept that there are several benefits derived from religions and theologies and whatnot - certainly this is so.

However, having said that, the irrationality which surrounds them is what I dislike - when people actually strongly believe it. That is when they become dangerous.

Of course, whilst they may provide a source of comfort and aid for many, I do believe that the intelligent and rational human will not strongly believe it with all of his heart (although he may readily pick and choose what he can benefit from).

Originally posted by Jepic
reply to post by eleven44

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Like I said. There is no excuse for God. If he truly wanted a universe of love and harmony with beings of love and harmony he would have created just that. There is just no excuse.

What or who in his/her/its right mind creates a polar world with primitive beings and then warns these primitive beings to refrain from doing things or else they will get punished with suffering. Only a God that seeks entertainment would have this idea. It's like warning a lion to not eat meat while holding a piece of fresh deer in front of its nose! I mean where is the sense in that...

For a being with ultimate power there is no excuse.

So....you would honestly rather not exist at this moment than live in the current world we are experiencing? (Genuine question )

You don't think that there is ANY purpose within this world?
You don't think you have learned ANYTHING from your experiences?
The ONLY thing worth experiencing is the positive? ( - Which, again, remember: we came from and will go back to complete harmony with God, this world is just a temporary blip we chose to experience to learn.)
Do you think you could create an entire Universe better than God can?
Do you honestly think that you have the foresight and wisdom to understand absolute good and what is absolutely necessary?

What would be the purpose of a Universe that doesn't have polarity at least to some extent? (Again, keep in mind: we came from a 'universe' that is not divided and where we are wholly [holy] at One with the Creator.)

Your soul CHOSE to come here to experience (yes, even the 'negative.') It is impossible to truly 'know' something without experiencing it.

Are you not grateful for the life you have had/are having?

If not, try to have an open heart and an open mind. Forget what you think you think you know about God, or what has been taught to you by religious institutions in the past. Seek to understand for yourself and to experience the divine within. Try meditation. Try prayer. Try listing all that you are grateful for (including things such as feet, air, sunshine, breath, food, fingers, internet, language, family, eyelashes, pineapples, trees, birds, and fruit...to name a few.)
God speaks to us every day in every way. Through signs, songs, strangers, friends, television, thoughts, random people on ATS and so many other ways.


Trust me, I understand where you're coming from. It took me a while to find the true abundance of love that is ever present. But it truly is. And once you find it...you'll understand.

In the meantime, I HIGHLY recommend you reading the book 'Only Love is Real' by Brian Weiss. If you don't read this, then don't pretend to care that you want to understand.

cheers

Originally posted by eleven44

Originally posted by Jepic
reply to post by eleven44

---

Like I said. There is no excuse for God. If he truly wanted a universe of love and harmony with beings of love and harmony he would have created just that. There is just no excuse.

What or who in his/her/its right mind creates a polar world with primitive beings and then warns these primitive beings to refrain from doing things or else they will get punished with suffering. Only a God that seeks entertainment would have this idea. It's like warning a lion to not eat meat while holding a piece of fresh deer in front of its nose! I mean where is the sense in that...

For a being with ultimate power there is no excuse.

So....you would honestly rather not exist at this moment than live in the current world we are experiencing? (Genuine question )

You don't think that there is ANY purpose within this world?
You don't think you have learned ANYTHING from your experiences?
The ONLY thing worth experiencing is the positive? ( - Which, again, remember: we came from and will go back to complete harmony with God, this world is just a temporary blip we chose to experience to learn.)
Do you think you could create an entire Universe better than God can?
Do you honestly think that you have the foresight and wisdom to understand absolute good and what is absolutely necessary?

What would be the purpose of a Universe that doesn't have polarity at least to some extent? (Again, keep in mind: we came from a 'universe' that is not divided and where we are wholly [holy] at One with the Creator.)

Your soul CHOSE to come here to experience (yes, even the 'negative.') It is impossible to truly 'know' something without experiencing it.

Are you not grateful for the life you have had/are having?

If not, try to have an open heart and an open mind. Forget what you think you think you know about God, or what has been taught to you by religious institutions in the past. Seek to understand for yourself and to experience the divine within. Try meditation. Try prayer. Try listing all that you are grateful for (including things such as feet, air, sunshine, breath, food, fingers, internet, language, family, eyelashes, pineapples, trees, birds, and fruit...to name a few.)
God speaks to us every day in every way. Through signs, songs, strangers, friends, television, thoughts, random people on ATS and so many other ways.


