Question about Jesus

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by Murgatroid

 

I myself have always believed the obedience of Abraham to offer his only son to God as requested was the prerequisite to Gods offering Jesus . When God could sense a change of heart that comes over a person before they take a life he knew that Abraham was going to offer up Isaac.
At that time God offered his Son for the remission of sin.
I do believe that the place of Abraham's offering was the same place as the Sacrificial Altar on the Temple Mount .

Again... why does this need to be accomplished with HUMAN SACRIFICE???!!!?! Am I the only one who thinks this is absolute lunacy?

Lets see ? Your right to state your feelings , live in freedom , own the right and guns to protect yourself or have freedom of religion or no religion all came from human sacrifice .
God decided how the rules were going to be . I don't guess he looks at death the same way you do . God knows what is on the other side of that door we will all go through . Your body( flesh) is a vessel that executes the physical aspect of your journey through life . Or your body can be a prison in which your spirit will remain until that vessel can no longer contain the spirit . A good case for that is the Out of Body Experiences that have been researched so much . Your limited view on this side of death places all importance on what you see here. And thus you judging God with half the evidence .

Originally posted by mrperplexed

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by Murgatroid

 

I myself have always believed the obedience of Abraham to offer his only son to God as requested was the prerequisite to Gods offering Jesus . When God could sense a change of heart that comes over a person before they take a life he knew that Abraham was going to offer up Isaac.
At that time God offered his Son for the remission of sin.
I do believe that the place of Abraham's offering was the same place as the Sacrificial Altar on the Temple Mount .

Again... why does this need to be accomplished with HUMAN SACRIFICE???!!!?! Am I the only one who thinks this is absolute lunacy?

edit on 27-2-2013 by mrperplexed because: (no reason given)

Blood Sacrifice: Why Is Sacrifice Important to God?
by T. E. Hanna 30 comments


XWelcome Googler! If you find this page useful, you might want to subscribe to the RSS feed for updates on this topic.One of the most common criticisms leveled against Christianity is the argument that this “God of love” is, in reality, a violent, bloodthirsty deity with an unhealthy appetite for blood sacrifice. After all, what sort of God connects forgiveness with the slaughter of innocent animals?

Were blood sacrifice in vogue today, we certainly would be guilty of any number of animal rights violations, not to mention that modern psychology identifies the killing of animals to be an early marker for sociopathy. When seen from our modern vantage point, the blood sacrifice in the Old Testament is an understandable issue.

Definition of Sacrifice In The Old Testament
In fact, the first seven chapters of Leviticus are replete with the laws concerning various forms of animal sacrifice in the Old Testament. These are:

•Burnt offerings, whereby the animal is sacrificed, drained of blood, and then completely consumed by fire.
•Grain offerings (sometimes referred to as meat offerings in the KJV, as the Old English definition of ‘meat’ often referred simply to food), whereby grain or other foods from the field are presented and consumed by fire.
•Peace offerings, whereby an animal is sacrificed, cleaned, cooked on the altar, and eaten as a shared meal. This is most typically a lamb.
•Sin and guilt offerings, whereby a priest offers a blood sacrifice on behalf of the sin of another, the offering is then cleaned, cooked, and eaten by the priesthood.
The very fact that the opening seven chapters of Leviticus detail specifically how these are to be done belies the significance which blood sacrifice had to ancient Israelite worship. It still leaves the question unanswered, however… why does God demand blood sacrifice in the Old Testament?

The Origin of Blood Sacrifice
To get to the heart of this, we have to backtrack. The birth of monotheism was with Abraham*, as God revealed Himself and made covenant. It was this covenant which eventually brought forth Israel. In the ancient world, however, covenant was signified through sacrifice. An animal would be killed, its lifeblood drained, and the carcass cut in half. The two individuals making the pact would then walk, together, between the two halves of the slain animal, which signified the gravity of the vow they had made. The implication was that, should either of them violate the covenant, the one in violation should fall victim to the same fate which befell the slain beast before them. Covenant was a big deal.