Trust me, I understand where you're coming from. It took me a while to find the true abundance of love that is ever present. But it truly is. And once you find it...you'll understand.

In the meantime, I HIGHLY recommend you reading the book 'Only Love is Real' by Brian Weiss. If you don't read this, then don't pretend to care that you want to understand.

cheers

edit on 28-2-2013 by eleven44 because: (no reason given)

reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens

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I would like to call attention to the fact that there is a thin but distinct line between spirituality and religion. While religion may pervert spirituality, spirituality in and of itself is nothing but beneficial to those who feel it. It is the very essence of meaning, regardless of what that meaning may be. It is the soul of the imagination, the seed of the idea.

Spirituality is what we see in art and literature. Religion is the expression, spirit is the message. And people misunderstand the beggar for his dirty face, and the lawyer for his shiny shoes. We must remember this.

Originally posted by eleven44

Originally posted by Jepic
reply to post by eleven44

---

Like I said. There is no excuse for God. If he truly wanted a universe of love and harmony with beings of love and harmony he would have created just that. There is just no excuse.

What or who in his/her/its right mind creates a polar world with primitive beings and then warns these primitive beings to refrain from doing things or else they will get punished with suffering. Only a God that seeks entertainment would have this idea. It's like warning a lion to not eat meat while holding a piece of fresh deer in front of its nose! I mean where is the sense in that...

For a being with ultimate power there is no excuse.

So....you would honestly rather not exist at this moment than live in the current world we are experiencing? (Genuine question )

You don't think that there is ANY purpose within this world?
You don't think you have learned ANYTHING from your experiences?
The ONLY thing worth experiencing is the positive? ( - Which, again, remember: we came from and will go back to complete harmony with God, this world is just a temporary blip we chose to experience to learn.)
Do you think you could create an entire Universe better than God can?
Do you honestly think that you have the foresight and wisdom to understand absolute good and what is absolutely necessary?

What would be the purpose of a Universe that doesn't have polarity at least to some extent? (Again, keep in mind: we came from a 'universe' that is not divided and where we are wholly [holy] at One with the Creator.)

Your soul CHOSE to come here to experience (yes, even the 'negative.') It is impossible to truly 'know' something without experiencing it.

Are you not grateful for the life you have had/are having?

If not, try to have an open heart and an open mind. Forget what you think you think you know about God, or what has been taught to you by religious institutions in the past. Seek to understand for yourself and to experience the divine within. Try meditation. Try prayer. Try listing all that you are grateful for (including things such as feet, air, sunshine, breath, food, fingers, internet, language, family, eyelashes, pineapples, trees, birds, and fruit...to name a few.)
God speaks to us every day in every way. Through signs, songs, strangers, friends, television, thoughts, random people on ATS and so many other ways.


Trust me, I understand where you're coming from. It took me a while to find the true abundance of love that is ever present. But it truly is. And once you find it...you'll understand.

In the meantime, I HIGHLY recommend you reading the book 'Only Love is Real' by Brian Weiss. If you don't read this, then don't pretend to care that you want to understand.

cheers

edit on 28-2-2013 by eleven44 because: (no reason given)

I'd rather exist in a world of harmony than disharmony.
What is the purpose of life? That is a good question.
I have learned from knowledge. I have refined through experience.
The only thing worth experiencing is the positive. The negative will only turn you bitter and corrupted.
Maybe I could, maybe I couldn't. But as far as I know I did not choose to be born here.
Absolute good is never letting you fellows into harm's way. Absolute necessity depends upon the motive.
The purpose of a universe without polarity would be to let its inhabitants only experience one side of the spectrum. Either complete positive or complete negative.
Souls. I don't know if they exist.
If God is real then I'm grateful for that which I have but terribly disappointed by the fact that there are filthy rich banksters while there are babies about to take their last gasp of air because of desnutrition.
Finally, love. Love as far as I'm concerned is nothing more than hormones. Love is certainly not conflict or preference.

reply to post by Jepic

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No. Not really. The biggest strength is our capacity to let morals and logic guide our decision and behaviour. You don't need emotions to do that.

Those morals were initially formed without emotion? Emotion plays no role in the drive to continue to follow them?

You absolutely sure about that?

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by Jepic

---

No. Not really. The biggest strength is our capacity to let morals and logic guide our decision and behaviour. You don't need emotions to do that.

Those morals were initially formed without emotion? Emotion plays no role in the drive to continue to follow them?