So it was that, when God made covenant with Abraham, He did it in the only manner which Abraham understood – through sacrifice. This is important, because it reveals an aspect of God that is central to Christian theology: God meets us where we are, and leads us forward.

Sacrifice in the Old Testament, from this point forward, was centered around the covenant which God made with Abraham. Burnt offerings and grain offerings were offerings of livelihood, offering up to God that which we rely on, reminding us that our hope is found in God alone. Sin and guilt offerings were offerings of covenant restoration, offered on behalf of the priesthood, restoring those who had violated the covenant back into relationship with God. Peace offerings were similar, but directed at the community. The sacrificed animal would be cooked and the meal shared, that relationship with one another may be restored.

Of course, God was very clear to set limits on sacrifice, and would eventually deal with the practice itself. When Abraham was sent to offer up Isaac, his son, this was a matter of establishing proper boundaries for sacrifice. There, in Canaan, it was common practice to sacrifice the first-born child to one of the pagan gods, in the hope of slaking said deity’s wrath and preserving the lives of future children in a time where infant mortality was abysmally high. God, through Abraham’s obedience, changed this practice for His followers.

Sacrifice in the Old Testament was limited to animals that were sources of food, not children. By the Exodus, in fact, blood sacrifice was explicitly linked to food offerings, as the lamb slain at Passover was to be eaten as part of the ritual. In time, however, even the covenant meaning which was the basis for blood sacrifice became lost, and animal sacrifice was reduced to a ritual. Thus, by Hosea, we hear the lament of the Lord, “For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. But like Adam they transgressed the covenant; there they dealt faithlessly with me.” (Hosea 6:6-7)

The End of Blood Sacrifice
So it was that Jesus ended blood sacrifice for all time. The covenant with Abraham was that God would make him the father of many nations, and that through him all the nations of the earth would be blessed. The fulfillment of that covenant was met in His son, Jesus. The quintessential blood sacrifice under the Old Covenant was represented in the Passover lamb. This lamb would be brought forth three days prior to Passover, and observed for those three days to make sure it was without blemish or defect. On the third day, Passover Eve, the lamb would be sacrificed, drained of blood, cooked, and eaten with bitter herbs. Through this, it was remembered how the blood of the lamb protected the children from death in Egypt, and set them free from their slavery.

Jesus entered Jerusalem three days prior to Passover. For three days He was observed as He was tested by Caiaphas, Annas, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the teachers of the law, and finally Pontius Pilate… who declared that he found nothing wrong with Jesus. On Passover Eve, the Lamb of God was sacrificed on a cross, so that by His blood the angel of death may not claim us and we are set free from our slavery to sin. Jesus became the perfect sin offering.

It goes on. The night He was betrayed, He broke bread, announcing it to be His body, broken for us. He took wine, and, giving thanks, offered it to us as His blood of the New Covenant. Through Eucharist, we partake of Jesus as the perfect peace offering.

The only offering remaining was the burnt offering and the grain offering – the offering of livelihood, freely given to remind us that our provision is found in God alone. This we still practice, but it is instead found in the offering of our livelihood delivered into a little wooden plate passed around on Sunday morning. Our livelihood has changed; so the offering has changed to match.

Blood sacrifice in the Old Testament was necessary because it reflects a God who meets us where we are at and leads us from there. Blood sacrifice is now complete, perfectly fulfilled, as the Lamb of God, the perfect sacrifice, offered Himself once for all. God still meets us where we are at. Hopefully, we still follow as He leads us home.

Originally posted by SimonPeter
Lets see ? Your right to state your feelings , live in freedom , own the right and guns to protect yourself or have freedom of religion or no religion all came from human sacrifice .
God decided how the rules were going to be . I don't guess he looks at death the same way you do . God knows what is on the other side of that door we will all go through . Your body( flesh) is a vessel that executes the physical aspect of your journey through life . Or your body can be a prison in which your spirit will remain until that vessel can no longer contain the spirit . A good case for that is the Out of Body Experiences that have been researched so much . Your limited view on this side of death places all importance on what you see here. And thus you judging God with half the evidence .