You absolutely sure about that?

Morals are formed without emotion.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

---

Dear AfterInfinity,

Spirituality is what we see in art and literature. Religion is the expression, spirit is the message. And people misunderstand the beggar for his dirty face, and the lawyer for his shiny shoes. We must remember this.

I like what you said. Star to you.

Originally posted by Jepic

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by Jepic

---

No. Not really. The biggest strength is our capacity to let morals and logic guide our decision and behaviour. You don't need emotions to do that.

Those morals were initially formed without emotion? Emotion plays no role in the drive to continue to follow them?

You absolutely sure about that?

Morals are formed without emotion.

No emotion. Okay.

According to you these guys are qualified to be moralists then. If we can convince them to join us perhaps we can recruit their skills in making new morals and new ethics.

Self-aware. No emotion.

~the AI does not hate you, nor does it love you, but you are made out of atoms which it can use for something else.~ Eliezer Yudkowsky

I noticed in your signature you have the golden rule.

“Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you.”

Explain why this is good. Do so without listing a single emotion in your explanation. Don't restate what the rule is, actually explain why it's good.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Originally posted by Jepic

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by Jepic

---

No. Not really. The biggest strength is our capacity to let morals and logic guide our decision and behaviour. You don't need emotions to do that.

Those morals were initially formed without emotion? Emotion plays no role in the drive to continue to follow them?

You absolutely sure about that?

Morals are formed without emotion.

No emotion. Okay.

According to you these guys are qualified to be moralists then. If we can convince them to join us perhaps we can recruit their skills in making new morals and new ethics.

Self-aware. No emotion.

~the AI does not hate you, nor does it love you, but you are made out of atoms which it can use for something else.~ Eliezer Yudkowsky

I noticed in your signature you have the golden rule.

“Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you.”

Explain why this is good. Do so without listing a single emotion in your explanation. Don't restate what the rule is, actually explain why it's good.

edit on 28-2-2013 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)

You just went to the other extreme. I talk about no emotions and you go straight for robots. So terminators are not qualified to be moralists because they were meant to be destroyers.

But let's focus back on ourselves as I intended. Imagine yourself just without emotions. You would decide not to break a stranger's leg because you would know it is bad for his future as a member of society. That is being moral. You would help an old lady get back up as she might not be able to get back up alone. You would buy the kid an ice cream not because it makes him happy but because he will like the taste.
Tell me an example and I'll tell you why it is right or wrong without even mentioning emotion.

To me the golden rule is good because it is a way of making people who are doing wrong realise just what damage they are doing to other people and good people realise what good they are doing to other people.

Emotions play no role in right and wrong. They just let you feel right and wrong. But you don't need to feel to know what is right (constructive) and wrong (destructive). Both are self-evident.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

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Robots can follow morals. Just program them to. Program them to not kill, not steal, etc. no emotion is required for this. Now if you are asking to explain the morals itself without emotions - the answer is obvious.

Happiness (good mental health) and not killing others is what is best for the survival of the species.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

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Robots can follow morals. Just program them to. Program them to not kill, not steal, etc. no emotion is required for this. Now if you are asking to explain the morals itself without emotions - the answer is obvious.

Happiness (good mental health) and not killing others is what is best for the survival of the species.

But morals have nothing to do with emotions! There isn't a book I have read about morality and philosophy where they tell you that emotions are the backbone to a moral being. Absolutely no book.

reply to post by Jepic

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But morals have nothing to do with emotions! There isn't a book I have read about morality and philosophy where they tell you that emotions are the backbone to a moral being. Absolutely no book.

That's because there is no exact definition to morals. We pretend there are absolutes to morals just to simplify matters, but truth be told, we kill all the time, we lie all the time, and we cheat all the time. We cite situations in which exceptions are acceptable. We say that a white lie is okay because sometimes the truth hurts. We say that cheating is okay because the test is stupid anyway. We say that killing is okay sometimes because if it isn't them, it's us.

We break our own rules all the time because morals are not absolute. But how do we tell when to break our rules? We feel that we want to. We have this desire to break a rule because of a certain set of variables that carry meaning for us, and that meaning is enough to tempt us. If we were not emotional, those variables would mean nothing. If we were not emotional, we would simply kill someone to feed ourselves, or we would take that radio without paying for it.