Interesting you say OBE... you should read one of my earlier threads (linked)... I had one. And talk about what I saw.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by SimonPeter
Lets see ? Your right to state your feelings , live in freedom , own the right and guns to protect yourself or have freedom of religion or no religion all came from human sacrifice .
God decided how the rules were going to be . I don't guess he looks at death the same way you do . God knows what is on the other side of that door we will all go through . Your body( flesh) is a vessel that executes the physical aspect of your journey through life . Or your body can be a prison in which your spirit will remain until that vessel can no longer contain the spirit . A good case for that is the Out of Body Experiences that have been researched so much . Your limited view on this side of death places all importance on what you see here. And thus you judging God with half the evidence .

Why does God decide rules? Who gave him that omnipotance/authority? It would not look at physical death the way you do as in it does not inhabit a gross form; and in so saying is an irony (why do you God NOT inhabit a 3D form). As I see it the body is not a prison; it is an EXPRESSION. Vessel containing spirit. When out of body what defines the spirit containment--a vessel? and if so what form would that take? THE MAGIC 8 BALL. God looks at death as something IT will never have to experience, so is enlightenned "matter of factly no DENYING". What course of action do you take as in there is no "Manual of Protocol" no lobbiers for your continued existance (a good NAACP lawyer might help or any Human Rights Activist Groups).

reply to post by ccseagull


Have you ever experienced, been involved with a blood sacrifice? Have you ever been the blood donor? I have. It is a deeply mysterious symbolic letting of the blood for various reasons pinpointed at erasures of past calamitous actions by humans. Not one that forestalls or wipes out huge paradyms of evil intent. Not possible on that scale because it is not focused. Anyone who believes Jesus died and KNOWINGLY sacrificed himself for our past sins (and all of the new bright, shiny sparkly bedazzaled OVER THE TOP SINS) that will come to fore future times; whom are in belief of this IDEA Construct is clinically, catagorically INSANE.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Anyone who believes Jesus died and KNOWINGLY sacrificed himself for our past sins (and all of the new bright, shiny sparkly bedazzaled OVER THE TOP SINS) that will come to fore future times; whom are in belief of this IDEA Construct is clinically, catagorically INSANE.

Someone offers you an all expenses paid trip to paradise FOREVER and you turn it down.

THAT is the real meaning of insane.

Originally posted by Murgatroid

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Anyone who believes Jesus died and KNOWINGLY sacrificed himself for our past sins (and all of the new bright, shiny sparkly bedazzaled OVER THE TOP SINS) that will come to fore future times; whom are in belief of this IDEA Construct is clinically, catagorically INSANE.

Someone offers you an all expenses paid trip to paradise FOREVER and you turn it down.

THAT is the real meaning of insane.

You can never trust the Nigerians, and those cruise ships to Mars, who would ever believe that was possible; they are scammers extraordinare; next door neighbor booked a cruise to Saturn (youd think somehow the Sicilians snuck in and body snatched inserted these wild ideas 50 years ago into a willing African state before the downfall of their mobsterwaywackyness). Paradise? I did not see that destination in the brochure. That would be a one way ticket?

reply to post by Murgatroid

Isaac was a ‘type’ of Christ that paints a picture of the true one to come.

If he is, then it is something that people have come up with on their own because it never says so either explicitly, or implicitly, in the Bible.
The Jews did not "offer" Jesus, they murdered him, thinking that they were doing God's bidding.
If "Jesus" was in the Abraham and Issac story, I think he would have been the Angel of the Lord who stopped Abraham from going through with the murder that he was apparently intent on doing.
A lot of people think that the ram in the story is the 'type' of Jesus, which would make Issac the 'type' of us, who were saved by the ram's sacrifice.

Joseph, Moses, David, and Jonah were all men of God who also portrayed a type of Jesus.