Without emotion, it's eat or be eaten. But with emotion, we can imagine how that affects other people, and so we set down laws for ourselves. Laws that are in place because we are not unfeeling savages. Now, if you have an argument to refute all that, I'd be delighted to hear it. I'm thinking that you don't - because somehow, I feel I am right.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Jepic

---

But morals have nothing to do with emotions! There isn't a book I have read about morality and philosophy where they tell you that emotions are the backbone to a moral being. Absolutely no book.

That's because there is no exact definition to morals. We pretend there are absolutes to morals just to simplify matters, but truth be told, we kill all the time, we lie all the time, and we cheat all the time. We cite situations in which exceptions are acceptable. We say that a white lie is okay because sometimes the truth hurts. We say that cheating is okay because the test is stupid anyway. We say that killing is okay sometimes because if it isn't them, it's us.

We break our own rules all the time because morals are not absolute. But how do we tell when to break our rules? We feel that we want to. We have this desire to break a rule because of a certain set of variables that carry meaning for us, and that meaning is enough to tempt us. If we were not emotional, those variables would mean nothing. If we were not emotional, we would simply kill someone to feed ourselves, or we would take that radio without paying for it.

Without emotion, it's eat or be eaten. But with emotion, we can imagine how that affects other people, and so we set down laws for ourselves. Laws that are in place because we are not unfeeling savages. Now, if you have an argument to refute all that, I'd be delighted to hear it. I'm thinking that you don't - because somehow, I feel I am right.

What is right and wrong is absolute. Whether we break those codes, that is our choosing.

Without emotion I don't think it's eat or be eaten because we still have intelligence. The intelligence to know that it is important to share for the common good of all.

reply to post by Jepic

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What is right and wrong is absolute. Whether we break those codes, that is our choosing.

Without emotion I don't think it's eat or be eaten because we still have intelligence. The intelligence to know that it is important to share for the common good of all.

Intelligence means that we survive intelligently. Surviving intelligently means we give ourselves every chance and everyone else no chance unless they serve a purpose which furthers our survival. Are you an animal? Because that's what animals do. Wolves and bears.

Not humans. Humans form sentimental bonds which are based in emotion, and they are able to form empathic foundations by which to understand the position of a fellow human being and experience/express compassion in that regard. Without emotion, quite simply, we don't give a flying f***. Either you live or you die. More food and shelter for me.

Again, that's called being a savage. A heartless prick. If you aim simply for survival, you are no one's friend because you only see fit to help yourself. Is that what you call morals? Because that is the intellectual reality of cold hard logic. That's what we call being a "terminator". Fulfilling a specific set of parameters intended to preserve further existence. No more, no less.

reply to post by Jepic

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Originally posted by Jepic

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

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Robots can follow morals. Just program them to. Program them to not kill, not steal, etc. no emotion is required for this. Now if you are asking to explain the morals itself without emotions - the answer is obvious.

Happiness (good mental health) and not killing others is what is best for the survival of the species.

But morals have nothing to do with emotions! There isn't a book I have read about morality and philosophy where they tell you that emotions are the backbone to a moral being. Absolutely no book.

It is obvious that you either did not read what I typed or you have read it incorrectly. No where in there did I suggest that any emotion was necessary for morality.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Jepic

---

What is right and wrong is absolute. Whether we break those codes, that is our choosing.

Without emotion I don't think it's eat or be eaten because we still have intelligence. The intelligence to know that it is important to share for the common good of all.

Intelligence means that we survive intelligently. Surviving intelligently means we give ourselves every chance and everyone else no chance unless they serve a purpose which furthers our survival. Are you an animal? Because that's what animals do. Wolves and bears.

Not humans. Humans form sentimental bonds which are based in emotion, and they are able to form empathic foundations by which to understand the position of a fellow human being and experience/express compassion in that regard. Without emotion, quite simply, we don't give a flying f***. Either you live or you die. More food and shelter for me.

Again, that's called being a savage. A heartless prick. If you aim simply for survival, you are no one's friend because you only see fit to help yourself. Is that what you call morals? Because that is the intellectual reality of cold hard logic. That's what we call being a "terminator". Fulfilling a specific set of parameters intended to preserve further existence. No more, no less.

No. Íntelligence means that we will be smart enough to be on good terms with everyone because living in a society means that it is no about you, but about all of us. Sure emotions spice up life. But as we have seen with history, most of the times life gets a bit too spicy and over emotions we let ourselves get carried away and then that is how wars start. Emotions. Plain and simple. Emotions start wars. And they sure make them more painful too.

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