So then is everyone in the Bible somehow a "type" of Jesus?
This is some people's idea of puzzle solving or something, to see how many correlations they can make. It may make a good children's after-church game but there is no doctrine that comes from it, according to the teachings of the Apostles as recorded in the New Testament.
The idea that Abraham demonstrated a moral equality with God is to me horrific, and goes directly against what Jesus said. The Jews, imagining their superiority by being descended from Abraham, only inherited his bad quality, of being murderers.

reply to post by ccseagull

The birth of monotheism was with Abraham

There is no reason to think that Abraham was a monotheist.
People could rationalize that he was, but they would be using false assumptions to do so.
Despite popular belief, monotheism is a fairly modern belief, and one I think was invented to counteract Christianity which believes in a plurality of individuals who make up the greater "God" who is addressed in the singular, as being united in purpose and by the nature of their being.

The fulfillment of that covenant was met in His son, Jesus. The quintessential blood sacrifice under the Old Covenant was represented in the Passover lamb.

The original Passover lamb was not a 'sacrifice', it was a meal. The blood was used as a marker on the doorpost for the angel of death to see, and to 'pass over' that house thus marked.
Later, in the time of Jesus, Passover had been ritualized to where they were making 'sacrifices' of "Passover lambs" but it was not necessarily something authorized by God.
So there was no 'offering' involved in Jesus being a lamb. Now he was called that, by John the Baptist, who said he was the lamb to take away sin. Jesus is also called "our passover". None of this makes Jesus a passover offering.
The goal of Jesus was to be "lifted up, to draw all men to him". The means to that end was to be crucified in a public way, for all to see, and that was to be killed when all the Jews from everywhere would be coming into Jerusalem for the main Jewish festival at that time, which was Passover.
My question would be, if Jesus was an 'offering', then who was offering him, and to whom?
Well, the answer is, by himself, and to no one.
Jesus died to make a point, and to judge the world and to condemn sin in it, and to bring down Satan.

Originally posted by ccseagull

Originally posted by FreeThinkerbychoice
reply to post by ccseagull

 

I can most definitely respect your viewpoint and strong sense of faith. I wish you the very best in your journey and personal discoveries.

Good things

Dear FreeThinkerbychoice - I wish you the very best as well. You have a very sweet and caring nature and that shines through. Hugs.

Hey were all in this together hey, a better world, a better life, happiness

Originally posted by jmdewey60
The original Passover lamb was not a 'sacrifice', it was a meal. The blood was used as a marker on the doorpost for the angel of death to see, and to 'pass over' that house thus marked.
Later, in the time of Jesus, Passover had been ritualized to where they were making 'sacrifices' of "Passover lambs" but it was not necessarily something authorized by God.
So there was no 'offering' involved in Jesus being a lamb. Now he was called that, by John the Baptist, who said he was the lamb to take away sin. Jesus is also called "our passover". None of this makes Jesus a passover offering.
The goal of Jesus was to be "lifted up, to draw all men to him". The means to that end was to be crucified in a public way, for all to see, and that was to be killed when all the Jews from everywhere would be coming into Jerusalem for the main Jewish festival at that time, which was Passover.
My question would be, if Jesus was an 'offering', then who was offering him, and to whom?
Well, the answer is, by himself, and to no one.
Jesus died to make a point, and to judge the world and to condemn sin in it, and to bring down Satan

Religion has lied to you.

Everything religion says is a LIE and is designed to deceive.

This is why the religious leaders attacked Jesus and demanded that He be crucified.

In every post you make you argue AGAINST God's word which is a clear sign that religious lies have infected everything you believe.

Religion ALWAYS lies because Satan is behind it.

Concerning the above quote:

Jesus did NOT die just to make a point...

That is religion talking.

Forget EVERYTHING religion is telling you!

ALL of it is a LIE!

Jesus died so that His blood would fall on the mercy seat and remove the veil between us and God.

The Bible is clear that only those whose names are written (by God) in the book of life will be saved.

And He does not write any names there that have not been washed from their sins by the Blood of His Son.

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins." -Colossians 1:14

Hebrews 9:22, "...without shedding of blood is no remission. (forgivness )"

“Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot."
-1st Peter 1:18,19

...and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1st John 1:7).

reply to post by vethumanbeing


You have been involved in sacrificial blood letting to cover sin and you call Us insane ???? What was your blood worth and to whom . You must have something bothering you a lot ! Why sacrifice the blood of ( you ) a sinner to (whom) to cover your sin . The first thing I see is that you are repentant of something the second thing I see is that you want to go the dark back ally way to your solution to resolve yourself with your sin .You, you ,you .
Jesus came down to man on earth as half man , half God to be offered as the acceptable sacrifice for sin for those who love him . Jesus lived a sinless life and GAVE his life for us . Now you are going to say he did that for nothing . His blood sacrifice was favorable to God , yours was not . Take the straight road to salvation and forgiveness through the Blood Sacrifice of the Lamb Grace and Mercy offered through Jesus Christ our Lord .
You would be surprised who will turn down Gods easy plan only to butt heads with a post to find redemption .

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

You have been involved in sacrificial blood letting to cover sin and you call Us insane ???? What was your blood worth and to whom . You must have something bothering you a lot ! Why sacrifice the blood of ( you ) a sinner to (whom) to cover your sin . The first thing I see is that you are repentant of something the second thing I see is that you want to go the dark back ally way to your solution to resolve yourself with your sin .You, you ,you .
Jesus came down to man on earth as half man , half God to be offered as the acceptable sacrifice for sin for those who love him . Jesus lived a sinless life and GAVE his life for us . Now you are going to say he did that for nothing . His blood sacrifice was favorable to God , yours was not . Take the straight road to salvation and forgiveness through the Blood Sacrifice of the Lamb Grace and Mercy offered through Jesus Christ our Lord .
You would be surprised who will turn down Gods easy plan only to butt heads with a post to find redemption .

I did exactly what Jesus did blood letting for the sinner (not my sins, yours). No repentance factor at all. I am not a sinner you are I suppose if youd like to be. No dark back allies here this was my kitchen sink, and I was not entirely in control of the circumstances, (if known, Id never have approached the right drain basin and washed that pot with a razor sharp sponge). What is the difference between Jesus's blood sacrifice and mine; except mine is more believeable as I have witnesses living in this decade. I was also aware of what kind of ritual or healing I was participating in. I am on the straight road to salvation and believe me I am dragging you there as well (if need be on your knees) to destination heaven. Favorable blood sacrifice, "It was my own blood shed" Origin to its human counterpart Feb 2013.

Please Seek Help !reply to post by vethumanbeing

reply to post by Murgatroid

In every post you make you argue AGAINST God's word which is a clear sign that religious lies have infected everything you believe.

I think you have that backwards.
I had to forget everything I was taught, and read the Bible for exactly what it says, and not what people try to make it say to support all their theories about how things are and how they should be.

Jesus died so that His blood would fall on the mercy seat and remove the veil between us and God.

Except that it doesn't actually say that.
I mean the part about his "blood falling on the mercy-seat".
Jesus enters into the heavenly temple with his own blood, that is the fulfillment of the requirement to gain entry into the most holy place.
Once "in there" something else happens and it isn't 'blood for sins' transactions taking place.
The point being made in Hebrews is that unlike the system formerly practiced in the Jewish worship cycle, what Jesus did does not need to be repeated, it stands forever and his place in the heavenly court is sure and everlasting.

. . . that have not been washed from their sins by the Blood of His Son.

The "washing from sins" is a change of lifestyle away from sin. The blood is not to somehow 'pay' for guilt. People are forgiven for their past sins when they turn to a life of righteousness. God does not demand payment, sins are simply forgotten.

Originally posted by SimonPeter
Please Seek Help !reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

Why am I not surprised, I would have thought you of all people in an attempt to help me would be standing at the front of the line offering (lambs prefered).

reply to post by vethumanbeing


You don't want help ? I was born at night , just not last night !

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

You don't want help ? I was born at night , just not last night !

Never said that never implied it. I was born at dawn and not just the first dawn. Mercury avows your wish will be granted after a reversal . "Who are we Origin?". Well as far as I can tell, we created everything, we are somnambulist idiots, we dreamed something into being, or at least tried to do so and are far from done regarding its perfection". Origin to its human counterpart March. 2013.